Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: dusty texian on July 04, 2013, 05:08:28 PM
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This has been some real fun at the ranch, and range, practicing with the 30wcf,and light load's. Have been loading 160 grn. cast bullet's over 8 grn. of Trail Boss and a LG. pistol primer. This makes a very easy on the ear's, shoulder and gun load. Was realy suprised at how accurate this combo is out to 50 yd. Have not cronographed this load . Think it would do the job real well on pest and even big pest if need. The Grandchildren can use thier 30-30's in summer practice on small game ,with this load and when they hunt this fall for big game they are comfortable with the 30-30 they have shot all summer. With .22 ammo getting hard to find these day's loading the light load 30wcf is prety handy. Here is my old thuty -thuty circa 1909, Good Shooting ....Dusty
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Dusty,
That's pretty neat! ;D That's a wonderful piece of Winchester history you have! ;D
Being somewhat of a .30 W.C.F. / .30-30 history "nut", I like to replicate the vintage cartridges of yesteryear.... stepping back in time, so to speak.
Back in 1896, Winchester introduced their .30 W.C.F. "Short Range" cartridge which they initially called their 30-6-100, "For small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary." It would have been a great plinking round as well.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/WinSR1896Cat.jpg)
Velocity was in the 1,100 - 1,200 f.p.s. range, or about like a .32-20. Several years later the bullet weight was increased to 117 grs.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/30-30ShortRangeCartridges1.jpg)
Longer story short, I have used the 100 gr RCBS and 115 gr Lyman 3118 with very good results. I found that 6 grs of 4756, Unique or Universal provided a good replication load. 6 grs. of Trail Boss also shot well with the 115 gr.bullet and provided a bit more velocity.
I then discovered that Magtech offered their 98 gr. .32 S&W bullet as a component, so I ordered a couple hundred. These bullets had a round nose which would replicate the nose profile of the original "Short Range" cartridge (the 100 RCBS has a flat nose). Since they are .314 in diameter, I ran them through my Lee .311" push through sizer. I found that 5 grs of Trail Boss was a good replication load and provided very good accuracy at 50 yards. They shoot great out of my Winchester's as well. ;D
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/target98gr.jpg)
I recently purchased the Lee 100 gr. r.n. bullet mold so more discovery ahead..........
fun, fun, fun ;D ;D ;D
w44wcf
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I have made very similar loads with LEE .30-120 mould, wrapped with Teflon tape, and 7 to 9 grains of a medium shotgun powder. They get carried around as small game rounds when out hunting. They must be tried out on the range as the POI may vary quite a bit from full power loads.
2 Aug 13; You can use this type of load with most weights of cast bullets. They work for almost all medium military or deer hunting rifles, just up the powder 2 - 3 grains and YGTG
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I think (fun fun fun) describes these load's to a "T" . I first started loading the light load's for the youngsters ,and soon found that I liked shooting these light round's as much as they do. w44wcf I found in my bullet cabinet a box of old Remington 100 grn. 310 lead bullet's ,the old red green and white box read's .32 ,and the bullet has no lube groove.but it does have a straight bearing surface and a ledge before the orgive , they look like the one in your pic of the 100's. These are lubed with some sort of sticky lube , 40 + yrs. old may have somthing to do with the sticky deal. So I loaded some of these little 100 grn. bullet's over 6 grn. of trail boss. I shot 9 of them at 50 yd. and was disapointed in the group I shot with the old 94 in the pic. above .The load was very plesant to shoot I will give the bullet another try ,and back the powder down to 5 grn. and see how accurate the 5 grn. load will be.Sir Charles deMouton Black,I have found the 160 grn. cast bullet and 8 grn. of TB. powder will shoot point of aim out to fifty yd. Have not tried them past this . Like you, I think this kind of load is very handy for wood's walking ,for the critter that the full charge 30-30 would be a little much for . .........Dusty
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Dusty,
Hopefully those vintage soft lead bullets will shoot aok with 5 grs. Most likely they are pure lead (4.2 bhn) or close to it. The Magtech 98 gr. bullets are a bit tougher at 6.0 BHN.
Hopefully they will shoot much better with 5.0 grs. Trail Boss.
Although not legal for the Pistol Cartridge category of NRA Cowboy Silhouette, they sure are fun to practice with. ;D
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Cowboy%20Silhouette/10targetsetters.jpg)
fun, fun, fun ;D ;D ;D
w44wcf
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Had a chance to load up some of the Remington 100gr. bullet's with 5gr. of TB. today. I reduced the powder charge down to 5gr. the 6gr. charge was a pleasure to shoot ,but did not produce the kind of group's I know this 1894 is capable of.Will be heading out to the ranch in a few day's ,and will be able to do some shooting there, supposed to be working on fence. May be able to try the short range load's on small game or varmint's. I loaded the 160 cast gas check over 8gr. of TB.this load is very accurate to 50 yd. in my 94's , and should do a number on small and medium game .These type load's are very handy .I can dispatch a coon or coyote while making my round's and not upset Moma Doe with her fawn ,or bother the Buck's while they chew thier cud's in the shade. Plinking load's and small game hunting ,I like it as much as any.FUN FUN FUN..........Dusty
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Look's like the 5 gn. TB. load is the ticket for the 100gr. light load in my old 94. Had a chance to shoot it during my stay at the Lucky 11 ranch this past wk. Shot the load at 45 yd. and it would keep all shot's inside a 1-1/4" group. Should be big medicine on cotton tail .........Dusty
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Dusty,
Good to hear that your vintage Winchester liked the 5 gr. loading. ;D interesting what the difference of 1 gr of powder can make.........
w44wcf
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w44wcf, the five gr.load of TB,shot very good, with the 100 gr. lead bullet . At six gr. it would throw flier's ,or more like (shoot a pattern).Dropping the charge by one gr.did the trick.Working with this small of a charge one gr. is a big deal.But I did not think it would improve that much. Glad I tried the five gr. charge . Now I have a fine small game load for the old 1894 Winchester.,,,,,Dusty
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Dusty,
That extra grain (6-5) was probably generating an additional 200 f.p.s. which appears was just a bit too much more for the soft Remington lead bullet. With a harder (wheelweight) Lyman 311008, 6 grs of TB works very well.
Unfortunately, here in PA, it is illegal to hunt small game with anything other than a shotgun and a .22 rimfire. I did use one of these rounds to dispatch a raccoon once though. Worked really well. ;D
w44wcf
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Unfortunately, here in PA, it is illegal to hunt small game with anything other than a shotgun and a .22 rimfire.
w44wcf
You mean there's a state with laws more irrational than New York? Just checked regs & found (as I thought) no mention of any such restriction here. (What I did NOT realize is that airguns are legal for small game hunting, which is a invitation to wounding, at least in the hands of the average dope hunter.) Rifles are prohibited for turkey, which makes sense to keep them from being slaughtered in open fields at 300 yds with high-power rifles, but it's a shame there isn't some provision for the use of .32 Longs, .32-20s, & similar low-power rounds.
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The .30wcf short range 100 gr. and the .32 Long Colt should be a very good choice for Rio Grande Turkey here in Tx. it is legal to take turkey with a centerfire rifle ,and unless it has just changed it is legal to also use a rimfire.22LR, on turkey , in most counties. Some of the eastern counties just a few, are shotgun only. I think like you Adirondacker ,not much sport in snipeing a turkey at long range. My personal limit's for turkey 50yd. or less .Or I pass on the shot. The fun is in the Calling, I am there for sport ,and going after the turkey and small game with the 30wcf short range100gr. and .32 LC, sound's like some fun sport to me. I can see this little 1892 Marlin becoming my small game companion.PS. I have read a very interesting article in Backwoodsman Magazine ,explaining how to reload rimfire cartridges. I think I will give this a try ,in the .32 LRF. Would be different for sure. # w44wcf, from what I have seen shooting the 100gr. lead bullet with TB. in the 30wcf, I would think it is BIG MEDICINE on coon size critter's .Will be able to try them out very soon, as I am loading up the Grandchildren for a wk. at the Lucky11 before school start,s . NOT MANY CRITTER'S ARE SAFE WHEN THEY ARE ON THE RANGE.Will post pic's. ,,,,,,Dusty
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Had good luck with 10 gr AA2 both moly koted (bear creek) and non moly hard cast 170 gr 30/30 bullets out of my Krag (new barrel )
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CPT.DB.did you apply the molly yourself or did they come that way. I have a couple can's of Mrs Molly ,I have used it on jacketed bullet's . But not lead bullet's . May give it a try.Let a 1895 Winchester get by me a couple yr. ago in 30-40 Krag. Still kickin my self for that. Could have got that rifle for 600 buck's ,was brown patina but a solid rifle with the schnable forend. Now on the lookout for a 30-40 Krag bolt gun, in original form. ,,,,,,,Dusty
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Did not self moly, bought Bear Creek already moly koted. Billy Bullets has them as well. The hard cast non moly were purchased at WR from a local Phoenix Vendor. Wow, must edit my original post as it is 10 (ten grains) not 100
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My Good Dusty T -
can you possibly relate how loud (or quiet as the case may be) the report is with these 5 gr loads? Prio to the Great Ammuniition Drought I had found the Perfect Practice Round in the .22 LR CCI Quiet round. Now I find its best to ration out the 2 boxes I have left until the Drought is relieved, and a Very Quiet .30 cal light load may be my answer ...
yhs
prof marvel
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Now I find its best to ration out the 2 boxes I have left until the Drought is relieved...
Based on the dead silence I'm hearing from the several suppliers who've had my name on their waiting lists since early last Fall, I'd say relief is not "around the corner." Heard this week of local retail store selling bricks of CCI SV at $50 ea, but I'm not quite that desperate yet...though I may be before long. Meanwhile, I'm rationing, too.
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I'll give it a try ,Professor Marvel .The report from the 5gr. TB load is more of a POP ,than a crack. These round's are very plesant to shoot,a very soft report.I think if you give them a try you will like them...Good Luck ,Good Sir,,,,,,,,Dusty
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Professor Marvel,
Yes indeed. You will really like the .30 caliber reduced loads. Any lead / cast bullet for the .32 S&W or .32-20 will work just great. ;D
Depending on the diameter one may need to run them through a .311 or .309 (depending or your rifle's preference) sizing die.
The Lee push through die below is quick and easy.
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Another (of several) .30-30 gallery / small game / plinking loads I have tried used the 90 gr. SWC Hornady bullet. Awhile back I bought a box of 500 for around $30 or thereabouts. It was well worth it. ;D
(http://www.hornady.com/store/images/T/10008.jpg)
They are .314" diameter and have shot them at that diameter in some unsized .30-30 cases that had thinner necks. ;D
To size them down to .311" I used my Lee push through sizing die which fits in a standard reloading press. I do not add the lube that comes with the kit.
(http://leeprecision.com/images/P/p-175.jpg)
They shoot great at 50 yards and cut nice caliber sized holes. ;D
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Hornady90grswc.jpg)
w44wcf
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Now that is some fine shooting. I like the look's of that bullet and group+++ ,,,,,,,Dusty
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Dusty,
Thank you. I tried them at 100 on a windless day and the accuracy held up fairly well. ;D
Folks, if you have an interest in replicating these neat .30-30 rounds there are a number of bullets to chose from.......
Most of these can be purchased....... ;D
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/90-120grcastbullets.jpg)
w30wcf
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I have used both the LEE 100 grainer and the 120 for plinking/smallgame loads. I have also used various slugs up to the 170s from LEE and Lyman. The later mostly midrange loads with Norma 200 that I have had since I started reloading in Germany.
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In John Kort's article (whatever you call it) here: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm) he explains that he dissected some vintage 30-30 cartridges and found a translucent stick type powder. Does anyone have any information on this powder? What the powder name and company was?
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My Good Monsieur Austin
Here ya go
(http://accurateshooter.net/pix/powdwid1604.jpg)
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/06/stick-flake-and-ball-do-you-know-your-powder-properties/
BTW, since 2013 I discovered the Hivernaughts were all familiar with what they called
The Load
Which is basically a reduced rifle load of 8-12 grains of most pistol powders with a light lead bullet.
Prof Marvel
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For backyard practice one can always go to the extremes of the Cat Sneeze loads. One uses a very light well lubed lead bullet and tiny amounts of powder, with a bit of TP holding it against the primer.
The most extreme Cat Sneeze I tried that uses powder is about 2 grains of Unique under a lubed round ball.
The most extreme quiet experiment I have done so far is a 115 gr lead M1 carbine cast bullet
In a case drilled out to accept shotgun primers. It was nearly silent, quieter than my air rifle, I can swear I could see the flight of the bullet, and it made for a satisfying side yard paper punching round.
I did not test for penetration as I only wanted cheap quiet paper punching trigger time on the rifle.
Quiet Roundball gallery loads allow me trigger time on the actual firearms, really magnify my mistakes in technique!
I intended to try similar experiments in .45 Colt and .45-70 but have not had the time yet.
Prof Marvel
Be careful, check that the bullet left the barrel, beware of barrel rings, etc etc
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My Good Monsieur Austin
Here ya go
(http://accurateshooter.net/pix/powdwid1604.jpg)
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/06/stick-flake-and-ball-do-you-know-your-powder-properties/
BTW, since 2013 I discovered the Hivernaughts were all familiar with what they called
The Load
Which is basically a reduced rifle load of 8-12 grains of most pistol powders with a light lead bullet.
Prof Marvel
Okay, I just wanted to clear that up about what a stick powder was but what did John mean by a "translucent" stick powder? Was this one of the Cordite, Balistite, Cannonite, Rifleite powders?
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I thought I knew what I know but knew not the thought I thought I once thought I knew....I think!! Edjumikate me!
I was trying to catch up on early smokeless powder testing with the 30-40. I kind of came to the following understanding but then wanted to review the civilian market on the 30 WCF from 1894, wish John was here :-(
After reading through what seemed like a few thousand pages of reports to The Chief of Ordinance between 1894 and 1900, I have tried to condense and simplify as much as I could.
The US Military tested many smokeless powders between 1892 and 1896. Wetteren powder had been their "Standard" base of which other powders were compared. By mid 1894 200,000lbs of Peyton powder had been used or stored for use with the .30 cal. .308 cartridges. Mostly only designated by test numbers, formulas constantly changing, it really is not known what powder designated names were actually used. At one point Leonard N7/16 looks just like Sharpshooter granulars. By 1895 Peyton powders were the powders of choice 5,000lbs more ordered. Whistler & Aspinwall specifically named and a designation W.-A. was used. By 1896 the military was still testing "Samples" from quite a few companies but had contracts (1896-1897) for three; Peyton, Dupont and W.-A. (Leonard) now controlled by Laflin & Land. Ruby was mentioned a few times but seems to have been tested in larger cannon type rifles and mortars.
1897 details more testing for the .30 and both .45 & .38 Colts. Several powders for the two later but Dupont No.1 named caught my attention. This could be the new (green can) No.1 that looks like sharpshooter and not the old No.1 (red powder keg) that is rock looking granulars. However, A few notes in 1899, I see Dupont is described as a cylindrical graphite black with dark green tinge. .053 in length and .041 in diameter. Laflin & Rand W.A. is noted with the dash removed. The .38 was using a few powders, Dupont No. 1, No. 2 as well as Laflin & Rand "Sporting Powder".
I think it would be safe to conclude that of the three powder companies under contract, the following would be used for the civilian market for the .30 caliber type cartridges.
Peyton Smokeless Rifle Powder (unknown)
Dupont No. 1 Rifle Smokeless Powder (cylindrical shape)...owes more research since my Dupont No. 1 samples are disc granulars
Laflin & Rand W.A. 30 (disc shape)
Most granular samples I have for the civilian market appear to be perforated disc powders which appear to have been popular as "Sharpshooter" smokeless powder from 1897 to 1948
Of course, the 30-30 was manufactured by Winchester in 1894 using a smokeless rifle powder of which I have yet to look for....to be continued