Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: Niederlander on January 21, 2011, 08:48:59 PM
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Hello!
I've got two Uberti 1860 Army's I've been using with conversion cylinders, and the noses are all battered out of shape. Does anyone know of a gunsmith who can fix this? Thanks!
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Where are you located?
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The center of Nebraska (Ord). Just south of Fort Hartsuff!
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If the hammers are stock it might be cheaper just to buy new ones.
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I tried that once, and the replacements looked nothing like the originals. Thanks!
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Have you tried Run-N-Iron out of Bertrand? Don't know if that's something they'd do, but if it were me they'd be the first I asked.
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Never had a problem with Uberti hammers matching, 1851/60/61 all the same. Are you sure you got Uberti parts when you ordered them? Are the guns definitely Uberti? I even replaced the hammer in a 3rd gen Colt that was shaped wrong (Not all Colt parts were by Uberti) with an Uberti hammer that is shaped right.
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When I ordered hammers the spurs weren't even close to what the Uberti ones were. The Smith Shop used to do the repair I needed, but they evidently don't do that anymore.
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When I ordered hammers the spurs weren't even close to what the Uberti ones were. The Smith Shop used to do the repair I needed, but they evidently don't do that anymore.
Niederlander,
I need to ask the obvious question...Just who did you order those hammers from?
~Mako
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You don't necessarily need a smith to weld the hammer nose. Just someone good with a TIG welder.
I do agree with Pettifogger though. In the long run, it just may be cheaper to replace the hammers. It may also matter just "who" you ordered a hammer from. Many of the folks in "big box" outfits (Midway) don't have a clue what you need. They just look at part numbers on a computer screen and may opt for a "suitable substitute" in a pinch. You'll need to be very specific to Manufacturer and model. There are differences.
My suggestion is always VTI Gunparts.
Coffinmaker
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It would help a lot if you posted a couple of pictures. If the hammers or cylinders aren't fitted correctly they are simply going to batter again. Is this gun going to be used solely with the conversion cylinders or are you going to shoot it cap and ball?
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The Pietta Hammers have a notch (instead of a round hole) in the hammer face. This is to "park" the hammer betwwen caps. It creates a very week hammer face. It could be that your pistols are Piettas if the face is as I described.
I reweld them, reshape them and then use kasenite to reharden them. While this is not the "best" way to harden them it does hold up better than the Cyanide case that the Italians use (which is not Hardening at all). You will lose the pretty colors but the hammer will be a plum to brown color afterwards.
Shoot me an email if you want me to fix 'em!
buckoff at windstream.net
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The Pietta Hammers have a notch (instead of a round hole) in the hammer face. This is to "park" the hammer betwwen caps. It creates a very week hammer face. It could be that your pistols are Piettas if the face is as I described.
Hoof,
That is inaccurate. ALL 1860 reproductions I have ever seen have notches, not holes or ovals. That includes Uberti, Pietta, ASM Centaur and some other unknowns. The original Colt's 1860 has a notch just like your Pietta and every other reproduction.
Telling him they are Piettas is only going to confuse him. He has already correctly identified the pistols as Ubertis.
You are confusing the hammer with another Colt's model.
Regards,
Mako
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No problem with being confused. I've shot cap and ball revolvers for about twenty five years, off and on. The hammer faces on these seem to be softer than they should be. Was this ever a problem on the originals? I would think not, since they were actually case hardened instead of just colored, more or less.
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Niederlander,
Where did you get those replacement hammers from?
~Mako
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I don't remember any more, as it's been quite a while since I messed with them. I do remember they came from one of the major parts distributors. After looking at pictures of Pietta hammers, I think they may have sent me the wrong ones.
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I don't remember any more, as it's been quite a while since I messed with them. I do remember they came from one of the major parts distributors. After looking at pictures of Pietta hammers, I think they may have sent me the wrong ones.
You can't tell from a picture. The hammers look identical except for some very subtle features that differ between the two. New ones are $46 at VTI, Cimarron also sells them.
http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=15&cat=Uberti+1860+Army (http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=15&cat=Uberti+1860+Army)
They all look like this:
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/Hammer.jpg http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/Hammer2.jpg
As Flint said earlier, Uberti hammers drop right in, you obviously didn't have a Uberti hammer.
And don't think the Colt's hammers were harder, they deform more than the modern hammers do. I can show you close ups of an original.
Mako
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Hoof,
That is inaccurate. ALL 1860 reproductions I have ever seen have notches, not holes or ovals. That includes Uberti, Pietta, ASM Centaur and some other unknowns. The original Colt's 1860 has a notch just like your Pietta and every other reproduction.
Telling him they are Piettas is only going to confuse him. He has already correctly identified the pistols as Ubertis.
You are confusing the hammer with another Colt's model.
Regards,
Mako
My signature series (3rd gen Colts) have round holes..hell what do I know maybe Uberti didn't make 'em.......
Just trying to help but offer withdrawn (as usual I screwed up by offering an opinion)
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Hoof,
You're probably saying to yourself, "here he goes again..." But I need to say this, and I want to do so publically instead of by PM so that others will know I have respect for you and your experience in particular areas.
There's nothing wrong with opinions. But consider the following:
Do you ever see me post on the SCORRS board? It's not because I don't read the board, I read it every time there is a new post. For instance, I've recently been reading your posts about the conversion on the small frame revolvers. However, I do know a bit about Remington reproductions, I have a ’58, I’ve owned several, I had a ’75 and a ’90 once. But I don’t post. You should ask yourself why.
I make enough mistakes on this board and the others I do post on without spreading mayhem all over the other boards. I overlook details, misunderstand questions or make assumptions that I shouldn’t, even on the ones I limit myself to. One of my downfalls with Colt’s (and the reproductions) is that there is always an exception to the rule which continually burns me when I say something unequivocally.
However, I try to be very specific and circumspect when answering a newcomer. They have come to us (these boards) for the member’s expertise and hang on every word we say.
You admonished Driftwood last week for expressing an opinion instead of checking the facts. Maybe he thought the same thing you posted above (as usual I screwed up by offering an opinion)
when you answered him.
Please don’t hold back on your posting, you have been very helpful to me and others in areas I haven’t played in yet. For instance your pictures of the heeled bullet crimping was invaluable year before last and many other posts have been informative and I enjoy reading them. I always give you credit for ideas and things you have taught me.
However, in all of this you may have forgotten my question about whether you were a Pietta shooter or a Uberti man. I “knew” it was Pietta based on your answers over the course of several years. I asked because you did not come out and profess to primarily be a Pietta user, but I was pretty sure of it based on your past answers and observations. I sometimes avoid answering Pietta specific questions because once again I am not an expert.
That’s all.
Your friend, and sometimes student,
Mako
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I looked for the hammer I took out of my 3rd Gen Colt to check on the hole or slot question, and couldn't find it... As I am one of those who never throws anything away, I'm perplexed... Maybe it will turn up somewhere it doesn't belong and I'll make a report.
Flint
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. :P
Since we are all playing nit pickers tonight, there aren't any 3rd Gen Colt percussion revolvers.
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I'll see your nit pick and raise you one...You are being a nitpicker because you know as well as I that 3rd Gen and Colt's Signature Series are used interchangeably.
Just like we say "Military" and "Civilian" Army models. Show me where that is an official Colt's designation.
Just between nit pickers... :P
~Mako
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I'll see your nit and raise you one. There are no "3rd Gen Colts" because the Signature Series aren't Colts. They merely licensed the name "Colt" but have no association with Colt. In other words, the Colt's built using Uberti parts are vastly superior to the Signature Series Ubertis. (Open for a nit picker since some early Colt 2nd Gen parts weren't made by Uberti.)
P.S. Don't normarily inbibe. But there was two footsball games on today.
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Pettifogger,
I'll see your raise by stating Dennis Adler in his book Colt Blackpowder Reproductions & Replicas: A Collector's & Shooter's Guide explains that the Signature Series as licensed to Colt Blackpowder are considered Colt's pistols. Here is also an interesting quote directly from that book :
"...for color pictures of the 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder makes and models listed. Third Generation Colts can be found on pages 23 through 37 and pages 77, 84, 85, 86 and 94."
Notice he not only calls them Colt's pistols he calls them 3rd generation.
And I raise again by pointing out that the Colt Collectors Association has a category for both the Signature Series and the 2nd Generation Percussion Revolvers.
And now I call, with the Coup de Grace. I'm pushing it all in by pointing out Colt's Historical Services Dept. in Hartford will issue a Colt's Historical Letter for Colt's Signature Series Percusion Revolvers. I believe that one would hold up in a court of law...
8) Mako
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Shoulda went into the other bathroom to look at the BP book some more. :o All I can say is no grey box "Colt" will ever darken my safe. 8) 8) Can't figure why anyone would want to spend $200.00 to "letter" a $300.00 gun. :D :D :D Just to get even, I'm gonna put the 51 Navies (with capguards and gas shields) I tuned for Winter Range in the closet and shoot my ROAs at Winter Range. Might even use Pyrodex pellets!!!
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/P1000661.jpg)
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... Just to get even, I'm gonna put the 51 Navies (with capguards and gas shields) I tuned for Winter Range in the closet and shoot my ROAs at Winter Range. Might even use Pyrodex pellets!!!
OH MAN!!! you fight dirty!!!
You know just how to push my buttons!
:'( Mako
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Well at least I am able to liven things up here a bit!
Raven and I were complaining a couple of weeks ago about the lack of interest on the forum.........boy will he be surprised when he gets back from the SHOT show ;)
OK I stand here un-admonished and prostate myself for your amusal.........I really should not try to remember things from in the house when the gun shop is only about 30 yards from here. So I went out and looked (by the way Pettifogger I was using 3rd gen because I hate the term "Signature Series" but I did so knowing full well they are Uberti parts), and YES is the answer to Mako's question about Pietta's*, It must have been an ASM that I was thinking about, oh well CRS and all that.........
Mako, not to admonish you but Uberti had smooth faced hammers in their first guns :-) This is why I made the comment (recently working on a GU marked '51)
Along with non roll engraved cylinders w/o the "park" pins................(this time I did look and I counted 14 Uberti's in my collection of Percussion and conversions and just about twice that many newfangled cartridge Uberti's).
As to my reply directed to the OP:
It was not my intention to confuse, only offer help, and I did not say you had Pietta hammers. I only professed that Pietta's hammers were notched on the face.
*Everyone makes compromises in everything they do. I "like" the Pietta's more than the Uberti's and that goes back a number of years....maybe 35?
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You admonished Driftwood last week for expressing an opinion instead of checking the facts. Maybe he thought the same thing you posted above when you answered him.
Well I took his post as an attack. I actually held back in my admonishment :-X
I completely agree with you about exceptions and trying not to be equivocal but I NEVER jump on someone and SHOUT "your wrong". Not my nature, in fact I spend a lot of time refraining and not answering when posters want to take that attitude. That is the kind of thing that runs off the newcomer and could very well be why attendance is so poor here.
HH
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OH MAN!!! you fight dirty!!!
You know just how to push my buttons!
:'( Mako
Here is the gamer ROA. Even though the 51 is shortened and lightened and is much smaller, the ROA only weighs one ounce more. Removing the rammer and replacing the steel frame with an old 3 screw aluminum frame saved 6.6 ounces. I have a bad back and after hauling lots of metal around all day feel pretty miserable. The mods made the ROA tolerable. Now I just need to find those Pyrodex pellets I was testing a couple of years ago!
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/P1030197.jpg)
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Hoof Hearted, remember that here in cornputter land you cannot see a face or hear a voice intonation. Unless someone outright calls you a dirty @#$%%!$@^@^ (which will get them tossed from the wire) don't sweat anything. Most people are here to help and have a little fun.
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... Now I just need to find those Pyrodex pellets I was testing a couple of years ago!
STOP, just stop in the name of everything Holy Black please stop...
And I was going to tell you that '51 was pretty handsome.
Oh wow, the room is spinning...Ethyl, I'm coming...
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STOP, just stop in the name of everything Holy Black please stop...
And I was going to tell you that '51 was pretty handsome.
Oh wow, the room is spinning...Ethyl, I'm coming...
You are partially safe. I was talking to the Hodgdon people at the SHOT show and they said there is very little demand for the .44 pellets and virtually no demand for a .36 pellet so they have no intention of ever making any.
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STOP, just stop in the name of everything Holy Black please stop...
And I was going to tell you that '51 was pretty handsome.
Oh wow, the room is spinning...Ethyl, I'm coming...
Boy that could easily be taken different........
Kinda glad I cant see his "face or hear a voice intonation" :o
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Pettifogger, when those Pyrodex .44 pistol pellets came out I bought a box out of curiousity and loaded some into a few .44 Colt cartridges (snug fit) and shot them in a '72 Uberti OT. :o After a cylinder full every screw in the gun had backed out and they felt almost like a magnum!! I shot the rest in a cap 'n ball. So ended my one & only experience with Pyrodex. Immediately afterward I went to a church & repented and washed my gun in holy water. It is only with great reluctance that after even a decade I will admit to having tried Pyrodex ONCE. :D ;)
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Pettifogger, when those Pyrodex .44 pistol pellets came out I bought a box out of curiousity and loaded some into a few .44 Colt cartridges (snug fit) and shot them in a '72 Uberti OT. :o After a cylinder full every screw in the gun had backed out and they felt almost like a magnum!! I shot the rest in a cap 'n ball. So ended my one & only experience with Pyrodex. Immediately afterward I went to a church & repented and washed my gun in holy water. It is only with great reluctance that after even a decade I will admit to having tried Pyrodex ONCE. :D ;)
I had the same experience. They feel more like 60 grains than the 30 they claim.
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Hoof Hearted, PROSTATE is a gland, PROSTRATE is to lay down in homage.
J.L.
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Hoof Hearted, PROSTATE is a gland, PROSTRATE is to lay down in homage.
J.L.
Been there done both!
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Almost forgot there was an original question. I don't have a tig welder and haven't found anyone locally that wants to do or can do an occasional gun part. So, I mill down the face of the hammer and silver solder in a hardened plate. Actually do this on all Colts that I am not installing cap guards in to get rid of the slot in the hammer face as it is a contributing cause to cap problems.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/P1030203.jpg)
This hammer is actually out of an evil 2nd Gen Colt (sorry Mako, I didn't have a 3rd, although they are good candidates for experiments) that I installed factory Ruger nipples in as an experiment. The Ruger nipples are shorter than Colt nippples. So, after installing the nipples and altering the hammer to fit the Ruger nipples the caps (and theoretically fragments) are farther forward in the frame and farther away from the hammer channel. I also shortened this one to six inches and installed a .175" shotgun bead as a front sight so I can see something out there.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee241/pettifogger1/P1030207.jpg)
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Pettifogger,
That works very well. Looks good too. I'll bet most would think you had just welded them up if they didn't look on the underside of the face.
I have some pictures somewhere of the welds I had the best TIG welder I have ever met add before I even ground the face back down. Didn't even damage the color on the sides of the hammer. chucked them up, reground the face and touched the faces up with cold blue and you would never know there was a slot there. There wasn't even a witness line where the added material starts.
He's incredible, but I can't get work out of him anymore, he has a waiting list just for die and mold repair several months long. He can fix a mold gate with his micro-welding setup in an inert gas chamber and you literally just re-cut the gate and go. I wish I was 1/20th the welder he is.
We are surveying a couple more welders for my real job because we can't get anything turned fast. I have a couple more I need done and I'll try a new one out. If I find one that can do the work I'll post their information.
Oh, and 2nd Generations aren't "evil." They may actually be the best of all of the 1860s ever made because the metallurgy is better and the quality looks good. I have never owned one, but I have looked at the innards of one. I think the springs weren't Italian on the one I looked at. I was allowed to look at it after offering to clean it. I had remarked the hammer spring felt a lot better than the stock Uberti springs and asked if I could look at it. It was after a match and I didn't have a caliper or micrometer so I didn't get measurements. The hand spring and the hand looked better too.
Now "3rd Gen" Signature Models are semi evil.... They aren't any better than Ubertis, their only advantage is the markings on the pistols. Well, except for the engraving on the back of the grip. I'd change that out with a Uberti plain strap. They are semi-evil because they are like most other Colt's commemoratives just built to sell for more money without really any care in the fit or function.
Colt's makes a lot of money just on licensing fees. You could put a Colt's logo on a brick and sell it.
~Mako
Modified to remove Off Topic material
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Hoof Hearted, PROSTATE is a gland, PROSTRATE is to lay down in homage.
J.L.
That's called humor........
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I have several Ranger freinds and have seen several of their Colt 1911 Ranger commemeratives close-up and have dissassembled them as well. To say the least I am not impressed. Yes they have upgrades but the finish is not impressive and I may be an engraving snob but in my view the engraving is barely joueneyman level.
They're cool because they're Ranger guns not because they're Colts.
As for hammer noses....
How bad is the damage?
If you haven't allowed it to get real bad, pean the sides, clean-up the sides and face with a stone and casinite it!
I think we sometimes use a little overkill in our solutions to these problems.
Raven
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Removed: Off Topic
~Mako
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Hoof Hearted, if you can't laugh at a wake, it's probably not worth going to. I dig humor.
J.L.
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Mako,
Don't get me wrong, the Ranger Colt's are completely functional guns. Guns you could stake your life on!! The Rangers wouldn't stand for anything less!
As for set up they have adjustable triggers and ambi safeties and true to Ranger preference some have had the grip safety dissabled.
I don't like the finish they are not up to what I would expect from Colt and like I said before the engraving is barely journeyman level. In Colts defence they were built to a price point. The Rangers don't have a lot of money so the point of buying two is so that Rangers can sell one to a Ranger Booster to pay for both.
We were approached to build an engraved 1911 for the Rangers. They would like a Texas made gun. Which is why I was able to take them apart. Ordinarily a Ranger would never hand you one of their guns, even a friend.
Unfortunately the timing is wrong, for a run of guns for them, with the 1911 anniversary everyone is building 1911s this year and most of the parts are allready spoken for. We are also very busy, maybe next year. The cool thing for us and what would make them profitable for us is that we could sell a civilian version!
Raven
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Removed: Off Topic
~Mako
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Mako,
Seems you know much more about them than I.
I didn't critisize the design, I critisized the execution!
If you visit the Ranger Museum you will see that Rangers love engraving but most wouldn't know good engraving if it bit them in the #$%. I don't belive the Rangers that I know will take offence to that, they buy what they can afford, and don't really know much about engraving.
Much like most of our cowboy shooting pards.
If there is any more to be said on the subject we should probably start a new thread.
Sometimes I can be one of the worst about hijacking a thread. Allthough thats probably how face to face conversations go as well ::)
Raven
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If there is any more to be said on the subject we should probably start a new thread.
Sometimes I can be one of the worst about hijacking a thread. Allthough thats probably how face to face conversations go as well ::)
Raven
Raven,
You're right, we have gotten way off track and we're not even close to being on topic. I'm going to save my text in case we start that subject again somewhere else and I'm going to clean this thread up by deleting a few things that have nothing to do with percussion pistols. It's probably just things you and I have any interest in anyway. If anyone read them earlier and wants the particulars they can PM me.
Regards,
Mako