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CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Johnny McCrae on December 21, 2012, 09:23:25 AM
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From the beginning I've been using Trail Boss for every cartidge I reload with the following exceptions, Clay's for my shotgun Shells and Winchester 231 for my 380 ACP rounds.
My 1873 Uberti Winchester in chambered in .45 Colt and my 1866 is in .38 Special. Trail Boss in my 1873 seems to be very dirty as compared to my 1866. Is there another powder I should consider for my 1873? If I had to do it over again, I would have got the 1873 in .44-40 WCF. I have an 1892 EMF Winchester in .44-40 and cleanup is a snap even with Black Powder.
Here are some of the other rounds I load with Trail Boss:
.38 Special, .44 Colt, .44-40 WCF, .45 Schofield, .45 ACP and .45-70 Govt.
Any suggestions as to other powder to try on the above rounds.
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There may be better choices, but here is my experience. I have used W231 in 38 Spl, 45 ACP, 44 WCF, 45 Schofield and 45 Colt. I currently use Unique for 44 WCF and it is a good choice for 45 Colt too. I use Re7 for 45-70. Re7 gives good velocity in 44WCF, but does leave some unburned powder in my rifle barrel.
There are many choices for those cartridges. Those are some of my experiences.
CC Griff
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I use Red Dot, I do not shoot light loads. My CAS loads are also my carry and hunting loads. When I used Trail Boss I had to clean after each Shoot, now not so much.
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Howdy Johnny,
Unfortunately that is the nature of the big straight walled cases and TB. I shoot TB in both rifle and pistol and yup it can get sooty. That said, I've never had trouble going 3-4 matches without cleaning. YMMV. One thing you might try is to make sure and put a good crimp on those .45 cases. It helps, but it will still be dirty.
Best Regards,
CBG
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I use Red Dot, I do not shoot light loads. My CAS loads are also my carry and hunting loads. When I used Trail Boss I had to clean after each Shoot, now not so much.
Ditto......I use Red Dot for all my smokeless stuff. I do use some Clays for different shotshell loads, but Red Dot could easily replace those too. Good Luck :)
Jefro :D Relax-Enjoy
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Howdy Gents,
Many thanks for your input. I'm going to try some of your suggestions and let you know the results. CAS City is sure a great place to get help and sound advice on a great variety of subjects!
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I use Unique and it really is cleaner than it used to be. I load cowboy loads and never really had any fouling issues..Southpaw
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I use Universal Clays, it meters well and is as clean or cleaner than most. Loads are comparable to Unique.
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TITEGROUP is great for lighter loads in large cases.
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Another vote for titegroup. That's what I use for 45 colt side match loads. My model P's shoot better groups with it. I still like Trail Boss for most smokeless CAS I do.
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Unique wont work in all of them, but it will work in most of them, and may work out to be cheaper per round than Trailboss.
Unique was MADE FOR the 45 colt... hard to go wrong there.
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Howdy Gents,
I greatly appreciate all of your input. I have W231 and Clays on hand. I'm going to see if some of my friends have any Red Dot, Unique or Titegroup they can spare for me to try out. It will be interesting to go to the range with a bunch of different loads to try out. I will keep you all posted on my results.
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Clays is a good choice since you have the powder on hand..
I've used Clays (Hodgdon Clays) for 38 special cowboy loads for years with good results. A little powder goes a long way. My typical set-up is 3.0 gr for 115 gr bullets and 2.8 gr for 130 gr bullets with the bullets being lead RNFP. I've loaded my son's 45 colt cowboy loads using 5.9 gr Clays and 200gr RNFP bullets.
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I've found to that TrailBoss is alot dirtier burning than some of the other powders I've used and still load with. It fills the case though when large capacity cases such as the 45 Colt are being loaded-one of the selling points of it. I've used all of the powders posted except Clays and found them to work very well. Unique can be a little 'dirtier' than the others, but the newer stuff is better than the old. Red Dot in the 45 Colt is a favorite, 6.0 grains works real well with either conical or SWC bullets. I started using Hodgdon's Titegroup around maybe 3 yrs ago for the 45 Colt and have had good results. One of Hodgdon's selling pts on it is that it was developed not to be sensitive to powder position in large cases such as the 45 Colt, 5.0-6.0 grains of it works well. Win. 231 or Hodgdon HP-38 will work, but they are better in the 45 ACP, suppose to be a little more case sensitive to powder position. Still load TrailBoss in the 45 Colt due to my personal 'glich' of liking to load using a variety of powders, never settling on one or two, even though I've tried 'to clean up my act'!
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I've used Clays in the 38 special with good results.
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Picked up a bottle of Unique today to try out in addition to the W231 and Clays on hand.
Had to wait in line one half hour to get to the checkout counter at Cabella's. I've never seen anything like it!
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Ifin' I had only one pistol powder to load with, me thinks it would be Unique. They named it right, it's 'Unique' to most all calibers. Will work even in some reduced rifle loads from the .223 to the 30/06 and beyond!!! I've used it in 303 British, 30/06, and 8mm Mauser loads with cast lead bullets(also Red Dot).
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I love trailboss in both my 45 colt and 45-70 modern lever gun for plinking and target shooting. I've used Unique, Universal Clays, TiteGroup, Bullseye, AA#2 and HP-38 as well as black powder by various makers. My 45-70 for working loads depending on the bullet, I use IMR 3031, IMR 4198 and RL-7. My 45 Colt Rossi Rifle I use a 290 to 300 gr bullet with Lil'Gun. I use Clays and Black Powder in my shot guns. Trailboss is a bit sooty but compared to black powder it is fairly clean and no need I've found to clean until the end of the day. I find Unique about the same also.
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Allant's website say's 9.5 grains of Unique for a 200 grain LSWC in a .45 Colt round. I'm using a 200 grain RNFP and thought I'd start out with 9.0 grains on Unique.
IMR's website say's 5.9 grains of W231 and 4.6 grains of Clays as starting loads for 200 grain RNFP .45 Colt rounds. Currently I put 5.7 grains of Trail Boss in my 200 grain RNFP .45 Colt rounds.
I'm going to load some up later on today.
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The Lyman manual #49 starts W231 at 7.4 grains with a max of 8.3. For Clays, they give 5.6 as a start and 6.3 as a max with a 200 grain lead bullet.
CC Griff
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I need to ask a basic question. When I started reloading in 2007 I did a lot of reading and pretty much taught myself how to reload. I bought the "Complete Reloading Guide" by John & Robert Traister. I've read most of it several times but I go to the powder manufacturer's websites when looking for load data. I usually start around the minimum load specified by the manufacturer and go from there. Is the powder manufacturer's recommendations the data to use?
For the first three years I used Trail Boss for everything. Now that I'm trying several different powders I want be sure I'm looking in the right area for load data.
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Generally, powder maker's data is a good source. IMR, though, lists its lead bullet loads under "cowboy action data", which are reduced loads. Data from other sources, like Lyman, can offer more substantial loads. I try to compare sources and pay attention to listed pressure levels. I note that IMR has CUP levels in the 9500 range for lead bullets and 14000 range for jacketed bullets. The goals of those loads are clearly different. I prefer full-power loads.
CC Griff
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9.0 of unique will be a 'hot' load.
Back it down to 6.5-7.0 and use a firm crimp.
I use Unique for all of my SASS/CAS loads including shotgun.
LG
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Just got back from the range.
I tried three different powders all with 200 grain RNFP bullets (5-rounds each) in the following order:
1) UNIQUE: 7.0 grains then 8.0 grains then 8.5 grains then 9.0 grains. I had some with 9.5 grain loads that I did not shoot.
These rounds were definitely cleaner then Trail Boss. Lumpy was right on. 9.0 grains is a hot load. 7.0 grains felt very close to the 5.7 grain Trail Boss loads I've been using.
2) W231: 5.9 grains 3) CLAYS: 4.6 grains
Both W231and Clays were somewhat cleaner than Trail Boss. Both of the above loads felt close to 5.7 grain Trail Boss loads.
I finished up with some of my usual 5.7 grain Trail Boss loads which were dirtier. I'm going to try some more Unique with 7.0 grains.
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In the .44 mags I shoot in SASS/CAS. I'm run'n 6.5 Unique w/240rnfp and this load shoots very, very well.
With your .45 Colt, I would up the bullet weight to 220-230gn and try 6.5-7.0gn of Unique. Remember to use a firm crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
LG
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Mr McCrae, here's some data that you may find interesting. 45 Colt chronograph results for a 5 1/2" Colt.
230 grain cast 6.9 grains of Winchester 231, 150 fed primer.
781 fps extreme spread 115.1 fps
230 grain cast 5.3 grains of Hodgen Clays, 150 fed primer.
720 fps extreme spread 83 fps
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WOW :o That is allot of ES.
How many rounds did you fire?
All the same make of brass?
How fresh is the battery in your crono?
LG
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Howdy Gents,
Thanks again for all of your input.
I picked up a Lyman #49 Manual today at Cabella's. There was a line to the checkout counters almost the length of the store. It was worth the wait. Lots of extra information in the Lyman Manual.
I have a few 250 grain RNFP bullets on hand that I will try with my next lot of 200 grain bullets (Unique powder). I use a LEE factory crimp in every round I reload except for the .38 Specials in my LEE Pro 1000.
I'm going to consider getting myself a Chronograph.
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LG
I shoot 10 rounds over my Pact for any new load. The 45 colt is loaded in Winchester brass and I use a Lee factory crimp as a seperate op. Battery is fresh and I've learned years ago to keep a spare handy. An example of black powder use in a Sharps came out like this.
50 X 2.5"
88.5 grains 1FG GOEX compressed, 657 grain round nose cast 1-25, Bell case, CCI 250 primer, .060 card
1060 fps exteme spread 19.9 fps
45/70 gives simular results
With smokeless I generaly see bigger spead then black powder. Another example is 22-250 with every thing the same but powder.
36 grains 4064 powder e.s. 42.1 fps
35 grains 4895 powder e.s. 117.0 fps
Johnny
Concider the Pact chonograph. I've had mine for near 20 years with no problems and it has some dandy features.
You'll fine the 250 grain bullets hit higher but you problely know that already.
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The ES on smokeless powder is why, until very recently, you could get better groups shooting BP than smokeless at long ranges.
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That plays a huge factor in accuracy from what I've found. I'm convinced that is why my CAS guns are more accurate with BP loads and why the C&B revolvers are so accurate. I have noticed my smokeless cowboy action loads do have a lot of ES.
When working up loads for hunting rifles and handguns ES is one of the things I pay closest attention too.
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Here is an update of my working with Unique powder. I'd like to mention a few things first. Although I've reloaded just about 40,000 rounds since 2007, I do not consider myself an expert or authority by any means on reloading. I taught myself how to reload and most of my reloading has been pretty straight forward. Up until recently all of my reloads have been for Cowboy Action Shooting (.38 Special, .44-40 WCF, .45 Colt, .45-70 Govt. etc.). The only powders I used were Trail Boss for the cartridges and Clays for my shotgun shells. Several months ago I started using W231 for my 380. I've found all of the recipes for the above on the IMR website
I'm sure glad I made this post on this Forum and here is why. What I was looking for is a cleaner burning powder than Trail Boss for my 1873 Uberti Winchester (.45 colt). When I went to the Alliant website to lookup the charge for Unique in .45 Colt for a 200 grain bullet, it said 9.5 grains for a 200 grain LSWC bullet and 8.5 grains for 230 grain RCBS mold #82308 bullet. I purchased a Lyman 49th Edition manual and it said 8.6 to 9.6 grains for a 200 grain #2 Alloy bullet. I took the advice given to me here on this forum and went to the range with the following rounds to test: 7.0 grains, 8.0 grains, 8.5 grains, 9.0 grains and 9.5 grains of Unique and a 200 grain RNFP bullet. I did not fire the 9.5 grain loads as IMHO they would have been too hot. IMHO 7.0 grains seemed to be just about right as these felt close to my Trail Boss rounds. Yesterday I went to the range with (50) rounds loaded with 7.0 grains of Unique. They worked fine and the accuracy was comparable to my Trail Boss rounds. One thing I did notice is that when the round fired I would feel some type of grit hitting my forehead lightly. This happened on my initial tests also. I then fired some Trail Boss rounds and did not notice this. I'm wondering what this could have been? The Unique does appear to be a cleaner burning powder but for now I'm going to stick with Trail Boss for my .45 Colt Cartridges.
I did try some Unique in my 1911 yesterday also. I tried (50) rounds with 5.0 grains and a 230 RN .45 ACP lead bullet. Alliant’s website says 5.8 grains for a 230 rain LRN Speer bullet. Lyman says 5.5 to 7.3 grains for a 225 grain #2 alloy bullet. There seems to be a fair difference between Alliant and Lyman. 5.0 grains seemed to be just about right IMHO. Does anyone use Unique for .45 ACP? How would Unique work in a 9mm round? My son just bought a 9mm for his wife and I want to do some reloading for him.
When I say a round feels similar to another or hot, it's just by my own feel. I'm seriously considering a Chronograph..
Again I'm sure glad I made this post. I learned some valuable lessons about powder selection and selecting powder charges to try. To me its looks like the best source of information is a Forum like this from people who have actual experience with these various combinations.
I’d like to thank everyone for their excellent help and advice given to me.
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Personally I load 7.3 grs of Unique and found that perfect for me with 200 RNFP for rifles and pistols......
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I use Bullseye in 45 ACP.............
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I tried 6.5gr.s of trail Boss in my .45 schofield spencer. it's all right with either a 200gr rifle bullet or a 250-260 gr rifle bullet. they were pretty accurate, today i loaded the same bullets with Titegroup I did a few with unique and they worked just fine also. anyone else reloading the .45 schofield in a spencer. and how do you tell if there is too much pressure in a spencer??flat primer or when you come home wearing the lever and loading block????
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I've been shooting .45 S&W (Schofield) rounds in my pistols for the last two two years. I use 4.2 grains of Trail Boss with a 200 grain RNFP bullet and Starline brass. IMR's website says 4.0 to 5.0 grains and Lyman says 4.2 to 5.7 grains. 4.2 grains seems to work pretty good IMHO.