Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Spencer Shooting Society => Topic started by: ndnchf on July 29, 2011, 11:59:09 AM
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Since .56-50 Starline brass is sold out everywhere I've looked, I email Starline and asked when the next production run would be. Here is their response:
"Sorry we do not have a date as to when we will do a run of the 56-50 cases. Please check back in a couple of months.
Thank You
Debbie Customer Service"
Needless to say, I'm disappointed in their answer :'( With a new Taylors .56-50 Infantry rifle due to arrive next month, i seem to be in a fix for the appropriate Starline brass.
if anyone can spare a few, I'd be happy to buy some.
Thanks,
Steve
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This is what Starline has posted on their web site.
56-50 Spencer (Taylor's) Brass (Large Rifle primer) 1.151"-1.157
Backordered expected availability: NEXT RUN WHEN SUFFICIENT BACKORDER ACHIEVED )
The 56-50 Spencer (Taylor's) was built to C.I.P. specifications for operation in the Taylor Arms 56-50 Spencer. Rim diameter is .629" to .632", which may be too small to eject properly in some originals. Rim thickness is .057" to .061". Thickness of wall at mouth is .0125" average. Case mouth may need to be annealed if not sealing properly with low pressure loads. Maximum bullet seating depth is .375".
MIDWAY ON-LINE CATALOG
Starline Brass 56-50 SpencerProduct #: 311437Manufacturer #: 56-50 Spencer (20)Product Family #: 941184648
5 stars Read Reviews (2) Write a Review
Box of:
100
20100Finish:
Brass
BrassSelect: Box of, Finish 20; Brass; Out of Stock, No Backorder; $28.99 100; Brass; Out of Stock, No Backorder; $108.99
Status:Out of Stock, No Backorder
Date expected in stock: 8/9/2011
$108.99
GRAf & Sons & TRACK OF THE WOLF is also back ordered 56-50 Starline Brass:
Have you tried HUNTINGTON DIE SPECIALTIES ??
CALL RHEM AT: 1-866-735-6237
Items 56-50 Spencer Starline brass cartridge rifle cases for the discriminating handloader.
$26.98 x = $26.98
Two Flints
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No good at HUNTINGTON's - I just called (3:30pm CDT)
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Thanks guys. I've been looking pretty hard, but coming up empty. There are a couple boxes of loaded ammo on Gunbroker, but they are pretty pricey. One listing is with TenX brass. Does anyone know if this brass is for originals or Taylors?
I have some extra .50-95 Jamison and TenX brass for my 1876 Winchester that may work with some cutting, trimming and sizing. I also have some Starline .50 Alaskan brass. The head diameter on all 3 are .445" - .455" as is. The rim diameter are as follows:
Jaminson .50-95: .625"
TenX .50-95: .615"
Starline .50 Alaskan: .603"
This .50-95 brass was pretty pricey, so I don't want to cut up a lot of it, but would use some. The .50 Alaskan is pretty cheap, but the rim may be too small. Hmmmm what do you guys think?
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This info is from a former? member of SSS, but one who knows his Spencer loads. This is posted to answer Ndnchf's question about Ten-X ammo and Taylor's Spencers. ;D Thanks T.L. ;D Two Flints
Ten-X is great ammo. They helped Taylor's with the development of the modern 56-50 for Armisport. I used their ammo (as well as my reloads) in the article I wrote for the cowboy Chronicle about the 56-50 Taylor's. Here is an excerpt from my original draft:
...Loads Used:
1) 37.5 grains (volume) Triple 7 w/ 350 grn, .512 diameter Ken’s Ten-X bullet: Starline brass,
CCI Magnum Rifle Primer (about 1,250 fps)
2) KEN’S TEN-X 350 grain Smokeless (about 1,300 fps)
3) KEN’S TEN-X 350 grain Black Powder Substitute (about 1,100 fps)
At The Range:
I managed to break free from about 20+ hours of work on the ranch one weekend and shoot the Taylor's Spencer 56-50 for the first time. I used Ken's TEN-X loads and my BP substitute (Triple 7) loads. I set up at 25 yards, as I have lost my spectacles and can't see well at distances without them. It would not be a fair test. The first groups were uniformly to the left, so I adjusted the rear sight for windage. After I got the Spencer dialed in, I shot for group size.
Ken's BP substitute loads were fairly tame. The best group I got with them was a 1 1/4" group, dead on point of aim at 25 yards. His smokeless loads were noticeably stiffer, but shot a decent 1 3/4" group, though they shot about 2-3" left of the BP substitute loads, but at the same level.
My Triple 7 loads were the best. The Best group with them was 1" center to center, 2" above point of aim, dead in the middle of the bulls-eye. They were as stout as the smokeless, but no signs of excessive
pressure.
This is fairly decent, as the trigger pull is about 9-10 lbs and the sun was just starting to shine into my eyes. All of these loads were good enough for close in. When I get a new pair of glasses, I will try it at 50 and 100 yards. The only modification I made prior to shooting was to open the rear sight up a might for a faster acquisition of sight picture.....
...I then used the Spencer in single shot mode for the Plainsmen event, shooting clean. I single loaded each shot from the top, al-la 1870's cavalry style. In the Plainsman Match, I used Ken's Ten-X BP loads. I also used the 56-50 Taylors as a main match rifle (with the posse leader's blessing) on several stages, also shooting clean. It was a great week-end for Taylor’s .56-50
Spencers!
Also see this link. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,14525.msg184397/topicseen.html#msg184397
Two Flints
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Thanks Two Flints, that answers that question.
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Thanks to a couple helpful pards, i now have a set of CH4D A/S .56-50 dies and 100 rounds of beautiful brand new Starline brass ;D I already had a Rapine 350T mould, a Lyman 515139 mould and am emailling with Dakota Widowmaker about one of his cutdown Lee molds. Now all I need is for my rifle to arrive :)
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56-50 (and 50-70) can be made of Magtech 32 brass shotshell. They are a little narrower at the rim
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Are you talking about the regular spencer or the Armisport? If you talking about the armisport can you provide some more details?
Thanks! ;D
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I have a 1865 Burnside built Spencer carbine, with a S&S centerfire breech block.
If you shorten 32 brass shotshels, and anneal them, you can size them in a standard 56-50 die.
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jbw,
Could you give us the rim thickness and diameter, and the diameter at the head (just in front of the rim? What type of primers do these 32 gauge shellls take?
Thanks
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What type of primers do these 32 gauge shellls take?
Thanks
Large Pistol.
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It they're standard 32 ga then they should be ok rim wise. I ordered a box and will let you all know. I bet there might be some resizing issues as well.
If this works then it would be nice to have another avenue other than Starline.
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The wall thickness of the shotgun casings is less than the regular Star Line casings.Any issues with holding the bullet in the casing or crimping using the shotgun casings?Has anyone tried a 32 guage plastic hull.they're available from Grafs about $15 a hundred primed with 209 primers?
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No good on the plastic cases, I've tried many permutations. Basically the plastic hulls are too easy to deform.
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Rim thickness: 0.059" (1.62 mm), Dia, rim: 0.633" (16.08mm), dia, in front of rim: 0.567" (14.42mm).
Because of the design of the buttom, and the wall thickness, the contain 5 grs more powder.
I have had no problems crimping them to a LEE shortened bullet, (.515-400).
Using 50-70 (shortened) Starline, I had to regrind the tip of the expander die (RCBS) because of the wall thickness
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Thanks jbw. I'll be interested to hear how they work in pvtgreg's armisport.
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Keep in mind jbw is using a classic Spencer, which has a larger rim diameter than the armisport.
32 ga shells have the correct diameter so I'm betting the brass 32's might work in the armisport.
I'll let you all know.
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I just measured 3 of the new Starline brass I just got for comparison. They measure:
Rim diameter; .630"
Rim thickness: .058"
Just ahead of the rim: .559"
Case wall thickness at the mouth: .012"
So the 32 ga shells are:
.003 larger rim diameter
.001" thicker rim
.008" larger ahead of the rim
Case wall difference at the mouth? I dont have the 32 ga measurement, but I checked some magtech 12ga brass shells I have and they are .012" at the mouth also. If the 32ga are the same, then there is no difference between them and the Starline.
With full length resizing, it seems like the 32 ga shells would work in an Armisport. But only time will tell.
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The plastic 32s that Sean Thorton uses work if you resize them all the way to the rim, so I think these will as well.
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Have you tried Buffalo Arms?
PhP
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The plastic 32s that Sean Thorton uses work if you resize them all the way to the rim, so I think these will as well.
While the 32 gauge shells work fantastic for blanks they do not work for live rounds. Once the bullet is seated they become too big since the case walls are thicker than brass cases. I have loaded and tried one of these a few months ago but would not chamber in my Taylor. In the past I have made cases from .50-70 and also could be made from .50-90 brass. Buffalo Arms used to carry the brass also.
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Previous experience in shortening some cases has required that the inside of the neck had to be reamed.The brass got thicker the closer to the base it was shortened.I remember C-H/4D had the reamer dies and reamers but they were rather costly.
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I use my lathe to shorten. I use a split sleeve in the right length, and machine to the length. This way, the case is supported too.
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That's a good idea jbw. If I need to make a bunch of them, that's the way to go.
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Sean's right - I meant to say the the plastic cases will chamber as blanks when they are re sized full length
Thanks for the correction Sean
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Greetings!
Also, don't forget that if you have access to .348 WCF brass, they can be cut to length after fire-forming or expanding. Although some have trouble extracting them with the knife-blade extractors, they pop right out in the Infantry Rifles that use the Layne extractors.
Be Well!
M.T.Marfield
8-06-11
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Report - 32ga brass.
In the 56-50 Armisport Spencer with just normal resizing - no good, you can't resize it.
Shucks!
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Report - 32ga brass.
In the 56-50 Armisport Spencer with just normal resizing - no good, you can't resize it.
Shucks!
Could you elabotate on this a little? :)
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Why, what happens, it works for me: cut, anneal, oil a litlle and size.
I have used mine several times.
I use a RCBS die set.
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Revision.
Ok - after some rethought here's what I found.
1) For traditional Spencers you can cut to size and resize with lube - works well except I can see with blade extractors it would not always extract. Again this is the original Spencer.
2) For Armisport anneal and refom with a LOT of lube - I didn't think of annealing this earlier, I thought I could resize with out annealing.
Thanks for the post Jan. I admit that after I read your post I had a "Duh" moment.
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I am curious.What is the case wall thickness at the mouth of the trimmed 32g. case compared to a Starline case?
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It was thicker - I chamfered the mouth. It chambers - I ran up one without powder to see if the Armisport would have an issue.
Sorry I should have measured, I was in a hurry. This was a VERY rough test run to see if it was worth the time to try some more. For my next attempts I will measure everything and try to do a youtube or at least pictures.
So far my tentative plan is to anneal, cut, trim to length, form in a regular spencer resizer die, then reform in the Lyman armisport die. I'm sure I'll modify the steps after a few tries.
My Lord - if this works and shoots good enough, the effort will be worth it!! ;D
More to follow....
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I'll be surprised if these don't require inside neck reaming.Maybe not.
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I'm following this closely. With the non availability of Starline brass, this may be the best alternative if it works. Thanks pvt greg!
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JimBob - with my one attempt it didn't, but we will see.
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Ok - I spent the weekend before last working on this. Here's my discovery.
With annealing and using a 50-70, an original spencer 56-50 die and an Armisport 56-50 die I could resize 32 ga brass.
HOWEVER - only one of my efforts would chamber (the first one of course!). With the others I discovered the last 8th of an inch of the cartridge was too fat. Of the 25 cartridges I bough only 3 had small enough diameters to work directly after resizing.
For the rest I have a small metal lathe and was able to lathe it down so they would chamber, but I have no idea how they would stand up. The up shot is that without special tools this is not really practical.
I'm going to try 348 wcf brass next - the specs of the cartridge makes me think that after fire forming they might work much better.
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Remove the decapping pin from your sizing die.
Use a flat base on top of your loaders ram and push the case up just a tad more into the die and pop it back out with a bolt down through the top of the die.
Just a little will do ya,...Go slow....if you get a bit much it will fire form back to chamber size on firing....
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Sgt,
I did - sorry I should have said.
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Pictural story of how I do it, made of 32 mag tech, I am fortunate to have a lathe:
Make a split sleeve in the correct length
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010002r-1.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010003r-1.jpg)
The lathe, turn it down to the sleeve
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010006r-1.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010009r-1.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010010t.jpg)
This is how I anneal them, dark red hot, and tip them into the water (the ones in the water is cut down 50-70)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010012r.jpg)
Oiling
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010014r.jpg)
Sizing with the Lee die
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010017r.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010023r.jpg)
The mag tech between a cut down 50-70 and the bullet from a LEE 515 modified mould
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/jan_buchwald/Forumbilleder/P1010030r.jpg)
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Nice Jan,
I would add that this is for the Original Spencer 56-50, correct?
My experiments with 32ga brass show that to use these with Armisport Spencers you you have to bring the last 1/4" to 1/3" of the rear the rim down about .02" to .05" to fit even after running the case all the way up until the rim touches the resizing die.
Thanks - PvtGreg
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PvtGreg is correct, it is an original, Burnside made Spencer carbine
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Back to the original post:
Any update on when Starline brass will be available? My daughter ordered 250 rds for me from Track and it is on backorder. For the past 3 months they have said expect 90 days.
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According to Starline's site:
56-50 Spencer (Taylor's) Brass (Large Rifle primer) 1.151"-1.157 (Backordered expected availability: 12/09/2011 )
There are other routes - either 8mm Lebel or 32 ga Magtech Brass.
Pvt Greg
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Midway has Starline 50-70 in stock. Just got 40 of them!