Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Spencer Shooting Society => Topic started by: Hombre on September 19, 2010, 05:37:54 PM
-
Last week I received my new Spencer in 56-50 from BAC, along with a box of Ten-x. I was quite taken with the beauty of the wood and metal on the carbine, (the best I have seen). Trying to shoot the gun was a whole nother matter. Other than the first bullet, the others in the tube would not cycle, only jam. I tried all the remedies that I have read about in the CAS City chat rooms.
Things like rounding the front top edge of the block, polishing down the cam by .027", polishing the area where the magazine enters the breech, etc. From what I have read the Ten-x is usually good at cycling. I also loaded a box of BAC JIM 513350 bullets into new Starline brass with exactly the same results. Believe it or not, the only way I am able to cycle more than one round is to remove the follower and spring. I then lower the gun and let gravity pull the bullets into the chamber as I work the lever, and it works. I have to raise the gun during the ejection part of the cycle, it works. I must look like a real moron during this operation, but at least I have a repeater and not a single shot like my Shiloh Sharps. It seems like the extractor is stabbing the ends of the bullets when I cycle with the spring in the magazine. Does any one have any thoughts on this, or have they heard of anybody only able to cycle a Spencer with the spring out of the magazine? I forgot to mention, that first bullet was the ONLY bullet in the gun when it did cycle WITH the spring. Thank you kindly.
-
I sound lick a overall cartrige lenth problem,which does not seem right if you got the amo from Ten X,but to be sure could you list the over all lenth of the cartrige and if posible a photo of the marks on the jamed cartriges,forgot the most obvious,what you are describing is caused by a missing,broken or weak cartrige guide spring
-
Thank you for responding. I don't have a camera, but after jamming the bullets a few times they look like they were chopped with a knife on the ends, almost shredded. The length of the Ten-x is their standard,about 1.50. The length of the BAC
JIM 513350 is 1.480 both have a short OAL. As I said before, I REMOVED the spring and the bullets will cycle when the barrel is tilted down, (gravity fed). With the spring IN the magazine the bullets jam. They seem to be under too much force from behind.
The spring is very normal with light tension though. Very strange.
-
Did you check the cartrige guide spring,if the cartriges are not held down by the cartrige guide the cartrige on the block will tilt upwards alowing the following cartrige to move to far forward causing jams,for me 1.5 OAL is short but others have got them to work well,I get best results between 1.58 and 1.61 although it has a lot to do with the shape of the bullet nose,I do think it will be the cartrige guide spring that is causing the problem,to check try working the action upside down if the cartrige guide is not going down onto the block when action is opend this is your problem
-
Hombe,
How many cartridges are you loading in the magazine with the spring in place? Maybe the fault lies with the spring screw that comes with all new Spencers to limit, I think to five, the number of cartridges that can be loaded. That screw can be removed to load the full compliment of cartridges for the Spencer. Just a thought.
Two Flints
-
Hombe,
How many cartridges are you loading in the magazine with the spring in place? Maybe the fault lies with the spring screw that comes with all new Spencers to limit, I think to five, the number of cartridges that can be loaded. That screw can be removed to load the full compliment of cartridges for the Spencer. Just a thought.
Two Flints
I agree with this. This may well be your problem. I doubt the ammo is the problem. I use TENX in mine with no problems, but you do need to take out the limiter.
-
Well, I took the Spencer down to the range this morning and learned a few more things. I should first say that the little rod on the follower was keeping the cartridges limited to 5 so I removed it. Now the magazine will hold 7. But for now this is a moot point because I don't use the spring or follower , as mentioned. I fired 50 rounds of JIM 513350 today and they cycled perfectly with the method I described above...no spring, just tilt, shake, and chamber a cartridge. The forked cartridge guide has excellent tension and presses down on the block in any rifle position. I had loaded up a few cut down Lee 450g. bullets with an OAL of 1.654, they have the WORST jamming tendency, it seems shorter is better. Again, the ejector stabs into the bullet tip when the gun jams. The magazine spring pushed the cartridges into it. A good sign occured during the chambering of the last 7 rounds, they didn't want to fall into the chamber with just gravity, I had to bang on the but of the gun to get them to fall in. Maybe the magazine spring will be necessary in the near future...I hope.
On a more positive side, the carbine is quite accurate, since I filed the rear sight as per Two Flints instructions...3" groups at 50 yds. I am using 22g. of 4227 with CCI magnum primers. Much blowback, I guess I'll have to anneal the Starlines, darn. Any more suggestions would be more than welcome. Thank you for all this kind attention for a new guy.
-
Hombre,
Check out this link:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30426.0.html
to see if it has any info that might help you. Also, check out the included photograph/diagram of the Spencer feeding problem.
Two Flints
-
Two Flints'
I have seen and tried everything on the link you just posted. That was BEFORE I took out the spring.
I am begining to think that repeated use might be the answer ???
I can't believe how hard you folks try to help. Thank you.
Hombre
-
Check the chamber mouth as well for burrs. Mine had significant burrs that had to be ``crocused`` that affected feeding.
-
1.654 is too long the armi sports spencers will start to jam at 1.62,In my my rifle I youse 1.6 OAL and it feeds perfectly,Fox Creek Kid mentions a very good point that aplies to all Italian replicas(they tend to have sharp edges and burs around edges)it payd to debure everything eather with a stone or vert fine wet&dry emery paper,I just made up some shorter OAL cartriges yousing the Rapine 350T bullet OAL 1.509 and in my rifle they work fine,the only other thing i can think of is the position of the extractor ,it should be pined in the lower hole for the 56-50,it also might pay to a little mor radie on the leading edge of the upper breach block if it is cuting into the bullet
-
One item not yet discussed is the need to cycle the action with a certain motion. These early repeaters and many later ones were somewhat lacking in detail in the mechanism (actually, crude comes to mind). A deliberate motion is needed, that is, opening the lever with a single quick sharp action. Closing is done the same way (you will hurt yourself doing this until you learn how, trust me). The gun often depends on gravity and inertia to allow extraction/ejection/feeding of the cartridges. This may require some practice to accomplish. This applies not only to the Spencer but to almost all lever action and pump action long guns. Lucky is the owner who gets one from the factory that works perfectly.
One response correctly states that stoning down a few sharp edges will work wonders. Mostly, these are areas that would have been smooth on the original and for economic reasons are not done on most replicas. Also look for lots of metal from the factory machining and assembly that may contribute to the action not working as required. Learn to take the rifle down and clean it and please use the proper tools to do so and do not bugger up the screw heads. If you feel that you are not up to this have a good gunsmith do it, check with fellow shooters for a recommendation. BOL, Captn Jack
-
The original Spencers feed as smooth as hot butter if the shape of the bullets is simular to the originals(shotened Lee mould,Buffalow Arms &NEI SPencer moulds)and cartrige OAL of about 1.60.If the geometry of the Armi Sports Spencers is made the same as the originals and the cartrige is as close to original in shape as posible(it has to have a flat nose)it will feed just as smooth as originals,unlick the originals the longer Lane type extractor will not alowe OAL of more than 1.62(between 1.58&1.61 seems to work best for me,I can get OALs of 1.48 to work but they are no were as smooth as the longer ones.The original Spencer went through a lot of testing to get it right and as a military arm once right those spects had to be repeated to pass inspection,so just copy original spects (1000s of hours of expermenting)and you can not go wrong
-
Howdy Guys,
Right now I am doing a series of experiments to get this carbine working properly. This would be for both CYCLING and ACCURACY. For example, the guy at Ten-x told me the bullet they use in the 56-50 is the RCBS 50-350 Cowboy as cast. I ordered this mold from BAC and when I get it I will keep the size as cast, (.513 I am told), pan lubed, wheel weights, with 777 or 4227. The theory is that the Ten-x is the way to go...it did quite well when I first fired the rifle. Since then I have used two boxes of BAC JIM 512350 with less than stellar results, (20-1alloy). I have made other changes and will report in a week or two with the results.
Hombre
-
I know people have their issues with GAD custom reloads, but the current 56-50. he makes cycle and shoot pretty nice in my 1865 carbine. If the new rifle is supposed to be made to original specs it seems they would perform well in yours. They are a bit pricey but you could order 20 and then reproduce the cartridge. I don't reload so I would be in a lot of trouble if I was having the same problem. Older reloads from GAD used to jam in my carbine but it was because the bullet diameter was larger and it would jam in the chamber/rifling, not the same problem you are having.
General Lee
-
While I belive the Armi Sports Lane type extractor is an inprovment over the original(after it is slitely blunted)it does restrict cartridge OAL to 1.61(the original will feed up to 1.70)could you give the OAL of the GAD custom reloads and the bullet diameter if posible
-
What is a GAD custom reload? My RCBS 50-530 bullet and Starline cartridge give me an OAL of 1.505 with a bullet diameter of .514, my barrel groove to groove diameter is .5135, (cerosafe casting). My gun now cycles 7 cartridges perfectly, with the magazine spring IN THE GUN. I must point the gun straight up to do this though. I still have not tested the RCBS bullet for accuracy yet. Results will be coming.
Hombre
-
"What is a GAD custom reload?"
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,29878.0.html
Just my experience, your mileage may vary. I would recommend based on my experience that you not go there.
-
Howdy Guys,
I have basically finished with my problem Armi Sport rehab. I cast a bunch of bullets with my new Lyman 50-350 cowboy mold, with wheel weights and a little tin. The bullets weighed 368g. and had a .514 diameter which I used as cast. I slugged the bore at .512". I pan lubed with a 50/50 mix of bees wax and olive oil. I loaded the starlines with 23g. of 4227 and CCI magnum primers. They basically looked and shot like Ten-x, (very accurate and clean). I will stay with this load. I did load about 20 with 777 and they shot just as well, except for the mess. I have found that the carbine cycles these bullets well with the SPRING IN, as long as the gun is tilted up at least 30 degrees or more. I still have the occassional glitch, (jam). I found using white grease liberally where the bullet leaves the magazine and enters the breech seems to help allot. I have tried every cure that I read about and listed above, except for the horrible trigger pull. Here I took someone's advice and put a shim between the lower edge of the main spring and the screw it rests on. Instead of a piece of aluminum can I used a round edge Exacto knife blade. It reduced the trigger pull dramatically. I don't even think about it anymore.
So all in all things are looking pretty good. I have come a long way with this gun in the past month. I do have one thing to say in summary...these guns should not be called Armi Sport Spencers, they should be called Armi Sport Spencer Kits.
Hombre
-
...these guns should not be called Armi Sport Spencers, they should be called Armi Sport Spencer Kits.
:D Kind of seems that way sometimes, don't it?
-
:D Kind of seems that way sometimes, don't it?
Yes its a shame that Pedersoli do not make one,they seem to care about there customers an understand how rifles work,on the upside when you finley get your AP spencer working as well as a original you will have gained a apreciation of how minor changes in desighn can make the diffrence between a briliant desighn and a shambels and gain some gunsmith skills as well
-
Hello SSS,
Several years ago I sent Armi Sports in Italy a list of SSS recommended improvements for the Spencer 56-50 ;) ;)
I think they were offended by our suggestions. They never responded to our list. And as I remember, their only comment to me was they felt their Spencers shot just fine out of the box and that no modifications were necessary ::) ::)
Two Flints
-
Two Flints,
I should have known better. Three years ago I bought a 45-70 Taylor Armi Sport Sharps that practically fell apart in
my hands, (loose screws, triggers, etc.). The Shiloh Sharps replacement was infinitly better.
BUYER BEWARE.
Hombre
-
Mine usually only has problems feeding the first round, and even that is normally overcome by slapping the lever closed smartly. I use the RCBS mold or the cut down Lee mold. Both seem to work more or less equally well... maybe a slight edge to the Lee design. When I break 100 seconds on a stage, I feel pretty good about it. ;D I had the barrel unscrew at a match a couple months ago, and had to remember to hold pressure with my left hand to keep it from happening again the rest of the match. I unscrewed it and doped it up good with blue Loc-tite when I got home and it hasn't happened again... yet.
-
Jbar4Ranch,
That reminds me. After I took the AS out of the box and worked the lever once, the barrel came loose.
I should have sent it back right then. Instead I did like you with the locktite...good so far.
Hombre
-
Hello SSS,
Several years ago I sent Armi Sports in Italy a list of SSS recommended improvements for the Spencer 56-50 ;) ;)
I think they were offended by our suggestions. They never responded to our list. And as I remember, their only comment to me was they felt their Spencers shot just fine out of the box and that no modifications were necessary ::) ::)
Two Flints
Armi Sports does seem to have a problem with the truth they stated that they cooied the desighn of an original and the bloke is interchamble(originals were made to mill spects and were rejected if they did not fit the guages)it is not though close(as are most parts)I can not undestand why a gun made on CNC machines can not be made to mill spects(this would help every one the gun would work properly ,parts could be yoused for originals and with the right twist in the rifling you could hit somthing past 50yds)In Australia people will not buy a rifle that wont shoot straight so by not taking notice of there customers I feel the company is doomed to faile,a shame because with just a few small changes they would have a gun that was as good as the originals
-
Damn! You lucky guy, you! You got the complete kit for the same price as most of got the partially assembled one! :D
-
The only way I got my Ami Sports Spencer to work properly was to copy the demitions from a original M 1865 ,it now Cycles just as smoothly as a original(you have to check weather a cartrige is being fed its that smooth)but it still needs a new barell whith a slower twist.I do licke a chalenge I also licke Colt 1877 double actions,when you have masterd the art of macking these reliable every thing elce comes easy
-
Yesterday I took the Spencer to the range with 50 freshly loaded cartridges. All 50 cycled perfectly, (with spring in magazine), as long as the gun is tilted up at least 30 degrees. The accuracy is good and finally centered in on the bull.
On my 48th shot the barrel came loose again. I am going to be shooting my Shiloh Sharps for a while.
-
A new Spencer owner here.This has been an interesting read.The one I purchased is from Cimarron Arms.Is anyone having problems with the barrel coming loose on these?Haven't shot it yet,still gathering up reloading supplies.
-
My Armi Sport is a Cimmaron import from Buffalo Arms. If the barrel gets loose use a strong grade of Loc Tite. It should be o.k.
Hombre
-
My Armi Sport is a Cimmaron import from Buffalo Arms. If the barrel gets loose use a strong grade of Loc Tite. It should be o.k.
Hombre
Has any any reason for the barrels coming loose been determined or a cause identified?
-
I don't know, other than typical Armi Sport workmanship. Every screw on the gun loosens eventually.
That's how you know it's an Armi Sport.
-
Hello! I went to wheelweight metal for bullets. That eliminated the feeding problem. I got the same cutting of the bullet tip by the edge of the breechblock and no suggestions changed that. Linotype bullets feed as fast as I can work the lever. It does not hurt to try the other suggestions and adjustments. Basically, you are completing the fine points that the factory should have done, but when you are finished, you will really grow to admire the little carbine. I don't have a rifle.
56/50 Iron
Hayward, Wisconsin
-
If you are still geting cuting of the bullet with WW alloy ,the leading edge of the the block is still too sharp,if it is cuting entering the chamber the cam is to highthis is presuming your loaded cartridges are the right lenth 1.58 to 1.6 inch with the bullet I use,it also pays to debure the extractor