Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Shotguns => Topic started by: Bugscuffle on December 31, 2012, 09:09:11 PM
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I do not now own an external hammer shotgun and I am wondering about them. Here is my thought process. With external hammered shotguns you have to take the time to cock the hammers before firing. With internal hammerred shotguns you have to make the additional effort to open the action because this is what cocks the hammers. With my Stevens 311 I have to drop the shotgun down (not all the way, but some anyway to get the leverage on the barrels to open the action/cock the hammers. With an external hammer shotgun I believe that I could keep the gun up on my shoulder throughout the reloloading process ( assuming that the action will just fall open when I hit the lever. Will the time that I save opening and reshouldering the external hammered shotgun make up for the time that I spend cocking the hammers with my thumb?
And besides the external hammer shotguns look so coooool!
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How much do you want to practice?
Here's some world records and other speedsters:
External Hammers:
Badlands Bud, 3.21 Seconds : http://www.jspublications.net/records/BudSxSMule321.wmv
T Bone Dooley 3.58 seconds : http://www.spencerhoglund.com/files/Cap0010.MPG
UT Hill 3.94 seconds : http://www.jspublications.net/records/UTHillHammered394.wmv
Internal hammers:
Savage Sam, 2.64 : http://www.jspublications.net/records/SxSSavageSam2.64.wmv
Payden Kash, 2.71 : http://www.jspublications.net/records/SxSPaydenKash271.wmv
Badlands Bud, 3.04 : http://www.jspublications.net/records/Buddouble304.wmv
As you can see, for the fastest guys a hammerless is slightly faster. For the rest of us, well...
I am just about as fast (or slow) with hammered as hammerless, but I don't practice and I do take it off the shoulder.
And remember, the hammers can be pre-cocked so the extra time spent cocking the hammers is only for subsequent shots.
(more fast guy videos here: http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html )
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First, if you want to evaluate an inside hammer's speed you have picked one of the worse CAS shotguns. The 311 series was used years ago, but has fallen out of favor because the basic action tends to close when you try to reload and, if I recall, there is a solid rib between the chambers. It is simply not a fast double. You will also notice in the videos of the fast outside hammer double shooters NONE of them keep the gun on their shoulder. What makes speed with a double is how fast you can shuck the fired shells and get the new ones in the chamber. Not whether it is on your shoulder or not.
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There is a kit available to 'fix' the 311 so that it will stay open, I have read of it but not used it. I use my 311 on game and use a different SXS for CAS.
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The "kit" does not totally solve the problem. That is why you see so few of them in competition anymore.
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Thanks for the information on the hammerless shotguns. This is NOT what I expected, but now at least, I don't see a need for another shotgun and that will make my wife happy. When I first got my 311 I did the mods to it. I shortened the cocking plunger so that the gun opened up completely and replaced the hammer springs with the Wolf low tension spring set. I did not, as some people do, disable the automatic safety. I have not ever had a problem getting the safety "off" when shooting and do believe that it is a worthwhile safety item. As far as having the hammers precocked goes, I feel that this is a bit dodgey and probably unsafe. I don't think that this is something that i would want to do.
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Thanks for the information on the hammerless shotguns. This is NOT what I expected, but now at least, I don't see a need for another shotgun and that will make my wife happy. When I first got my 311 I did the mods to it. I shortened the cocking plunger so that the gun opened up completely and replaced the hammer springs with the Wolf low tension spring set. I did not, as some people do, disable the automatic safety. I have not ever had a problem getting the safety "off" when shooting and do believe that it is a worthwhile safety item. As far as having the hammers precocked goes, I feel that this is a bit dodgey and probably unsafe. I don't think that this is something that i would want to do.
If you are shooting an inside hammer gun you are already doing this as shotguns are staged "open" and empty. If your inside hammer shotgun is open, the hammers are cocked. The only difference with an outside hammer shotgun is that you can see the hammers. Absolutely not a problem.
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If you are shooting an inside hammer gun you are already doing this as shotguns are staged "open" and empty. If your outside hammer shotgun is open, the hammers are cocked. The only difference with an outside hammer shotgun is that you can see the hammers. Absolutely not a problem.
You are right up to a point Pard, but you are forgetting that MY shotgun goes on "safe" as soon as I push the top snap over to open the action. The external hammered shotgun, with the hammers cocked has no safety and IS capable of tripping the hammers with the action partly or completely open. NOT SAFE! There IS a difference.
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Bugsie; Don't overthink this. Nothing is ever entirely foolproof but I've never seen a shotgun go off on closing. In all CAS situations, and most other shooting games, the shotgun is pointed downrange at the time of closing.
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Bugsie; Don't overthink this. Nothing is ever entirely foolproof but I've never seen a shotgun go off on closing. In all CAS situations, and most other shooting games, the shotgun is pointed downrange at the time of closing.
I've never seen a shotgun explode on firing, but don't you think that we should make sure that people do not use smokeless loads in damascus barreled shotguns? Just because you have never seen a slamfire, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do everything necessary to avoid one.
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Bugsie; Apples & oranges. Foreseeability is important to your conversation. The Damascus barrel example has a fairly high degree of danger of damage, and possibly injury. The likelyhood of a gun going off on closing is almost never heard of. As I stated, don't overthink this.
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Bugsie; Apples & oranges. Foreseeability is important to your conversation. The Damascus barrel example has a fairly high degree of danger of damage, and possibly injury. The likelyhood of a gun going off on closing is almost never heard of. As I stated, don't overthink this.
Then why do we have the expression "slamfire".
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Then why do we have the expression "slamfire".
What you are talking about is NOT a slamfire. Winchester 97's and Colt Lightnings slamfire. The original discussion was about whether converting a shotgun safety to operate manually is unsafe. NO! Do you have a safety on your rifle than turns on every time you lever it or a revolver that has a safety that engages every time you cock it? A double barrel shotgun can conceivably fire if the firing pins are stuck forward and you shut the barrels briskly. No safety is going to fix that particular problem as a firing pin that is stuck forward is either a maintenance issue or a mechanical break.
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I have a Model 1897 pump, a Model 12 pump, and a 93/97 IAC pump. You can stuff 5 rounds in them, pin the trigger back and start cycling the action fast. All the rounds will "slamfire". And they will fire as fast as you can work the action.
This does not apply to S X S.
Drop a couple of live rounds in a S X S. Start closing the action. Remember the firing pins will protude momentarily maybe an 1/8th of an inch when the trigger is pulled. If the S X S fires and the action is not locked, nothing exciting will happen. Sometime back a few cowboys removed the locking mechanism and simply held them closed when fired. Ain't dangerous at all. Again, if it WILL fire, the thing is so close to closed, nothing will happen. Being so colse to closed, the hull will maiintain and the force of the shell firing will b no different if you hd the action closed.
Co-incidentally, I happen to be working on a Stevens 311. I have chopped the barrels to 20", lengthened the forcing cones, lightened the hammer springs,andpolished some stuff. I removed the small rib that goes over the locking mechanism. I removed a bunch of metal from the locking lug. Now it is a slim bar with a rounded point. Chamfered the barrels and polished the heck out of the chambers.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/redcent69/bead%20blast/GEDC0052.jpg)
As far as the action staying open, I believe I may have found cure. BTW, the "fix" for the Stevens is not for all the Stevens. The gun cocks on opening. The point where it is cocked is about 2/3 of the way of opening the barrels. I believe I can get the action to cock at the last inch or to of opening thereby relieving tension and it will stay open. I'll report back.
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You are right up to a point Pard, but you are forgetting that MY shotgun goes on "safe" as soon as I push the top snap over to open the action. The external hammered shotgun, with the hammers cocked has no safety and IS capable of tripping the hammers with the action partly or completely open. NOT SAFE! There IS a difference.
Very few internal hammer SXS's have auto safeties. If the safety is on or not. When you open the action, the hammers are cocked. That is fact.
I have seen many internal hammered SXS fire when the action is closed hard.
The safety you speak of only blocks the trigger. It will not stop the sear from slipping off a worn hammer notch when then action is closed hard & fast.
In SASS, both external and internal hammered SXS, SGs are staged, open and EMPTY. You may cock the hammers on an external hammered SG when staged open and empty. Not one thing unsafe about doing so.
There is no requirement in SASS for any so called auto "safety".
Slam fire refers to a sliding bolt type weapon.
LG
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I guess that I'm just a worry wart. We can go baack and forth on this all month long and I don't really care to go on any longer. We can all come up with reasons and scenarios where the gun wiil or casnnot fire, but where I am coming from is at EVERY match that I have been to and I have been to more than a few, I see people engage their shotgun, in other words pick it up, I see that they go straight for the grip and their fingers go into the trigger guard, ready to pull the trigger even before they get the thing loaded. I have every reason to believe that a light trigger or a heavy finger could cause an accidental firing. Next match that you attend, look to see if any of the shooters place their fingers inside the trigger guard while closing the acation.
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OK Bugs, I've been to a whole lot more matches than you have, can't remember a ND with a shotgun. How many have you seen? BTW have you shot a match yet?
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I guess that I'm just a worry wart. We can go baack and forth on this all month long and I don't really care to go on any longer. We can all come up with reasons and scenarios where the gun wiil or casnnot fire, but where I am coming from is at EVERY match that I have been to and I have been to more than a few, I see people engage their shotgun, in other words pick it up, I see that they go straight for the grip and their fingers go into the trigger guard, ready to pull the trigger even before they get the thing loaded. I have every reason to believe that a light trigger or a heavy finger could cause an accidental firing. Next match that you attend, look to see if any of the shooters place their fingers inside the trigger guard while closing the acation.
Are you going to shoots and actually shooting or just sitting around coaching?
I loved when I was running the truck pulling circuits and had spectators coming into the pit area telling drivers and mechanics how to do everything from carb/timing adjustments to air pressure.
All I can say is just get out there and try it for yourself, different things work for different people in every sport.
One thing I can say with most any sport. Don't question good competitors way of doing things but rather study and figure out why they do it that way and how they do it successfully. And if you see EVERYONE doing something the same way you can pretty much count on there being a pretty good reason for it.
Your worrying to much, sure you want to be safe about it but just get out there and have fun. If you have a safety concern ask the RO if your OK doing it that way.
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WE have redundant safety nets for a reason. :)
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The ONLY safety device that works is your BRAIN.
That is why I became an RO2 and what the TO does watch'n the shooter.
BS, after you shoot your first match you will see it's a non-issue. ;)
Don't try to fix what ain't broke.......
LG
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WE have redundant safety nets for a reason. :)
I agree with you 100% Camile. Just because it doesn't happen often, or even if it hasn’t already happened at all, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of the potential. Think of it like the “Gun Rights” issue. Congress has not yet taken our Second Amendment Rights from us, but it doesn’t mean that they might try or that we should not take action to prevent it.
Sir Charles – “Bugsie; Don't overthink this. Nothing is ever entirely foolproof but I've never seen a shotgun go off on closing.”
Lumpy – “I have seen many internal hammered SXS fire when the action is closed hard.
John Smith - OK Bugs, I've been to a whole lot more matches than you have, can't remember a ND with a shotgun.
Come on Pards, make up your minds, or is it that you just want to cast dispersions on ANYTHING that “The Liberal” says?
Red Cent – “Sometime back a few cowboys removed the locking mechanism and simply held them closed when fired. Ain't dangerous at all. Again, if it WILL fire, the thing is so close to closed, nothing will happen. Being so colse to closed, the hull will maiintain and the force of the shell firing will b no different if you hd the action closed.”
If they did do this it is the stupidest idea I’ve heard of.
Red Cent - “As far as the action staying open, I believe I may have found cure. BTW, the "fix" for the Stevens is not for all the Stevens. The point where it is cocked is about 2/3 of the way of opening the barrels. I believe I can get the action to cock at the last inch or to of opening thereby relieving tension and it will stay open. I'll report back.
If by “the action staying open”, you mean that the gun attempts to close itself after opening, you have already addressed this problem. It is a function of the overly powerful stock hammer springs. If you mean that it doesn’t open all the way or far enough so that you can easily insert the cartridges into the chambers, that is a function of the length of the cocking lever (also called the cocking plunger in other articles). Please refer to this URL: http://marauder.homestead.com/Stevens311.html . Scroll down to the bottom and access the articles indicated for complete instructions. If you want to change the place at which the hammers come to full cock and the sears engage the triggers, then you are going to have to re-cut the sear notches, NOT RECOMMENDED.
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??? ???
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??? ???
Lumpy - In the interest of being cordial and helpful to my Pards on this forum, if you will tell me what part of my response confused you I'll try to explain it to you monosyllabically, or would pictures be better?
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You crack me up.......REALLY :-*
LG
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Red Cent – “Sometime back a few cowboys removed the locking mechanism and simply held them closed when fired. Ain't dangerous at all. Again, if it WILL fire, the thing is so close to closed, nothing will happen. Being so colse to closed, the hull will maiintain and the force of the shell firing will b no different if you hd the action closed.”
If they did do this it is the stupidest idea I’ve heard of.
WOW ! You have got to be kidding me. What kind of low I.Q. person would do this ( note - low I.Q. person is a politically correct way of saying retard ). I agree with Buggs completely. How stupid. And this is allowed in the sport ??
Even wimpy cowboy shells create enough pressure to blow off part of your face. And to think someone would simply hold the barrels closed manually is absurd beyond belief. In all my years of shooting many different type of firearms, your statement regarding said is the absolute worse that I have ever heard. Such folks should not be allowed to participate under those circumstances. Complete ignorance.
Stupid is as stupid does.
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Lumpy - In the interest of being cordial and helpful to my Pards on this forum, if you will tell me what part of my response confused you I'll try to explain it to you monosyllabically, or would pictures be better?
Bugscuffle,
Your comment to Lumpy is not at all cordial. Nor was telling me I had a "hissy fit," when I called you on misquoting SASS rules.
Misquoting a rule is not at all helpful.
Now, you are trying to be helpful by telling experienced shooters who follow SASS rules how to deal with their shotguns. ::)
The way you posted here it is hard to tell what you are quoting and what are your own words. That may have led Lumpy to use the ??? emoticon. It would be helpful if you used the quote button, like I did in this post, when quoting folks.
Allie Mo
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... Sometime back a few cowboys removed the locking mechanism and simply held them closed when fired. Ain't dangerous at all. Again, if it WILL fire, the thing is so close to closed, nothing will happen. Being so colse to closed, the hull will maiintain and the force of the shell firing will b no different if you hd the action closed...
Okay Bugscuffle and Gen. Jackson,
I must agree with you about one thing. According to PaleWolf Brunelle, spokesman for the RO Committee, this is an illegal modification as (P.3 SHB), "Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict. Firearms must function in a safe manner." The following is from the TG Wire and was posted in 2009, "The Wild Bunch made a ruling at Winter Range last night affecting side by side shotguns.
It seems that some shooters have disabled the lock up feature on their sxs so the gun will never lock up when closed. Evidently this allows for faster opening in order to reload.
The Wild Bunch has decided this is an unsafe condition and no shotgun that has been so modified shall be used.
So if ya got one with the lock up removed, you're out of luck. Those who use one at Winter Range after Thursday's meeting will be MDQ'd "
Regards,
Allie Mo
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OK...I just picked up on this...
"Sometime back a few cowboys removed the locking mechanism and simply held them closed when fired"
That's NUTS ! and why was this not concidered an illegal external mod ?
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OK...I just picked up on this...
"Sometime back a few cowboys removed the locking mechanism and simply held them closed when fired"
That's NUTS ! and why was this not concidered an illegal external mod ?
It is/was. Please read my previous post.
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OK then, cooler/wise heads prevailed .... thanks
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Okay Bugscuffle and Gen. Jackson,
I must agree with you about one thing. According to PaleWolf Brunelle, spokesman for the RO Committee, this is an illegal modification as (P.3 SHB), "Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict. Firearms must function in a safe manner." The following is from the TG Wire and was posted in 2009, "The Wild Bunch made a ruling at Winter Range last night affecting side by side shotguns.
It seems that some shooters have disabled the lock up feature on their sxs so the gun will never lock up when closed. Evidently this allows for faster opening in order to reload.
The Wild Bunch has decided this is an unsafe condition and no shotgun that has been so modified shall be used.
[ ..... ]
Well that's a good thing, but you would think common sense would have won the day. Trust me on this; I know shotguns extremely well and have worked on dozens of them for trap, skeet and sporting clays. If you don't want your eyeballs blown out, or part of the upper top of your head to come up missing, then a person better make darn sure that that their SxS or O/U has a Greener crossbolt lockup or some type of under lug or they will need a neurosurgeon if they survive.
Rule of Thumb - If the monoblock does not engage the breech face with zero movement either laterally or perpendicular, then you have a problem that needs to be repaired.
Holy cow... just when you think you have heard and seen it all.
Hmmmm. I need to go get a freakin' smoke.
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Hi Folks,
I "talked" to PaleWolf about this as I could not find it listed as a MDQ in the booklets. He said, "That falls under the SDQ for "use of illegal/illegally modified" equipment." Two SDQ = a MDQ.
Regards,
Allie
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Bugscuffle,
Allie: Your comment to Lumpy is not at all cordial.
Me: It wasn’t any of your concern Allie. I was speaking to Lumpy, and he even took it in the right sense. Please see his response to this.
Allie: Nor was telling me I had a "hissy fit," when I called you on misquoting SASS rules.
Me: I was asking questions about the rules. Please go back to the beginning and read the WHOLE THING. The only part of the rules that I misquoted was when I referred to the grip as the “handle”. What you took me to task for was from two different posts. I never claimed that I ALWAYS do cut and paste from the rule book and there are other reasons besides an exact quote that quotation marks are used. So, how about we put away our pistols and go about this as adults and stop bickering? I don’t always point out your grammatical and/or punctuation errors. For example, “Your comment to Lumpy is not at all cordial. Nor was telling me I had a "hissy fit," when I called you on misquoting SASS rules. Why would you get that upset over using a wrong term? Putting the period after the word cordial and then beginning again with a sentence fragment is improper grammar. Do you see? None of us are perfect. Let’s just call a truce and learn to live with the fact that we have a Liberal living amongst us.
Allie: Misquoting a rule is not at all helpful.
Me: O.K., but is that a reason to throw a hissy?
Allie: Now, you are trying to be helpful by telling experienced shooters who follow SASS rules how to deal with their shotguns. ::)
Me: Are you referring to the suggestions that I made about the 311? If so you don’t know what you are talking about. Just because I don’t shoot matches regularly it doesn’t mean that I don’t know my ordinance. I’ll bet that all those NASCAR mechanics know their cars inside and out, but have never driven a single race. I was speaking from the experience gained in doing several of these exact same guns both for myself and others. I defy you to show me an error in what I said about them. If you are talking about the rules, please remember that I was posing questions not recommending any rules changes. There is a big difference.
Allie: The way you posted here it is hard to tell what you are quoting and what are your own words. That may have led Lumpy to use the ??? emoticon. It would be helpful if you used the quote button, like I did in this post, when quoting folks.
Me: Did you even ask Lumpy what he meant by his post, or did you just decide that you were going to tell us what he was thinking because you are clairvoyant? As I said before, look at his response. He took it in the right vein.
Allie Mo
O.K.? Can we let this drop it’s getting tedious trying to answer every knee jerk reaction to what the Liberal has to say.