Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Frontier Iron => Topic started by: Stophel on November 23, 2009, 01:14:35 PM
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Has anything ever come of the company that was wanting to reproduce the Merwin Hulberts? Are they still around and actually producing guns?
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Stophel, Not yet pard.But If you contact them, they will put you on an update list. Jed
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That is something I really hope flies, but as an original Merwin Hulbert owner, and looking my gun over, I just can't see how they will be able to replicate them for an affordable price. There's a lot of stuff going on in one of those little wonders. If they do make it go, I'm ordering a single action Pocket Army with the bird's head grip in ".44 1873 Winchester" and a 4 1/4 barrel if they'll do it(for legal purposes here in Canada).
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I wouldn't hold my breath - he's fishing for start-up money and that's all.
These revolvers are notoriously convoluted - and yeah, I know all about the supposed 'ease' of today's manufacturing techniques - we hash the MH question over and over.
The point is - it'd be a Merwin, Hulbert - designed for a very few shooters - 'not' a simple Ruger casting designed for mass production - and that means that no matter what, a helluva lot of hand-finishing would be required.
C&WAS shooters all 'want' certain old designs to be replicated - largely for their perusal - but none of them will be willing to pay the associated costs.
Built the way it is, ergonomically uncomfortable and a hard-recoiling piece, the revolver offers nothing to any other shooter - other than mere curiosity - and a manufacturer 'needs' to appeal to more than the miniscule number represented in C&WAS.
Hell - they can't even get a decent, correct 1875 Remington squared away for production - a Merwin, Hulbert is a lot further off...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Found the website, the price seems to start at like $1250. Given what the gun would be, that isn't bad....but I really can't see such a thing going that cheap! They don't seem to show examples of their work on the website (that I can tell). Basically it seems you would be sending them money to be a guinea pig! I wish them all the luck, but even if I had the cash I don't think I would go for it the way it stands right now. They need to have something going first.
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That's what the other threads on this topic have noted - and that price has been around for awhile - it has to've risen.
And all this for a poorly-done digitized photo lifted from another book's page - not taken from an actual example of the existing product.
Vaya,
Scouts out!
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i have been fallowing that companys web site. they talk alot about what people want, whos going to make them etc. but they don't even have a artist picture of one! just a lot of talk about whos doing this or that. they want to get you to put up money now before the first one is made. after enron. and some of the other snake oil salesmen that have been exsposed lately. i think i'll need alittle more then there word. i bought american frontier firearms when the came out. paid 600 to 700 dallars for them. they never worked right, and now there bankrupt. the pedasoli are cheaper, well made and work. these guys are going to have put up something more then a fancy web site and a load of b.s. if they want to get my money. look ,i wish them good luck, and ill buy a brace of them, if they go into production and are well made and function. but they have to work, not like a.f.f . that have visited many gunsmiths around the country, and still don't work. my pedasolis work great and have never seen a gunsmith. thats what these guys are going to have to do.gotzguns
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Buy a 'real' Merwin, Hulbert.
Seriously.
Sure, prices have risen - thanks to C&WAS folks - but they can and do turn up and some are quite reasonably priced, though an average price will buy you a new Colt.
Get a high-quality pair of replacement grips, in order to save the originals, clean it thoroughly, lube it well and use a sensible blackpowder load that doesn't exceed standard blackpowder velocities - and don't try to 'compete' with the thing, and you'll do fine.
Plus, you'll have something that's 'real' - that you can point to with pride, and speculate about what it's seen during its service life - and not a clone with no history.
Besides, should you ever part with it - you'll actually make money - and no clone does that...
Good Luck!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Does anyone know of a supplier of .44MH brass or a current case that can be resized.
Chance
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Ask this fellow - he is very good at providing reloading services, bullets and brass for other obscure and obsolete cartridges.
http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com (http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com)
His French 11m ammo has been awesome for my pair of French 1873 11mm St Etienne pistols.
I have also used his 8mm lebel ammo, 45-60, and 43 spanish while getting ready to reload those calibers.
V/r
PR
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Thanks, PR
Great site. Lead prices are really good. As an example, .375 lead ball over here in the UK ftom one distributor is around $20 per 100! Unfortunately the shipping from your side of the Pond is now prohibitive as everything is sent air mail.
Chance
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Does anyone know of a supplier of .44MH brass or a current case that can be resized.
Chance
I believe .41 magnum pistol brass can be trimmed back.
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Thanks, Slim
I'll look into that.
Chance
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No news in a long time. Has his project died the death?
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It would seem so, since the so-called 'manufacturer' hasn't produced anything beyond words.
Actually building an expensive new C&WAS weapon for a dying sport doesn't seem to be a model business plan, since so few would purchase, but providing a catalog of digitized photos and promising one in return for a non-refundable deposit is almost as good as being that Nigerian Prince we've all gotten an email from.
Caveat Emptor.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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I have a friend who is at the SHOT show this week in Las Vegas.
There is no Merwin Hulbert rep or display at the show.
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Nope...
And the couple of guys I had looking - really looked, because I knew this topic'd come up again...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Lol. Not surprised. I do feel bad for all those who sent in gifts of money.
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Nope...
And the couple of guys I had looking - really looked, because I knew this topic'd come up again...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
to echo that..I have Freeman's ( General Contractor) Exhibitor list, & master floor plan In LV
M&H are not listed nor is there a sharing Co. listed ::)
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Last year all M&H had was one shelf in a display case at someone else's booth. This year i didn't see hide nor hair of them.
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Well I'd say that whatever state they were incorporated in should be a great place to start a fraud suit. It's really a shame that people are being cheated out of what looks like a really neat design. I'd definitely bite if they'd produce the product. I'm going to need a production run seen felt and shot by others to get involved.
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I guess some things are just not meant to be. :(
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Thread on the prototype, with pics
http://www.forum.merwinhulbertco.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1761&an=0&page=0#Post1761
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/MerwinHulbertCo/IMG_0031.jpg
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Just this one in 3 years ??? ....
"Shot" IS the SHOW.... a sample in the new Products section at Shot last week in Vegas,
would have gone along way ... "seeing is believing" as they say.
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No dog in this fight, just reposting what the man said.
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Not dishing the Messenger....Story
Just questioning the HIPE... for all we know the photo is a heavily over worked original.
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I'd be surprised if it wasn't - I've seen it done before, when someone was seeking seed money for grandiose schemes.
Didn't work for them, either...
I'm going to close this thread - it serves no purpose.
Most are agreed that they'd like one - few are willing to pay the price, since they're used to big store Ruger pricing - and everyone wants to see some sold and write-ups from someone who's 'not' in the CAS system and therefore not biased, before ponying up an amount that's better spent on something with some history.
Meanwhile, any information on whatever model of 'real' Merwin, Hulbert you've managed to winkle out will be more than welcome.
Start winkling!
Scouts Out!
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I'll give him my $250 for what's there in that picture. ;D
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St. George,
I do feel that this thread might have some use as a cautionary tale to those new shooters to help prevent them from sending in "seed" money on speculative projects.
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Deadeye,
I'll give that some thought, but it won't affect the 'True Believers' out there, because for them, Hope Springs Eternal, and cautionary tales don't apply.
Probably why so many of their ancestors were sold the Brooklyn Bridge...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Well here is a link to their website, showing pics of partial prototypes as of Dec 28- it appears they have most of the parts to build 5 :
http://www.forum.merwinhulbertco.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1761&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
no updates since then ...
yhs
prof marvel
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A little update. There was a town council meeting in Glenrock where a new gentleman presented his case to the council. This gentleman (I don't recall his name but will post a link at a later date when this stuff comes out in the newspapers) is a "money fixer". He job is turning around businesses and he has the connections to pull it off because he apparently has an excellent track record of getting the job done at providing return on investment. I will save details for later but to the point; he was asked specifically about the MH revolvers. His reply was that under him, folks will get the revolvers they ordered OR they will get their money back. He stated that he would not do it any other way. There was no time frame mentioned and the inference was that the MHs will be later rather than sooner but at least that is the best news to come out for those that have paid full or partial down payments. Mike Blanc is no longer at the wheel. Mike was a good guy but had too many things stacked against him. It took a heavy toll on him personally and financially. Of course Art (who's also out) is suing everyone in sight but that is what Art does best.
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Ah well Dear Readers, it appears that the Merwin & Hulbert Saga may be drawing to a close.
After relieving Friend Art of his duties, Mike Blanc attempted to move forward with what appeared to be the build of
at least 5 prototype open tops. He had promised to keep the Faithful informed via the Merwin & Hulbert website
Forum, and appeared (at least on the forum) to be attempting to make good somehow on pistol deliveries,
even without ever demonstrating a working prototype or posting photos of any completed pistols.
But at last glance when I dropped in at the beginning of April, Mike seemed to have stopped responding around the beginning
of March.
Now, most interestingly, the Merwin and Hulbert website does not seem to be up at this time:
http://www.merwinhulbertco.com/
however we can see from Whois http://whois.domaintools.com/merwinhulbertco.com
that the domain name is still owned by
Registrant:
Sharps Rifle Company, Inc.
109 East 17th Street
Cheyenne, WY 82001
and the server IP pings as "live"
and this site shows that they had "some" traffic in the last month:
http://urlspy.co.uk/www.merwinhulbertco.com#visitors
interestingly the sharps rifle website is also unwell
http://sharpsriflecompany.com/
As is their facebook page where a fellow is asking if they exist, since he bought one of their AR clones:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Sharps-Rifle-Company/164653802115
and lastly, the Glenrock Independant reports upon the untimely demise of A-Square :
"A-Square defaults on lease–CEO closes doors, proposes new business"
Thursday, March 1, 2012 10:44 am
http://www.douglas-budget.com/glenrock/article_423700e2-63c6-11e1-b007-0019bb2963f4.html
And the town council approves Sharps taking over the lease
"Sharps Rifle Company, Inc. signs lease for former A-Square buidling"
Friday, March 30, 2012 11:43 am
http://www.douglas-budget.com/glenrock/article_d3628d36-7a8f-11e1-8d4b-001a4bcf887a.html
At least one can find "something" about Sharps Rifle out there:
http://www.truthisbinary.com/Sharp/principals.html
and yet the Town Council seems to be oblivious that A-Square, Sharps Rifle, and Merwin and Hulbert were all ... ummm.. how can I put this delicately...
Related!
That's it, we shall call them "related" .
so sad for those who sent money.
yhs
prof marvel
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P.T. Barnum's observation about some folks is as true today as it was when first quoted.
Scouts Out!
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Abraham Lincoln is supposed to have said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time." On the other hand, Bret Maverick's Daddy was quoted as sayin', "Ya can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time...an' those are mighty good odds!" :P It's too bad, as the MH would have made an interesting piece, but I doubt it could have been made for sale at even a semi-unreasonable price.
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I don't think Mike Blank ever intended to take a mans money without giving him a gun.
What I think happened is as follows:
Mike himself can not build a gun from scratch, but niether could Oliver Winchester.
Mike was told by men that have 4 and 5 axis CNC Machining Centers, that the Machines could build these Guns, and he believed them.
Men like Horace Smith, Daniel Wesson, John Browning, Bill Ruger, they could build guns, and they built successful companies. Oliver Winchester is the exception, but he had all the above (except Bill Ruger) work for him.
Mike had Art Jones working with him !
It an't easy my friends.
I do not think those who gave a deposit were fools, especially at the begining.
I did not make a deposit on a Merwin, but I did give another Old Boy a sizable (non refundable, tooling charge) to extrude some custom brass for me. He told me at the beginning there would be a 40 week wait !
I have not seen or heard from him as yet, but it's not been 40 weeks.
Maybe I will never see my Brass or my money again, was I a Fool ?
I don't think so.
A Mans honor should be priceless, I trusted him, if I get nothing, then he will have sold his honor for a few hundred bucks!
How sad :'(
Charlie
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Greetings My Dear Story -
Thanks for the photo (which was dated Monday, December 12, 2011 2:37:36 PM ) . At that time they were showing some progress, although slow, and were willing to post this & other pics which seemed to show ~ 5 prototypes in the process of being fitted and assembled
unfortunately the M&H website is still down so we just don;t know where they stand now :-(
yhs
prof marvel
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This is an epic thread that deserves a sticky. That way when the next "project" comes along asking for money upfront for a product that is barely on the drawing board we can all refer people to this thread. Lesson learned for all of us. Thanks for keeping this open St. George.
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Well pards the final product will be out this year. Everything is going to plan and the first Model open top in 45 colt will be the first model shipped. I have been contacted by the New Merwin &Helbert Company and all is solvent production is near. Nay sayers will crying where,s mine. I know mine will here soon. The finest western pistol ever made!!
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Well pards the final product will be out this year. Everything is going to plan and the first Model open top in 45 colt will be the first model shipped. I have been contacted by the New Merwin &Helbert Company and all is solvent production is near. Nay sayers will crying where,s mine. I know mine will here soon. The finest western pistol ever made!!
Pardon me for being doubtful but I'll believe it when I see it and can hold one in my own two hands.
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good luck.... Sir ( first Model open top in 45 colt is the one I'd want ! )
"I have been contacted by the New Merwin &Helbert Company and all is solvent production is near".
"Solvent" is that their word ?
sol·vent
[sol-vuhnt]
adjective
1.
able to pay all just debts. :)
2.
having the power of dissolving; causing solution. :'(
noun
3.
a substance that dissolves another to form a solution: :'(
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Pardon me for being doubtful but I'll believe it when I see it and can hold one in my own two hands.
Yep. I'm not holding my breath either. But I do want one. A 7" .45LC in Nickel would be my choice. I'm still hoping this doesn't turn out like the Bren-Ten thing with Vltor last year.
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Well pards the final product will be out this year. Everything is going to plan and the first Model open top in 45 colt will be the first model shipped. I have been contacted by the New Merwin &Helbert Company and all is solvent production is near. Nay sayers will crying where,s mine. I know mine will here soon. The finest western pistol ever made!!
LOL. Please provide a copy of whatever new information you might have.
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Darn, I was just about to post RIP and now I'll have to stock up on ammo to deal with the M&H Zombie.
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Well fowler, it is looking better for you.
You took a chance, and it might just pay off for ye.
I don't know what you ordered, but from what I can see, you are going to get one chambered in 45 Colt.
Did you purchase any of the extras, or just the basic Merwin? What caliber did you want? Do you mind telling us your order number?
When and if, you get your gun, they are going to take a loss. I have been concerned all along that every gun they deliver, at $1250.00, they will go deeper in the hole.
Someone posted an order number that indicated there might be over a thousand deposits these new folks have said they will honor!
They say there will be new pricing, and "it should be understood that the new pricing will not resemble the old.". That is good news for you. It means they will not be able to ask this new price if they give you a piece of junk. It also means that your gun will be worth more the day you receive it, than you paid.
One other thing, with this new pricing, they will not be able to sell many, actually, they might not be able to survive. So your new Merwin will be worth even more.
Keep us posted
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Leopards can change their spots. Druggies can walk away anytime. Our President is going to change things, The money I get from the tooth fairy will go a long way toward paying for my dentures. My lottery winnings using the numbers in the fortune cookie I got today will buy me the 4 M&Hs I would love to have and I might get a Sharps too.
When Cabela's has them in store I'll grab one if I like the fit and finish.
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Gents what I ordered near a year ago was a open=top 1st. model 45colt 3.5 pocket army with the skull crusher ,with scalloped cly. for carry and selfdefence. Later I will order a longer barrel assy. for action shooting. And allso I want to get a couple more M-H's down the road. Gents these will sell in the same price range as customshop Colts they will not be mass produced stamped out Rugers and Uberti,s. These will be top of line familiy heirlooms with collecter status. I will have one in my holster. My order number was over 1,100 with a $550.00 deposit last August 2011.
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http://www.merwinhulbertco.com/ We will get the MH for sure gents.
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The folks that read this web site believe they are waiting for something to.
http://www.bfro.net/
I think they have a better chance of finding what they seek.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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So when they find bigfoot he'll be packing a new made M&H.
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Sad to say but I believe more in Bigfoot than I do I M&H at this point in time. ::) :P
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Thank you fowler.
Charlie
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For now I am packing a brace of 1872 uberti Open top Colts in 45 Colt. Soon I will add the M-H for hide out. Big foot packs a old M-H too . The finest western handgun ever made!
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Maybe Big Foot does carry the M+H but he was not wearing it this morning.
I saw him over at Cabela's, and he is hoping to get his picture taken with Hawkeye and some of these other boys.
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Maybe Big Foot does carry the M+H but he was not wearing it this morning.
I saw him over at Cabela's, and he is hoping to get his picture taken with Hawkeye and some of these other boys.
Which Cabela's is the Cuz' at now?!
Yeti
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Well gents my order has been in since August 2011 with a $550 deposit of commitment for the finest western handgun that will ever be made. Merwin &Hulbert will be in my hand and holster pards. He -Haw!!!!
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Greetings Dear Readers , here is some info For your further reading entertainment:
Let us begin with a brief recap of the Merwin & Hulbert Replica Company, without too much refernce to the current
ummm .... dissolution and reconfiguration of the "corporate structure"
This is what I have been able to glean from old forums, links, etc.
The website /http://merwinhulbertco.com/ "existed" as early as 2004 but only showed a "Go-Daddy" place holder until
© 2007 Merwin Hulbert & Co.
the original website was opened sometyime in 2007 and had several discussions in the forums.
Jan 2008:
The website as we knew it appeared at least by Jan 2008
We first see signs of activity ~ Oct 2008 on their original website, taking "subscription orders" and non-refundable deposits.
December 2008:
The online order system went live ~ December 2008 and discussion on various Cowboy forums began...
2009:
Ads in various magazines, orders taken. Only image available was a CAD image.
many promises, much beating of chests regarding integrity and honor
Mid 2010:
shipping was "supposed to " occurr sometime in 2010,
by October, M&H was going to have working examples at Shot Show 2011 and start shipping by July
still not even one example of a working prototype
Only image of a revolver is still the CAD image
The Beating Of Chests continues.
Jan 2011
No pistols at the shotshow
by November, CAS City members were posting "Well, it's been 1 year to the date when they said the guns would be delivered"
by the end of the year2011 cell phone photos of a handful of proto parts were shown.
still no completed revolver.
Jan 2012
No appearance at the Shot Show
Sometime in February- March, dissolution begins.
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Now for
"Just The Facts"
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Here are some published docs and Newspaper articles:
From
http://www.douglas-budget.com/glenrock/article_d3628d36-7a8f-11e1-8d4b-001a4bcf887a.html
Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:43 am | Updated: 10:25 am, Thu Apr 5, 2012.
snip:
"In contrast, the new agreement with Sharps will give the option to purchase for the same price of $750,000 after only three years on the condition that the company employ only eight people for a 12 month period. The company’s monthly rent payments will be applied toward the purchase price if the company elects to do so, but the option to purchase is only available during the initial seven year lease term which goes into effect May 1, 2012, ending April 30, 2019.
Council has agreed to CEO Kevin Tierney’s request to defer rent payments for six months, allowing him time to gain investors and equity. After six months, it was agreed that Tierney will not only pay the town for the six months of deferred rent, utilities and property taxes, but he will make an advance payment on the next six months of rent as well."
---------------------------
Here are the lease details:
http://www.glenrock.org/vertical/sites/%7BA6FCC76E-AB91-4180-9161-6D53BC40A04C%7D/uploads/Sharps_Lease_Agreement.pdf
For details of the new company look here
http://www.truthisbinary.com/Sharp/documents/DocIndex.html
http://www.truthisbinary.com/Sharp/documents/Execsummary.html
http://www.truthisbinary.com/Sharp/what.html
http://www.truthisbinary.com/Sharp/principals.html
http://www.truthisbinary.com/Sharp/facility.html
It appears to me that everything is based on obtaining the new funding.
If you fill out the nondisclosure agreement, it appears you will be granted access to some further details.
then read these:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87204011/Merwin-Hulbert-Memorandum-3-28-12
Snips:
3.It is specifically planned, budgeted and in the process of being executed that Merwin will begin making
the New Merwin Hulbert ‘Pocket Army’ Revolver as soon as funding is complete. The first production prototype parts
are being made now and finished production prototypes are soon to be scheduled for testing at an independent
ballistics laboratory.Certain members of the Gun Writers community are also scheduled to receive these production
prototypes for their own testing.
...
5.By way of this writing it should be understood that if you deposited monies with the, now defunct, “old Merwin Company”
for a Merwin Hulbert Revolver at the original then advertised price,your order will be honored. Merwin will not be able to
deliver any configuration or caliber other than the barrel lengths or caliber mentioned in number 3 above.The new
Company has what it believes to be a complete set of records of orders and deposits taken.
...
11.The first production guns will be shipped to those that made deposits in the order that they were taken. New orders will
be taken as soon as production begins and an announcement to that effect will be posted to the soon-to-bere-launched web site. Pricing for new orders will also be posted at that time and it should be understood that the new pricing will not resemble the old.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87203859/Sharps-Rifle-Company-Inc-Introduction-Document
dated March15, 2012
snips:
Mr. Tierney and Mr. Martin have completed the necessary documentation in order to raise the $1,300,000 in investment
inSharps Rifle Company, Inc. and have begun making presentations to potential investors.Once the necessary capital
has been secured by the new Sharps Rifle Company, Inc., Mr. Tierney and Mr. Martin will immediately implement
Phase I of the business plan and begin the production,sale andshipmentof the Merwin Hulbert revolvers andthe Sharps
Relia-Bolt from its facility inGlenrock, WY.
Imprtant Snips From the above Sharps Rifle doco dated March 28, 2012 :
" ... will begin making the New Merwin Hulbert ‘Pocket Army’ Revolver as soon as funding is complete."
" The first production prototype parts are being made now..."
Conjecture:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- I see no commitments to any dates, except for payback of the 6months deferred lease the Glenrock, WY.
- It appears that Sharps Rifle has 6 months from the date of the lease agreement to secure above funding and pay back the
6 months deffered rent or they default on the lease and forfit their equipment
- It appears that no work would begin until the initial $1.3 mill investment is secured.
- since there is no funding yet, and it appears that production will not start until the funding is secured, most production tooling & parts most likely do not yet exist
- We have not yet seen any photos of any completed or operational prototypes, thus it is uncertain how far along or functional they may be.
If all goes well, and the required investor funding is obtained, production might start 6 months (or after) from the start of lease (May 1, 2012) altho the only commitment on paper appears to be the payback of the deferred lease. This is based on the above
Sharp's Rifle doc " ... will begin making the New Merwin Hulbert ‘Pocket Army’ Revolver as soon as funding is complete."
The rest is not "committments" so much as "plans".
Shipment of Production firearms would also depend on
- Hiring new staffing (since everyone has been let go),
- the bugs worked out of the 5 hand assembled prototypes (for which we have only seen some loose parts),
- Production tooling acquisition/setup,
- Training of new Production Manufacturing Staff, QA staff, and Repair Staff
- the transition of the bug-free "prototype" into production
Read the doco, draw your own conclusions
good luck to all involved.
yhs
prof marvel
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None of the Bigfoot photos I have seen show him wearing a gunbelt or shoulder holster.
Do you suppose he carries his Pocket Army in an inside-the-pants holster?
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One heck of a write up professor. I'm not seeing too much there that would make me want to send them one red cent if my money. I'll stick with my schofields and colt clones. At least they aren't made of smoke, promises and dreams. To me that makes them the best damn guns money can buy. ;)
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Ah My Good RickB -
I am getting older and grumpier, and fickle in my consumer habits:
- I do not want to buy anything unless they are in full prodction and has passed the 1 year "litmus test" & shakeout.
- I want to be able to see several of the item in a showcase, select the one I like out of the lot, drop my cash on the counter, and walk away with it in my hands.
- I want to see a fully stocked & operational warrenty & repair facility with well trained & competant staff
- When delivery times are stated, I expect them to be met.
I *do not* want to have to buy 1 to use and 2 junkers for parts. Been there too often as an exuberant youth.
When hard and direct questions are asked of the manufacturor, I *do not* want to hear hyberbole, diversions, snake oil, or "chest beatings" regard their integrity - those are indicative of "bad news". I want direct answers to direct questions.
As an informed consumer I do not consider these things too much to ask for, and If I do not get them I will not have confidence in the vendor, and will vote will my dollars by taking my money elsewhere. I do not think it much of a hardship to do so, and at worst, I only risk not being the "only one on the block" to have whatever toy that may be.
In my zealous pursuit of hard facts, I am perfectly willing to share my findings.
yhs
prof marvel
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No orders taken till production is in full swing. Over 1100 are preorderd. These will be top notch,top drawer pistols not Uberti,s or lesser brands. I will have one in my hand soon and thats this year Gents. These cost alot to make and I would not be supprized if they sell close to $1500.
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No orders taken till production is in full swing. Over 1100 are preorderd. These will be top notch,top drawer pistols not Uberti,s or lesser brands. I will have one in my hand soon and thats this year Gents. These cost alot to make and I would not be supprized if they sell close to $1500.
So at $550.00 a pop for "preordering" that would be $605,000 at least to a company for a product that has yet to see one finished gun? WOW.
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At this point I think his multiple forum posts are just to push buttons and sit back and enjoy the rise he's getting out of all the responses.
The year is one quarter gone. They haven't even begun to tool up.
There will never be 1,100 revolvers delivered this year.
RCJ
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At this point I think his multiple forum posts are just to push buttons and sit back and enjoy the rise he's getting out of all the responses.
The year is one quarter gone. They haven't even begun to tool up.
There will never be 1,100 revolvers delivered this year.
RCJ
A Troll on CAS city....say it isnt so!! ;D
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A troll?
Maybe even a shill - searching for the 'true believer' who'll bite on any hare-brained scheme, since they're still short of operating capital, tools and experienced workers, and if the $550.00 deposits of 1100 folks aren't enough to get that ball rolling, well, now...
'The finest western handgun that will ever be made' - interesting, since back in the day, pretty much every manufacturer eclipsed it, filling holsters with Colts and Smith & Wessons and Remingtons.
Scouts Out!
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My guess would be low-level Trollsmanship. Just judging from the lack of informed content of fowler's 22 posts as of yet, terrible spelling, punctuation, and general use of the Queen's English. A shill would have a smoother approach, and may even have at least spelled "Merwin, Hulbert and Co." correctly.
Will have to agree with the observation that MH's would have to be the finest works ever made though. The example I currently own - a Medium frame .32 in near mint condition - in my first hand opinion, blows anything I've ever seen out of the water. Other full size Merwins I've been fortunate to handle have the same standard of excellence. Just because more holsters were filled with Colts, Smiths, and Remingtons doesn't mean they were inferior. Price point and brand recognition have always been the name of the game.
Oh yes... I almost forgot. ;D HEE HAW!!!
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I think we will have to wait for the THIRD INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION;
http://www.economist.com/node/21552901
The likely use of printing technology to manufacture mechanical devices in the future will make items like the Merwin, Hulbert a commonplace. There was a recent thread in the Spencer Shooting Society on this technology.
It is more likely than scientists being able to create new species like the Chupacabra so we can have a stylish way of packing said Xerox copy of the MH.
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I think we will have to wait for the THIRD INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION;
http://www.economist.com/node/21552901
The likely use of printing technology to manufacture mechanical devices in the future will make items like the Merwin Hulbert a commonplace. There was a recent thread in the Spencer Shooting Society on this technology.
It is more likely than scientists being able to create new species like the Chupacabra so we can have a stylish way of packing said Xerox copy of the MH.
Interesting reading Sir.
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Every Galaxy Class Star Ship has had these since 1966 ;D
Walt Disney once said " If you can dream it, you can do it "
I guess Mr. Fowler Replcator born copy will beam down any time :-\
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i really hope they make them. we need some new replicas. i wish them luck. if they are ever made and work i'll but a brace of the long barrel 44/40 nickel plated revolvers. i just think the way they have handled this whole thing has been very bad and has done nothing but make people feel its all a big scam.if they want people to trust them clean up your act and act like its not the first day in school all the time. don't tell people you are going to ship something and can't produce a single photo . quite talking about changing plans and partners. GET A PROTOTYPE FINISHED AND A PHOTO OF IT.get to work and stop wasting our and your time with endless reports of things that never seem to come to pass. kurt250
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1100 out standing orders ! To be filled at the original advertised price !
I don't see how they can do it !
That gun needs to sell for around $2250.00 !
If it is made as good as they say it's gonna be made, here in America, then that's what it's gonna cost, it could even be as high as $2750.00 !
At best, this is a limited market, and a price like that.
I do not believe, this Puppy will hunt.
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Not troll,but a MH fan waiting for my New Pocket Army 45Colt. When it comes I will post pictures and a review of the finest western handgun ever made.
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Not troll,but a MH fan waiting for my New Pocket Army 45Colt. When it comes I will post pictures and a review of the finest western handgun ever made.
If nothing else you are persistant .
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Hope springs eternal
to be callously dashed
upon the rocks of reality.
yhs
prof marvel
(i am not a poet, but I impersonate one on the gramaphone)
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As a good cook says, "the proof is in the pudding." The pudding seems to need some help, it's still pretty runny and I know it's left a bitter taste in a lot of folks mouths.
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That has happened with some other repro guns, too, Del. that's why so much cynicisn ::)
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You ask why ?
Here is why
They've been spouting since 2005 .... advertizing and taking non- refundable deposts since 07.
They have not shown so much of a single complete prototype in steel.
Did not meet any their own intro/debut dates in 09 , 10 or 2011... ( said they be at Shot 11 ...NADA )
They are in their third Parent Co. name change.... they've closed the plant and sold off equipment.
7 years and not a working model .... :-\
you tell me .... should we not be cynical ?
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Kinda feels like we're beating a dead horse here. ::) :-X :-\
I've been wanting an MH revolver for years, but until they are on gun shop shelves I wouldn't even waste my time thinking about it.
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The MH factory called me a month ago and asked if I wanted my deposit or if I would stay in line for my Pocket Army Merwin-Hulbert. I told them I would wait and word has it we will see them soon. I am stocking up on cowboy loads and gonna have a Slim Jim made cross draw with border stamps in oxblood. The wait be worth it many times over. Best Fowler
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Buddy, unless you have other .45 cal firearms, I would wait to stock up on ammo. I hope for your sake (and everyone else that has money in this venture) that the guns are produced, but the company has said "you will see them soon" for several years now. I wish you luck.
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The MH factory called me a month ago and asked if I wanted my deposit or if I would stay in line for my Pocket Army Merwin-Hulbert. I told them I would wait and word has it we will see them soon. I am stocking up on cowboy loads and gonna have a Slim Jim made cross draw with border stamps in oxblood. The wait be worth it many times over. Best Fowler
They called you and asked if you wanted your deposit back??!! Lol, sure they did.
I would love to know if anybody else here got a similar call from the "factory" offering to refund their deposit.
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You an't for real fowler. At best you are living in a fantesy land.
The Merwin and Hulbert website says very plainly they will not refund deposits made to the previous company.
Why are you an exception?
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The rest of those wide-eyed waddies must've been out at the Unicorn Round-up when the non-existent, unmanned 'factory' called 'em, and you know those critters are damned hard to drop a loop on...
A Slim Jim holster for the 3 1/2" barrelled Pocket Army will look pretty close to a purse with a belt loop.
Scouts Out!
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Now you know, thar Slim Jim holster might just be the right thing for my Slim Jim Pistoley :)
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A Slim Jim holster for the 3 1/2" barrelled Pocket Army will look pretty close to a purse with a belt loop. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm ordering one in hot pink Cordura with a closure button of polished Unicorn horn.
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I'll bet the caller from the factory was named "Peggy".
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Wow,
It seems like saying 'Merwin Hulbert' to this crowd is akin to saying 'Niagara Falls' to the Three Stooges ....
'Slowly I turn'
'Step by step
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/the-three-stooges-why-i-ought-ta-sweatshirt.jpg)
TTFN,
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I'll bet the caller from the factory was named "Peggy".
LOL. Good one!! ;D
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Hey WWE,
Wasn't that Niagara Falls deal Abbot & Costello? (Probably an old vaudeville bit)
Reverend Chase
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Wow,
It seems like saying 'Merwin Hulbert' to this crowd is akin to saying 'Niagara Falls' to the Three Stooges ....
TTFN,
Those of us with an penchant for hard truth are like a pit bull with a bone, whether it be in advertising, or delivery on promises (ie: "fulfilling a legally binding contract"** )
It is, in fact , a service to the community to periodically remind the public of those who renig on their contracts; those who promise the moon but deliver naught; for the Market and the Scheisters and the Con Artists all depend upon the gullible and uninformed, upon which they feed like the leeches they are.
It is especially important to have watchdogs keeping a wary eye on those who proudly proclaim
"You can Trust Me! For I am an Honest Man and hold my Character and Honor above all else!"
Once an individual opens that door, then as God is my Witness, I and others like me will hold them to it and hound their heels like the Dogs of Hell to ensure that they Keep Their Word or By God They Will BE REMEMBERED AND PUBLICLY CALLED OUT as Liars and Scoundrels!
If on the other hand, they fulfill their promises and their commitments I will be one of those who sing their praise.
It behooves the public and the community to REMEMBER Scoundrels and cheats - those who do not keep their promises
and not allow them to "re-invent" themselves (as is the current fad) or quietly fade away - for their works should surely follow them wherever they try to go, lest they perpetrate the same scam once again.
"By Their Deeds, You Shall Know Them" - not by their words.
yhs
prof "pit bull" marvel
** so, can you tell me "when is a legally binding contract" not legally binding?
... scroll down for the answer
.
.
.
when the contract is signed by a corporation; for a corporation can at any time dissolve itself
and thus no longer be legally held to the contracts it signed.
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I was going to suggest that this thread be locked but Mr. Fowler has been providing such good entertainment that I think it should be allowed to continue.
I hope we are all wrong but I doubt it.
A couple of years or so ago a man who said he represented the company which was producing the MH called me. He wanted to have NCOWS look at the prototype. I told him it would be a good idea. I never heard from him again ;)
Will Ketchum
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I was going to suggest that this thread be locked but Mr. Fowler has been providing such good entertainment that I think it should be allowed to continue.
Will Ketchum
Where else would I have learned about the endangered CHUPACABRA ???
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Where else would I have learned about the endangered CHUPACABRA ???
Xfiles did a great episode on it back in the 90's: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751109/plotsummary
We still get news reports about three times a year when somebody sees one of these buggers . . . Usually down near the border near Ol' Mexico.
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We still get news reports about three times a year when somebody sees one of these buggers . . . Usually down near the border near Ol' Mexico.
usually the poor things turn out to be sick & dying 'yotes with terminally severe cases of mange :-(
yhs prof marvel
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usually the poor things turn out to be sick & dying 'yotes with terminally severe cases of mange :-(
yhs prof marvel
Or rabid vampiric extraterrestrial goblins!!!
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Or rabid vampiric extraterrestrial goblins!!!
Not to worry (taken in abridged context from Hornady own website)
NEWSFLASH
Hornady Has Released New Z-Max, Zombie Bullets (Nope, I’m not Joking)
In what I can only describe as the most brilliant marketing scheme of all time, Hornady – makers of some of the finest ammunition in the world – have released their new “Zombie Max” zombie killing bullets.
I would assume.....
Equal to the task for use on rabid vampiric extraterrestrial goblins.
next time I see either, I'd be proud to have my M&H loaded the Zombie Max.....
Bad news, ::) is the likelyhood , I'll incur both entities long before the M&H is produced.
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Thankyou Will Kicthum being a Christian man and taking a man for his word I am not trolling and do not mean to degrade anybody. Thankyou for your fairness,pistol packin Preacher,Fowler.
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Fowler:
You an't for real fowler. At best you are living in a fantesy land.
The Merwin and Hulbert website says very plainly they will not refund deposits made to the previous company.
Why are you an exception?
If you are real, and not another shill for M&H ( which has happened several times on CAS City)
Thankyou Will Kicthum being a Christian man and taking a man for his word I am not trolling and do not mean to degarde anybody. Thankyou for your fairness,pistol packin Preacher,Fowler.
Please do not take personal offense to my posts, they were never meant as a personal attack on you personally nor has it ever been my intent to be "unfair" to you, but instead to attempt to open your eyes to the sad, hard facts which are available for everyone to see, and to make public the issues surrounding the Merwin& Huilbert Co. fiasco.
to itemize the following indisputable FACTS:
- M&H was part of a parent corp that included A-Square, Sharps Rifle, Merwin & Hulbert, and a holster company.
- M&H only existed as a child under A-Square, and leveraged their FFL licenses.
The Only company that ever regularly produced products was the A-Square rifle and ammunition company.
- M&H consistantly failed to offer even a prototype of a pistol that they have been promising for nearly 5 years
- The Town of Glenrock, WY gave them numerous dollar incentives, but M&H & A-Square has failed to deliver on every promise they made to Glenrock.
- M&H & A-Square promised to hire and keep employed a certain number of skilled workers, and they failed
- M&H & A-Square is behind on several months of tax-free reduced rent to the Town of Glenrock
- M&H promised delivery of finished guns to "subscribers" at least 3 times (or more) and they failed every time
- M&H promised to show the prototype several times and failed
- M&H promised to provide prototypes to various writers to review, and failed
- M&H promised to bring the prototype to the Shotshow for several years and failed every time, the last shot show they
did not even show up.
- M&H promised to "keep everyone and the public informed via their website" - they sort of managed for a bit, then failed.
- On Thursday, March 1, 2012 10:44 am "A-Square defaults on lease–CEO closes doors"
This took down child company Merwin & Hulbert as well as the parent corp - from the newspaper article seen here
http://www.douglas-budget.com/glenrock/article_423700e2-63c6-11e1-b007-0019bb2963f4.html
it clearly states:
------------------------------------
"Posted: Thursday, March 1, 2012 10:44 am | Updated: 11:27 am, Thu Mar 15, 2012. Jesse Bishop
Despite hopes that Sharps Rifle Company, LLC, and A-Square of Wyoming would be able to find investors to restart Glenrock operations this year, A-Square of Wyoming is no more." ...
"After events surrounding A-Square’s former owner and founder Art Alphin led Sharps CEO Michael Blank to shut down both A-Square of South Dakota and Sharps’ main operations in St. Louis, Blank conveyed ownership of all contents in the Glenrock operation to the new CEO Kevin Tierney, and his partner William Martin. After the deal was struck, it was determined that the company as a whole was not fit to even exist."
(emphasis is mine)
"“There is financial tragedy across the board,” Tierney said. “The State of South Dakota has lost a lot of money, the major financial institution in South Dakota has lost an awful lot of money. The State of Wyoming and the Town of Glenrock believed in a lot of people and invested a lot of money to build this facility. There have been numerous consumers who invested money for guns which were not delivered.”
Tierney asked Town Council for understanding, explaining his decision to completely shut down the company due to the fact that its financial condition was “toxic, if not radioactive.” He proposed a break on lease payments for a replacement company called Sharps Rifle Company, Inc., which he created using the equipment and intellectual property he acquired from Blank."
----------------------------------------------------------
- In the Corporate Documents that I posted earlier it clearly states that the new company will not do ANYTHING until and unless they manage to get AT LEAST $1.3 million in new funding, which will mainly go to paying back rent, not build new guns.
To really "get going" they expect to need to raise another $5 million.
- M&H (now called Sharps Rifle LLC) does not have any skilled workers, they let them all go. They only have "corporate officers".
- A-Square (whilst never a huge business) used to at least make and deliver products and show a profit. Now they have been dragged down in this mess and out of business as well and the owners of the special caliber rifles are S.O.L. as we say.
- The States of Wyoming and South Dakota have lost millions of dollars in grants and incentives.
Now, with these facts in hand, and the clear evidence of so many broken promises, We can see that their words and promises have proven to be hollow.
I have to ask With all the money gone down the tube, how can anyone trust these people?
With this track record I have to ask "Why Should anyone trust anything they say now?"
Fowler, you said you are a Christian man, you should remember that "By Their Deeds, You Shall Know Them".
Whilst I do not presume to speak on behalf of the others on the forum, It has never been my intent to degrade you or others who are hopeful that they may someday get something from M&H; but only to point out the hard facts.
Sharps Rifle LLC ( formerly Merwin & Hulbert, A-Square, Sharps Rifle, and that holster company) might somehow pull out of this, but it is not looking good.
Please do not shoot the messenger if the messenger is pointing out the rainclouds overhead, and that you have no umbrella;
And please do not proudly wave the latest advertisement that says your Weatherman promised Sunny Skies whilst the storm pours down around our ears.
in all sadness
your humble servant
prof marvel
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I rolled my dice a year ago and talked to them 2 weeks before the new website went up on line. Now hence we have the no refund rule and production near what was I was told. I will post no more on the subject till I have a 45 Colt M-H Pocket Army in my hand.
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I rolled my dice a year ago and talked to them 2 weeks before the new website went up on line. Now hence we have the no refund rule and production near what was I was told. I will post no more on the subject till I have a 45 Colt M-H Pocket Army in my hand.
Fowler:
Good luck and God be with you.
in all sincerity
prof marvel
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Well if fowler keeps his word I figure that's the last we'll ever hear from him. ::)
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Well if fowler keeps his word I figure that's the last we'll ever hear from him. ::)
I see what you did there!! ;) ;D
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I see what you did there!! ;) ;D
Pretty clever ain't it? ;D
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Pretty clever ain't it? ;D
;D
Wasn't there a holster maker here 5 or 6 years ago working about the same as the Merwin Hulbert group? Send the deposit, don't answer the emails close the website and run. The time it has been since this started, the deposit, in a simple savings account would nearly buy you one at auction.
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any one tending the fire here?
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If there were - there'd be more postings throughout the C&WAS world.
There aren't.
It's a dead issue.
Scouts Out!
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Even the new parent company Sharps Rifle website, which had promised regular updates and aforum, has provided neither in the last three months .
yhs
prof marvel
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The MH factory called me a month ago and asked if I wanted my deposit or if I would stay in line for my Pocket Army Merwin-Hulbert. I told them I would wait and word has it we will see them soon. I am stocking up on cowboy loads and gonna have a Slim Jim made cross draw with border stamps in oxblood. The wait be worth it many times over. Best Fowler
Well Fowler, since you seem to have an inside track, have you heard anything more in the last 5 months?
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Well Fowler, since you seem to have an inside track, have you heard anything more in the last 5 months?
fowler hasn't been active since May 9, 2012! :(
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And the supposed 'manufacturer' hasn't been active at all...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Found evidence of one:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b231/gsonnenmd/NCOWS/chup3.jpg)
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Pancho; What would your preference be for a holster design in Chupacabra hide. Mexican loop or slimjim? Lined or unlined and what would your choice of lining be ???
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glad I could stir some emotion into this one. ;D
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No point in doing that.
I'll be deleting this thread soon.
Scouts Out!
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St George,
Not sure why you would want to delete this very informative and entertaining thread.
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By all means keep the thread alive. There's always a chance that another batch of incompetent entrepreneurs will come along and announce the resurrection of this enterprise.
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Just move it to Tall Tales. As for Fowler he promised he wouldn't post about it again untill he had his in his hand.
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By all means keep the thread alive. There's always a chance that another batch of incompetent entrepreneurs will come along and announce the resurrection of this enterprise.
I think that most of us that posted here really wanted this project to succeed. I still do. Too bad we were dissapointed, badly!
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No point in doing that.
I'll be deleting this thread soon.
Scouts Out!
By all means delete it, it is one of the most active threads here. ::) WM
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By all means delete it, it is one of the most active threads here. ::) WM
That is because we all love a good tragic comedy.
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That is because we all love a good tragic comedy.
Like an Italian Opera
and at the end, everybody dies.
yhs
prof marvel
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Like an Italian Opera
and at the end, everybody dies.
yhs
prof marvel
A process that is started the day we are born. :P WM
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Like an Italian Opera
and at the end, everybody dies.
yhs
prof marvel
I love the classic's
as Tensleeps use to say now Im off to town to see the Elephant
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I know they haven't shown any completed guns, but after all these years of work and thousands of dollars they took in, the Merwin resurrectionists must at least have a pretty big stock of new-made parts to sell off, right?
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I know they haven't shown any completed guns, but after all these years of work and thousands of dollars they took in, the Merwin resurrectionists must at least have a pretty big stock of new-made parts to sell off, right?
I think they were planning to sell off all the parts they had made, but someone misplaced the cigar box that they were all stored in ;D
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Well the Website is still running ( at lease it was easily googled) so I suppose someone (a student of PT Barnum's philosophy maybe) has paid the bill in the last year :-\ Their Blog is dead though !
Truth is , none of us know how this particular Shell game is played or will play out.....
Personally, I think any parts were photographed then reassemble back into the Orginal guns they were from, either Merwin's or the Spanish Copies then sold perhaps.....
I'd hope I'm wrong, but I fear I'm not, the Flim- Flam operation has duped the City of Glenrock, Wyoming not to mention the people that sent in the non refundable deposits.
NEWSFLASH
Dated 12/28/07
Today we have an update.
Hello to all our M&H Faithful.
1)The first Serial number sold will be SN 101. First come first served.
2)All deposits will go to our accounts which are held with Bank of America and or our backup accounts at Wells Fargo. Both of these banks are as stable as any in the country at the moment.
3)Use of deposits: The deposits will go towards expenses relating to production,sales, and core costs, and NOT salaries, vacations, corporate jets, million dollar pool parties with playboy bunnies, etc.
4)When? Good question. I believe in being open and honest with our customers so do I have an X date? No, but 12 months is the farthest out we are looking at currently for standardized production. I am looking at a date much sooner then that, but I don't want to over-promise and under-deliver.
This "honest with our customers" non-over-promise and under-deliver statement is fast approching 5 years !
PT Barnum indeed was right.
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wow 2007...the market will be flooded with them soon
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After all those years - you could've taken a piece of railroad iron and a set of Swiss Needle files and made your own...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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After all those years - you could've taken a piece of railroad iron and a set of Swiss Needle files and made your own...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
AMEN!
Books
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Yep
Here is Homemade BRASS copy of a Colt.... I concider it ART !
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Maybe they are now making magazines for Bren 10's and Tucker Torpedoes. ;) At least De Lorean left enough parts behind you can have a new one built if you really want one.
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Maybe they are now making magazines for Bren 10's and Tucker Torpedoes. ;) At least De Lorean left enough parts behind you can have a new one built if you really want one.
De Lorean?? Does that come in semi or full auto? WM
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Maybe they are now making magazines for Bren 10's and Tucker Torpedoes. ;) At least De Lorean left enough parts behind you can have a new one built if you really want one.
Not sure about OEM parts...but a Flux capacitor is backordered
http://www.tfaw.com/Profile/Back-To-The-Future-Flux-Capacitor-Replica-Unlimited-Edition___337120
However you can get your Mr. Fusion here http://www.feagz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bttf/fusion.htm
Now there is an IDEA !
Backorder your Flux Capacitor and when it arrives , fit with the Mr. Fusion, on your De Lorean .... Go forth ...Oh! maybe 5 years
and see if the M&H has flooded the market by then ..... ;)
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Now there is an IDEA !
Backorder your Flux Capacitor and when it arrives , fit with the Mr. Fusion, on your De Lorean .... Go forth ...Oh! maybe 5 years
and see if the M&H has flooded the market by then ..... ;)
Here's a better idea. Go BACK and pick up some originals. The best part is the you might not even have to go all the way to the 1870's/80's. Just go to the 1950's and 60's and you could find them cheap before anyone realized what they were.
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Here's a better idea. Go BACK and pick up some originals. The best part is the you might not even have to go all the way to the 1870's/80's. Just go to the 1950's and 60's and you could find them cheap before anyone realized what they were.
Won't work ;) the repo Flux Capacitor only is rated for time travel into the future ;)
seems once you buy one ...you can only go forward in time or so the testmonials state.... :P
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Yes and I will bet that it works on a ratio of 01/01! I am starting to worry a tiny bit about the MH status but I think they are just having a bit of a delay due to the wood grips.
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They shoulda started with saplings instead of seeds then they wouldn't have ta wait so long for some mature wood. WM
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Won't work ;) the repo Flux Capacitor only is rated for time travel into the future ;)
seems once you buy one ...you can only go forward in time or so the testmonials state.... :P
then get the future lottery numbers and have enough money to buy the remaining M&H's available
winning!
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Do not give up hope guys, while at the indoor range yesterday I met a guy who was shooting what appeared to be a MH that looked brand new so had to approach him for a closer look. Sure enough it was a brand new gun and the guy was super nice and answered all of my questions, though I am sure they were not necessarily the right ones. He offered to let me shoot it all I wanted and acted really interested in my opinions. The gun was a dream and the action was smoother than any pistol I had ever used, truely a winner in every department. I asked what the price would be and was only told that it would be really high and if I had to ask, well, you know. The guy was a nice looking young man and I first thought he might be a well known gun writer as he looked so familiar but, as it turned out, I do not know of any writers named Elvis. It hit me that he may have been a radio talk show host, his voice was exceptionally smooth! It was to late to ask by then because Elvis had left the building!
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And they say's there is no Alien abuduction.... :-\
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And how many will read only the first two sentences - totally buy the premise - and 'believe'?
Scouts Out!
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After all those years - you could've taken a piece of railroad iron and a set of Swiss Needle files and made your own...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
Maybe they should have just sent ONE origional over to Afghanistan back then, by now troops would be bringing scores of them home.
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If they had made just one pair and given them to me for storage in my gun safe, they would have reproduced inexplicably while hidden there. I have spent years explaining to the wife why a leather worker needs one of each gun he makes holsters for but I am grass if she ever looks into my safe and sees all of the duplicates that have shown up and I am not fully sure that I understand some of them myself? ???
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I'm curious why we haven't seen legal action against this company by all the poor dupes who believed their lie.
RCJ
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That will take time ..at least for Class Action, a Law Firm must first find "if" there is anything to go after.
They have to nail down the will-o-wisp, head of the snake probably across several State lines....
Once the firm determines "if" there is profit in the action.
The action by any City or County, may be heard well before hand.
beyond that, There well be many civil actions filed or in the works.
unless they have filed bankruptcy ( which I believe they have ) all bets are off .
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They wanted to kill the messenger !
When their forum was open, I posted over there under my real name, my name is Charlie.
I am a Mechanical Engineer and building Guns is my hobby.
I told them from the very begining that they can't build that gun for $1250.00.
After Al Jones left, I publically ask Mike Blank, why are you still taking deposits on a gun that you will not be able to build for the money you are asking ? You will be just going deeper into a hole !
He then responded by saying that deposits were no longer being accepted as of several weeks earlier !
All this time, some of those poor dummys were mocking and slandering me for saying such things.
Even yet, I'm not laughing, I wish they could have done it.
I might build that gun some day, if I do, I will show it off here.
Charlie
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...I might build that gun some day, if I do, I will show it off here.
Charlie
Charlie, I think if anyone could make one, you could. I would love to see it!
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>I might build that gun some day, if I do, I will show it off here.
>Charlie
My Good Charlie -
By all means, please go for it! It would be a magnificent project and you certainly have the skills.
yhs
prof (I think I can make mud... ) marvel
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Man, you Guys sure make me feel appreciated.
Heres the deal, that Merwin is a hard one to build, especially if you want interchangeable barrels, so I am a little bit challenged.
I typically don't build what other people do, and that includes replicas, which that Merwin would be.
I like to build original designs that seem like they were built in the mid to late 1800's.
Those "Volcanics were the closest things I have ever built to replicate someone elses gun. Yet that "Volcanic" did require some original engineering to have a gun that I could shoot. I am presently build another "Volcanic" Carbine in Titianium. When I finish that one, I intend to build a Civil War "Tarpley" That will shoot the 56-50 Spencer Cartridge. Then, I am thinking about that side hammer Sharps Pistol to shoot the same cartridge. Then the worlds smallest and trimmest 38 Special Lever Action.
I think it would be educational for some of these Guys to watch me build a Merwin here on CasCity. Very few people have the slightest clue for how much time and effort it takes to build a Gun from scratch.
First I would need one to measure and copy. Then I would make some drawings, select a bar of steel and start cutting. After about 4, maybe 5 months, I would have a brand new Merwin and Hulbert Revolver.
I am not especially fond of that gun, but I will think about it.
I can see where it would make a nice contrubution to my fellow man (some of them) just to see it happen.
Here's another of what I like to do.
It is a Single Shot, Falling Block, shooting that little "40 Volcanic" cartridge.
Charlie
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Howdy,
I recently obtained a beater M H frontier in 44-40 that I plan to rebuild into a shooter. Is there a forum somewhere for Merwin Hulbert shooters or collectors?
Regards
Colr
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You're pretty much on it - so keep looking through the 'back pages'.
Scouts Out!
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Greetings My Good Netizens -
As promised previously I am like a pitbull with a dogbone.
Here we are coming up to Oct 1.
By my reckoning , M&H under the umbrella of "Sharps Rifle" has until Nov 1 to come up with 12 months of rent to pay the city of Glenrock, WY or default on the last contract, thus forfeiting all equipment in the building (unless said equipment has mysteriously vanished in the night). If they have not acquired the afforementioned new funding to pay the rent they will be, well, boned .
I have found no news at all out there, not even from the local newspaper (which had been a regular source of information and entertainment: http://www.douglas-budget.com )
thus we wait with baited breath for the 31 day countdown...
As previously mentioned, it is abismal ( possibly criminal) that they took down A-square (a previously solvent and operational company) along with them.....
yhs
prof (american staffordshire terrier) marvel
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It's disgusting how 'snake oil salesmen' prey on hard working collectors and shooters. They know that lawsuits will soon come, but they don't care because few of them really look at the future. What is worse, they make it so much harder for the ones who really want make a product. I feel sorry for all the folks that got burned by these jerks, but, they were warned many times over.
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It's disgusting how 'snake oil salesmen' prey on hard working collectors and shooters. They know that lawsuits will soon come, but they don't care because few of them really look at the future. What is worse, they make it so much harder for the ones who really want make a product. I feel sorry for all the folks that got burned by these jerks, but, they were warned many times over.
Lawsuits? Hard to get blood from a rock. Those that have paid the "deposit" will be out in the cold on this one.
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Colt Fanning, I'm about to start the process myself on an old open top, perhaps we should share notes as we go along. If you're interested, send me a PM. There's a guy on THR that might be of some help, he posted some videos on Youtube, I contacted him and am supposed to get updated pic's when he has them.
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Greetings Netizens -
Thought I'ld forget?
Well, it is Nov 8 and the silence is deafening. M&H is "supposed to" have either paid the backrent or give up the building.
It shouldn't be too difficult, since a diligent search of public records indicates that 6 months rent is only ~ $30k ; not to mention that the contract I found has enough loopholes through whick one could drive 6 horse wagon and team.
Little is found in the Wyoming Newspapers except smoke qand mirrors - the Glenrock Bird reports that the M&H puppets principals presented "a slide show".
http://www.theglenrockbird.com/articleoverflow.html
and the M&H website has been silent with absolutely no updates since the new site was posted after the takeover.
I do have to admit that I took a poke at the corpse with a stick, perhaps it might twitch an eyelid...
First M&H now usfa. it is sad.
Don't worry about me, I will go off and oil my piettas, all by myself, in the dark. :P
yhs
prof marvel
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Maybe they should apply to "you-know-who" for a gub'mint bailout! Oops! Shouldn't have said that... I think I hear something outside going "fluk-a-ta! fluk-a-ta! fluk-a-ta!" It's dark out, so I can't see what color those helicopters are! :o
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Maybe they should apply to "you-know-who" for a gub'mint bailout! Oops! Shouldn't have said that... I think I hear something outside going "fluk-a-ta! fluk-a-ta! fluk-a-ta!" It's dark out, so I can't see what color those helicopters are! :o
In fact ,they did take more "stimulus money " from the state. from the link:
"Slide one of the presentation illustrated the status of the $6 Million of the $7 Million needed in capital and financing in order for the company to launch. The latest $2 Million of the $6 mil was promised in the last week from Enhanced Capital Wyoming, LLC., a recently formed State of Wyoming “State Focused Fund” that was created by the Wyoming legislature with the primary focus of creating jobs within the State of Wyoming. According to Lesser, Enhanced Capital gave notification to the company that they have agreed to finance the $2million. "It should be pointed out, that the $2million from Enhanced Capital is not a grant, it is financing that will be repaid with interest benefitting the State of Wyoming." stated Lesser."
somehow throwing good after bad.
and no mention at all of the M&H revolvers.
yhs
prof marvel
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Anybody wanna buy a bridge over the North Platte River?
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don't need one - its only about ankle-deep here on my end.
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don't need one - its only about ankle-deep here on my end.
How appropriate, Stu. Considering this M&H saga we need something better to go wading through.
RCJ
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Bail out? I don't think there was ever anything to bail out. Money down a rat hole seems more proper.
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Bail out? I don't think there was ever anything to bail out. Money down a rat hole seems more proper.
Rat hole .... hmmmmm
Why, Del, perhaps we could organize a rat hunt!
Oh, and could I possibly get more noodles, please?
your hungry servant
prof (rat terrier) marvel
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So does this mean the first of the new model M&H's will roll out around Christmas?
Dear Santee, I've been really good this year.....................
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Does anyone ever go to jail for this type of $#!+ in America? Funny how some low life looser goes to jail over a few bucks but the guys in suits bilk millions/billions and it simply considered poor business practices! What this country needs is a return to frontier justice, as metered out by the likes of Roy Bean or Judge Parker. Amazing how much religion fokes get when the rope can be seen in the background!
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Nope... >:( the guilty have more rights than the innocent nowadays
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I think the only way either criminal charges could be brought or a civil suit wo is if the company had indicated they would refund earnest money if the gun was never delivered. If all the people who lost money filed a class action suit and pooled their attorney fee money, they could certainly find an attorney willing to pursue this. I doubt people would be that organized to do so and so they are all out in the cold on this one. I just hope this thread remains open as a warning for future "investors".
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I think the only way either criminal charges could be brought or a civil suit wo is if the company had indicated they would refund earnest money if the gun was never delivered. If all the people who lost money filed a class action suit and pooled their attorney fee money, they could certainly find an attorney willing to pursue this. I doubt people would be that organized to do so and so they are all out in the cold on this one. I just hope this thread remains open as a warning for future "investors".
No attorney would touch this for civil or class action status unless some substantial assets were available to recover.
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NAAA, wasnt thinking lawyers, more along the lines of a tall barl and a short rope! People still know the difference between right and wrong, but we have become enamoured with the shuck and jive while ignoring the personal responsibility for such actions.
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..... I just hope this thread remains open as a warning for future "investors".
Well we repeatedly warned any and all
over and over and over
many chose delusion and smoke over sense and paid the cost with their dollars
As promised, with all sadness, I am here to say:
"Told ya so. Saw it right off"
yhs
prof marvel
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"Told ya so. Saw it right off"
yhs
prof marvel
Paid for a Tucker Torpedo and all we got was luggage. ;)
Put 5 Marks a week into a fund and then after a while you can have a Volksvagon.
Cool looking gun, when are you going to get a magazine?
And here is your title to the George Washington bridge, now get up there and start charging tolls.
;D
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Guys, you 'do' know that for every post made about malfeasance and skullduggery - there are a handful of folks 'out there' who are thinking to themselves - 'But what if they're wrong?'...
Folks like those are looked at as lawful prey by the schemers, and if the advertising campaign's enticing enough - like it is with midnight radio preachers - these 'true believers' are reaching for their deposit money.
Sad - damned sad...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Look on the bright side; I got to learn about the elusive CHUPACABRA!
I even got to see a picture of one ;D ;D
Even if it was just a cartoon ;) ;)
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If any of you guys are interested, here's a real one I just refurbished and put up for auction.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=317086604
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No attorney would touch this for civil or class action status unless some substantial assets were available to recover.
I agree with you Pancho. It is very unfortunate, but a great lesson for all of us.
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Guys, you 'do' know that for every post made about malfeasance and skullduggery - there are a handful of folks 'out there' who are thinking to themselves - 'But what if they're wrong?'...
Folks like those are looked at as lawful prey by the schemers, and if the advertising campaign's enticing enough - like it is with midnight radio preachers - these 'true believers' are reaching for their deposit money.
Sad - damned sad...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
Most times they are just the ones warning labels have saved from Darwin's Theory.
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I really can not jump on this bandwagon with to much authority as I have 'been there and done thet' myownselfen afore! I sent in a bunch of cah to CC on speculation thet he would later send me a new production shotgun. Onlyest time I ever did that and it worked out BUT a bunch of pards down under got singed on a similar feal, or so I heard?
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Their web site is down now.
Nobodys paying the up keep.
I think this is the way it works..
Those who know ?
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Read all of the preceding posts, and you'll get the idea that this was nothing more than a scheme designed to not only fleece a prospective buyer - but give false hope to a town.
Sad...
C&WAS is a dying game - the introduction of new-production firearms to an extremely limited market is bad business, today.
Especially true when the prospective buyer/user is tied to the low-cost Ruger or Italian clone pricing of a Cabela's or other large retailer - the idea of spending 'Colt money' to shoot something odd and non-ergonomic to begin with isn't an option.
Scouts Out!
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"Bad Day at Glenrock".
How Ironical.
within a week of each other both M&H and USAF websites have "gone under" ....
one gone completely into the aether and the other de-evolved into a sales platform for a pathetic plastic toy marketed to ...
"operators? ... zombie-killer wannabe's?
Ahhh the vagauries and whims of the demented idle rich.
I see no relevant news coming out of Glenrock on the interwebs.
pathetic, sad, blah blah blah. What a strange and constantly changing time we are in.
At least we can still play with Pietta's and Uberti's that are still being manufactured! - those well-established family run companies have a real sense of "the long term", even if Pietta is making some odd thingies they are still pretty old-timey-ish C&B revolvers.
Ironically, for the original advertised price of $1250, one can still get a very nice benchtop mill..... hmmmm....
yhs
prof marvel.
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All along you would have been money ahead to seek out any of the remaining originals and fix them to shoot.
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;)
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Professor Marvel,
The USFA web site is still around but not much to look at. You will now find it at www.usfasingleaction.com.
The "pre-grand opening" ZiP web site had a link to the old SAA site. Now that the ZiP site is full launched they have removed the link.
The only thing USFA is producing right now is the ZiP. SAA production has come to a complete stop.
CJF
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Sad to see usfa go, they made some quality saa revolvers at one point. Unfortunately I think it was just too tough of a market to compete in. At the premium end one could just buy a Colt. On the budget side there are plenty of quality Italian clones and Rugers to choose from. USFA was simply stuck somewhere in between which apparently did not proove to be fruitful.
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Merwin Hulbert was part of a purchase by Broadsword Group. They have elected NOT to manufacture any revolvers, and are sending letters to those who sent payment to refund that money. I understand they would like to sell MH to a company who would actually make them, but no luck so far.
http://www.broadswordgroup.com/mh_announcement.html
I just bought a MH 7 shot .32 pocket pistol, and I might just look for a large caliber MH that I can afford.
FWIW, this seems to be the end of that whole project.
mark
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It's been the end of that whole project from the day of inception.
Scouts Out!
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I'm going to miss this thread if it really is the end. It has been the source of much amusment.
Books
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My first thought is I'm not surprised they are having a hard time finding a buyer. What the hell were they going to sell to them?
RCJ
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I have an idea! Lets hijack this thread into a hunt for a live Chupacabra. ;D
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I have an idea! Lets hijack this thread into a hunt for a live Chupacabra. ;D
That's the word/animal that I was looking for yesterday: Chupacabra.
That should be model name of the first reproduction Merwin Hulbert. The Berretta copy of the S & W New Model Three is called the Laramie; The MH should be the "Chupacabra." ;D
Books
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"The MH should be the 'Chupacabra'. " I was going to suggest Bigfoot as there has been a lot more sightings of Bigfoots than new made MHs.
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Near as I can tell, all they're selling is the trade name of firms long out of business.
Wonder how that works, exactly - when there never was any sort of product line beyond BS.
Scouts Out!
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I have an idea! Lets hijack this thread into a hunt for a live Chupacabra. ;D
I thought that's what it already was...
I just found that info and had to post it here...It is almost a shame, though. I feel like a spoil sport...
but not too much ;D
mark
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I thought that's what it already was...
I just found that info and had to post it here...It is almost a shame, though. I feel like a spoil sport...
but not too much ;D
mark
Don't feel too bad. this has been a topic for gratuitous fun for quite awhile :D
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But the 'True Believers' are always gonna bite this particular hook - no matter what is said.
Scouts Out!
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Anybody heard from Fowler lately? ;D ;D
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Anybody heard from Fowler lately? ;D ;D
He is Erik Estrada's stunt double in this lovely drama:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCCshwzHeLc[/youtube]
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I was right! This is much more fun than talking about the endangered M-H ;D
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Eric Estrada is doubling the Chupacabra? wow he is such an amazing actor.
I too am heart broke this project sunk ;)
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Merwin Hulbert was part of a purchase by Broadsword Group. They have elected NOT to manufacture any revolvers, and are sending letters to those who sent payment to refund that money. I understand they would like to sell MH to a company who would actually make them, but no luck so far.
http://www.broadswordgroup.com/mh_announcement.html
I just bought a MH 7 shot .32 pocket pistol, and I might just look for a large caliber MH that I can afford.
FWIW, this seems to be the end of that whole project.
mark
Yes, it is the end of the project.
I was one of the customers who made full payment in advance for their 1878 model over 1 year ago.
I took a BIG chance but, in the end, the project went belly up.
They sent me a certified letter yesterday stating my refund of the total purchase price is going to be made as part of an agreement reached with the Wyoming Attorney General's Office (I assume as part of the settlement of the entire matter and to be able to takeover the new business and old assets?).
I never expected this refund and think the Wyoming AG must have played an instrumental part in this. When (if) I really do receive a full refund I will email the Wyoming AG thanking him/her for doing this for all of us MH customers.
Oh well, I took a BIG GAMBLE but at least it looks like my money will be refunded.
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keep us posted .... you are quite the gambler :)
I'd be surprised, if you see your money
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http://www.broadswordgroup.com/mh_announcement.html
Good to hear this.
I am optimistic for you.
As far as buying a New Merwin, made here in America for $1250.00,
An't gonna happen. :(
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I find the comment below from the Broadsword Group announcement interesting. Perhaps there is still some hope for a M&H reproduction down the line.
"Although the reintroduction of these Old West revolvers was a dream for many, Broadsword has elected to cease development of the project and pass it on to a company with a long history of success in this sort of reproductions."
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They sold the 'name' - period - they didn't have anything else.
It's like sitting on corporate names like 'Coca-Cola.com/net/org' and hoping someone else will pay the asking fee.
Given that C&WAS is by and large a dying 'sport' - there's zero financial sense in introducing a revolver with limited appeal and almost no 'out-of-cowboy' usage.
Scouts Out!
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If they ever existed, what happened to all of the parts they were supposed to have already made up?
If they would fit originals, I could use some parts.
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There were no parts.
'Supposing' to make them and actually making them are two wholly different things.
Scouts Out!
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Everyone to their own opinion - mine just don't tend to be universally negative.
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I not so much as an opinion, as seeing history repeat....
this not the first time a carrot was dangled, I can name several such ventures ...
the twist here will be "IF" the money is refunded ::)
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If they ever existed, what happened to all of the parts they were supposed to have already made up?
They never even had a working prototype, or even a non working prototype. All I ever saw were digital 3D models.
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They never even had a working prototype, or even a non working prototype. All I ever saw were digital 3D models.
They did have two, maybe three non working, incomplete, attempts at building the "Merwin", and did post pictures of their progress.
I think that is when reality hit them, - "this is gonna be a bear to skin". "We can't get there from here."
I then ask them on open forum, "Why are you still taking deposits for a gun you can't build for $1250 ?"
Mike Blank then answered by saying, "They had quit taking deposits".
Mike and I had talked about working together on another type of gun, but could not get together on it.
I still believe he had good intentions, but just bit off more than he could chew.
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It had been my understanding that what was shown were the cleaned-up and prepped parts from originals to use for their 'in progress' photos.
No matter, now.
Scouts Out!
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Don't mean any offense to any one here......
It's just funny how this dead ol' horse keeps get'n dug up 'n beat from all sorts of angles....... it's amusing... ;) ;) ;)
Carry On....
;D
Yeti76620
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I've mentioned taking this one down several times - but folks like to use it as an object lesson - and for amusement.
Remember - "There Is No Horse So Dead That You Cannot Continue To Beat It'...
Scouts Out!
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I've mentioned taking this one down several times - but folks like to use it as an object lesson - and for amusement.
Remember - "There Is No Horse So Dead That You Cannot Continue To Beat It'...
Scouts Out!
LOL....I guess the horse don't mind anymore.... ;)
Yeti76620
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That's a good one St George ;D
For me, it's about the Gun.
Not people, but the Gun.
There were a lot of guns that have come and gone. You might say these Guns are dead.
The Merwin is one of um. "Gone but not forgotten". Who knows, maybe someday these glorious guns might live again.
In actuality, a lot of them have. Just look at the "Henry", the 1860 Colt, and others.
That makes me happy.
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Remember - "There Is No Horse So Dead That You Cannot Continue To Beat It..."
In the spirit of that comment, maybe we can all learn more about what to do with "dead horses"... ;D
Dakota Indian tribal wisdom says that when you discover you are riding a colloquial dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
However, in modern organizations, we often try other strategies with dead horses, including the following:
* buying a stronger whip
* changing riders
* saying things like "This is the way we always have ridden this horse"
* appointing a committee to the study the horse
* arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses
* increasing the standards to ride dead horses
* appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horses
* creating a training session to increase our riding ability
* comparing the state of dead horses in today's environment
* passing a resolution declaring: "This horse is not dead"
* blaming the horses' ancestry
* harnessing several dead horses for increased speed
* declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat"
* providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance
* do a study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper
* declare the horse is better, faster and cheaper dead
* form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses
* revisit the performance requirements for dead horses
* say that this horse was procured with cost as the independent variable
* promote the dead horse to a supervisory position
OK, that's enough "horse play" for tonight... Enjoy!
Old No7
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Just because an Attorney General makes an agreement with or a court order is signed to refund money doesn't mean it will happen if there are no assets to sell and no money in the bank.
I, too would be shocked if anybody receives a refund.
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Remember - "There Is No Horse So Dead That You Cannot Continue To Beat It'...
Scouts Out!
This one gives me great pleasure to follow. Always been fishy
They need to start one on a Leather guy that took peoples money then dissappeared on them.
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No - and I do know who you mean, and I even own one of his holsters - a floral-carved Cheyenne style a'la the dustjacket of 'Packing Iron' that I bought off the shelf in Hill City, South Dakota.
That one has too many 'good ol' pards' that get defensive and mean-spirited in their replies.
Scouts Out!
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No - and I do know who you mean, and I even own one of his holsters - a floral-carved Cheyenne style a'la the dustjacket of 'Packing Iron' that I bought off the shelf in Hill City, South Dakota.
That one has too many 'good ol' pards' that get defensive and mean-spirited in their replies.
Scouts Out!
If this one goes back a few years and is the one that switched states, I know who you are talking about. He was a piece of work too.
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That's the one.
Scouts Out!
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Guy over on the SASS wire reports that he received a refund check.
http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207556
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Given that C&WAS is by and large a dying 'sport' - there's zero financial sense in introducing a revolver with limited appeal and almost no 'out-of-cowboy' usage.
Well, I politely disagree because guys like to buy new and unusual guns regardless of how they intend to employ said piece. I think a niche maker, building extremely high quality pieces, could sell a limited number annually and never worry. Going over the top would likely get you over extended and killed. If a known product purveyor, someone who has other revenue streams, made them, they could do fine. Or if someone partnered with a couple folks--one CnC guy forging and cutting parts, someone else finishing, I am sure they could do it. Look at a guy like Doug Turnbull, if someone could turn out the parts, I bet he would sell everything he made. Again, it can't be the sole source of income. It is a specialty item, but gun "nuts" like us, want specialty items and will pay for them.
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Well, I politely disagree because guys like to buy new and unusual guns regardless of how they intend to employ said piece. I think a niche maker, building extremely high quality pieces, could sell a limited number annually and never worry. Going over the top would likely get you over extended and killed. If a known product purveyor, someone who has other revenue streams, made them, they could do fine. Or if someone partnered with a couple folks--one CnC guy forging and cutting parts, someone else finishing, I am sure they could do it. Look at a guy like Doug Turnbull, if someone could turn out the parts, I bet he would sell everything he made. Again, it can't be the sole source of income. It is a specialty item, but gun "nuts" like us, want specialty items and will pay for them.
Gee, you mean like USFA and to a certain extent Colt? Neither could/can make it making single actions. No one could build a profitable business selling M&H's. You are correct there are guys that like new and unusual guns. The problem is once they have bought theirs, the market is pretty well dried up.
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Gee, you mean like USFA and to a certain extent Colt?
No, and neither fits the description I gave you for a couple reasons. First, USFA was all over the place and obviously over extended in their market--precisely what I noted they could not do. Colt has also been a hot mess at times for various reasons. Colt, and no large manufacturer, can ever seem to ramp up a custom shop that is consistent. You need a shop that can pick it up and drop it without marginalizing the rest of their line. So someone who finishes can take the parts at their leisure and sell assembled guns. A CnC shop that does not rely on that alone (the "New" Merwin's problem) can machine or not as need exists. You make a few dozen a year, you'd sell them all and for decades with no problem. Colt cannot operate with that economy of scale model. People always want to make a ton at once and bring the cost down/profit margin up--therein lies the stupidity. Like S&W building the Schofield--never going to compete with an Italian maker on costs. No one builds Merwins so the market is wide open for a niche builder. Look at Sharps rifles, there are a few small Sharps shops that turn a profit and numerous rifle makers who will build a Sharps out of parts they can purchase. You telling me there exists a Market that is greater for 3500 dollar Sharps rifles than for 1500 dollar hand fitted M&Hs? I sincerely doubt it.
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Update: I received my refund check yesterday.
Never thought I would receive a refund.........got lucky.
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That's the one.
Scouts Out!
ditto
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Update: I received my refund check yesterday.
Never thought I would receive a refund.........got lucky.
ah never mind
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I don't think many generalizations can be made about USFA. They weren't run like any other company. It certainly didn't "fail" for lack of sales. They were backlogged for 12 months and sold everything they ever made. Donnelly just decided not to play any more, took his ball and went home.
Given that C&WAS is by and large a dying 'sport' - there's zero financial sense in introducing a revolver with limited appeal and almost no 'out-of-cowboy' usage.
I disagree as well. There are A LOT of people buying single action revolvers that are not shooting CAS. I'm 38yrs old, own over two dozen SA's and have never shot in a CAS match in my life. I can spend all day conversing online with single action enthusiasts on half a dozen different forums and only one is related to CAS. No sir, the SA is alive and well.
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I disagree as well. There are A LOT of people buying single action revolvers that are not shooting CAS. I'm 38yrs old, own over two dozen SA's and have never shot in a CAS match in my life. I can spend all day conversing online with single action enthusiasts on half a dozen different forums and only one is related to CAS. No sir, the SA is alive and well.
I have never shot a match either but I now own three as well as an 1873 Winchester repro.
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...You telling me there exists a Market that is greater for 3500 dollar Sharps rifles than for 1500 dollar hand fitted M&Hs? I sincerely doubt it.
You'd be wrong. BPCR is a popular sport that has a Nat'l Championship in Raton, NM every year. Shiloh Sharps sell all they can make and are backordered over a year. A M&H repro would be lucky if 500 were sold. There just isn't enough interest to make it economically feasible.
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You'd be wrong. BPCR is a popular sport that has a Nat'l Championship in Raton, NM every year. Shiloh Sharps sell all they can make and are backordered over a year. A M&H repro would be lucky if 500 were sold. There just isn't enough interest to make it economically feasible.
Ever hear of CAS? It's a popular sport as well, with nationals etc. I know about BPCR, but that does not mean there is a greater market. It's a postulate, not a fact.
-
Settle down...
Scouts Out!
-
Settle down...
Scouts Out!
Not to worry all is cool here, there simply is no evidence that there exists a larger market for the one than the other. Markets are in fact established for both.
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Not to worry all is cool here, there simply is no evidence that there exists a larger market for the one than the other. Markets are in fact established for both.
[/color]
There are? How can there be an "established" market for a gun that has never made it to the market? It doesn't take a marketing genius to figure out the market for an M&H would be small. The question is can money be made tooling up for such a niche firearm?
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[/color]
There are? How can there be an "established" market for a gun that has never made it to the market? It doesn't take a marketing genius to figure out the market for an M&H would be small. The question is can money be made tooling up for such a niche firearm?
There is an established market for vintage reproduction pistols associated with the west. Let me point something out, when I was a kid, if you'd have said any of these cartridge guns and obsolete calibers would be revived you'd have had a dunce cap stapled to your head by gunowners and the gun writing fraternity. Yet, here we are. So, saying there is no market is patently silly and I am not wasting another breath here in a dialogue in which simple logic and reason are taken to task by entrenched positions.
Cheers.
-
I didn't read anything that anyone said here indicating there was NO market, but just a limited market and one that would make producing a niche gun difficult.
-
Just spoke with a friend who attended SHOT Show 2014.
No Merwin . . . No Hulbert.
FYI: Some guy shot a Bigfoot down in San Antonio . . . But the elusive Chupacabra still roams freely from there on South.
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Just spoke with a friend who attended SHOT Show 2014.
No Merwin . . . No Hulbert.
That was because Bottom Dealing Mike got the only one - over at the Antique show! ;D
FYI: Some guy shot a Bigfoot down in San Antonio . . . But the elusive Chupacabra still roams freely from there on South.
-
Looking forward to seeing that on his site, 'Duelist 54'. Hope he shoots it.
-
No Merwin . . . No Hulbert.
No surprise.
-
So, just how many times can you kick a dead horse? Isn't it about time we wiped this bucket dream thread from the site? If you want a MH, buy a real one and stop kidding yourself someone can or will make an affordable reproduction. Even if you hunt hogs from a helicopter, pigs still don't fly. It's a weight to horsepower ratio with no lift capacity thing. Ain'ta gonna happen, no way, no how.
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When you review this thread, it serves as an object lesson.
From the very beginning, there was no substance to it - but there were a lot of 'true believers', and they couldn't bring themselves to believe that it wouldn't happen.
Some even figured that with the advent of new machinery, that an essentially hand-built and hand-fitted, notoriously-difficult-to-machine weapon could be popped out like a Ruger Vaquero, and into their holsters at Cabela's prices.
I've wanted to delete this thread before, but many contacted me to leave it in place to serve as a reminder.
For now, I'll do just that.
If the thread bothers you on some deep, visceral level, then don't read it and don't get your knickers in a wad by responding.
You'll reach a more harmonious outcome...
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Isn't it about time we wiped this bucket dream thread from the site?
Heaven Forfend!
When you review this thread, it serves as an object lesson.
From the very beginning, there was no substance to it - but there were a lot of 'true believers', and they couldn't bring themselves to believe that it wouldn't happen.
....
I've wanted to delete this thread before, but many contacted me to leave it in place to serve as a reminder.
For now, I'll do just that.
Thank You St George, for allowing this to remain -
I personally believe it is important to document and remember such incidents of Snake Oil & Etc.
To remove such a thread is, in my mind, the equivalent of trying to re-write History. It is good to remember these things,
even if it does cause some discomfort to a few Netizens.
Do any of you remember how the Blue Screen Of Death caused a US Missle Frigate to drift "dead in the water" for hours?
"Remember The Yorktown!"
The Navy tried to erase all memory of the event, and even went so far as to decalre the mission a "success".
Smart Ship, Aegis missile cruiser Yorktown.
yhs
prof marvel
-
Thank you St. George.
I also agree to leave it in place for the very reasons you stated. Every once and a while someone will find it and post, thus bringing it back up to the top of the heap serving as a life lesson for us all.
-
This thread has given me a lot of harmless amusement. Thanks for letting it stay.
-
And for further enlightenment, I offer this that's been posted in my Operations Section's office:
It's the Staff Officer's mantra.
'There Is No Horse So Dead That You Can Not Continue To Beat It...'
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
-
Just to show you fools come in all sizes; I drank the M&H juice. Then let it roil in my bowels to the point of dream'ts of a murderous equalization. But, then the refund check came from a more honorable breed that did the proper thing, that is, to stop the lie. No, there will not be a newly produced M&H by this business organization. Nuff said. I'm back to 1900 century Smith & Wesson's, anybody got a hammer for a .44 DA? My 1884 Frontier spit its hammer nose at the last match on the first stage. Had to finish the match with a 1883 cut-down S&W .32 DA. Damned if I didn't take first place shooting WC smokes-less shootist. As if you could get two hands on a vest pocket wheel gun anyway. Uffdaaa!
-
This thread had given me a lot of harmless amusement. Thanks for letting it stay.
AMEN! ;D ;D
Books
-
Saw a M&H in Cabelas about a week ago, was tempted to by it. I still might. WM1
-
WM1,
Do you know what cartridge caliber it is chambered in?
My best,
Blair
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WM1,
Do you know what cartridge caliber it is chambered in?
My best,
Blair
Blair:
Cabela's currently lists 11 M&Ws:
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search.cmd?form_state=searchForm&N=0&fsch=true&Ntk=GunLibrary&Ntt=Merwin&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-Gun+Library&x=0&y=0 (http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search.cmd?form_state=searchForm&N=0&fsch=true&Ntk=GunLibrary&Ntt=Merwin&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-Gun+Library&x=0&y=0)
Cheers,
Mean Bob
-
Mean Bob,
Thank you. Yes, I know.
The OP does not state any caliber information related to the revolver of interest.
My reason for asking this question is due to the difficulty in getting good dimensional and loading data specifically for the .44 cal. M&H cartridge.
I thought the OP may want to know this, if looking at a large frame M&H.
The others cartridge caliber information are usually available.
My best,
Blair
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Mean Bob,
Thank you. Yes, I know.
The OP does not state any caliber information related to the revolver of interest.
My reason for asking this question is due to the difficulty in getting good dimensional and loading data specifically for the .44 cal. M&H cartridge.
I thought the OP may want to know this, if looking at a large frame M&H.
The others cartridge caliber information are usually available.
My best,
Blair
How does one make .44 M&H ammo?
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Mean Bob,
I don't know!
The closest I have found with my own 44 M&H is a .41 mag.
But, this requires being fire formed to fit the chamber.
Do you have a better choice?
My best,
Blair
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Mean Bob,
I don't know!
The closest I have found with my own 44 M&H is a .41 mag.
But, this requires being fire formed to fit the chamber.
Do you have a better choice?
My best,
Blair
No I do not, I have thought about saving for one but I need to get the guns I own already down pat before starting a new project. I am very interested in a .41 Long Colt and if I get one that will probably tie up all my experiementing/new toy time and money for awhile.
Cheers mate
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WM1,
Do you know what cartridge caliber it is chambered in?
My best,
Blair
I believe it is 44, I will check on friday and let you know. wM1
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No I do not, I have thought about saving for one but I need to get the guns I own already down pat before starting a new project. I am very interested in a .41 Long Colt and if I get one that will probably tie up all my experiementing/new toy time and money for awhile.
Cheers mate
I had a friend give me some 41 LC cartridges about 3 weeks ago. (I was buying a 38 S&W from him at the time.) wM1
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I had a friend give me some 41 LC cartridges about 3 weeks ago. (I was buying a 38 S&W from him at the time.) wM1
Most people ask 1.5 to 2+ per round or them.
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Rock Island Auction has a few Merwin revolvers at their upcoming auction, you can google their website to check them out
I'm lucky that I live 40 miles away, and their Thursdays preview days are quite amazing.
BTB
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The .41 LC's rim diameter will be too small for the extraction ring on the cylinder pin/frame to extract these cases.
Same may also be true if one tries to use .44 LC, even if you can get the body dia. of the case small enough to fit in the chambers of the cylinder.
The .41 Mag rim dia. is large enough for the extraction ring to work properly or as intended.
Just a suggestion on my part.
My best,
Blair
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Here is a case dimension chart. I don't see .44 Rem here, but I think it is "close" to .44 Colt.
Here is the chart. make your own comparisons;
http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm
20Jun14; And learn the art of CARTRIDGE CASE CONVERSIONS 8)
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No surprise.
Let me get a stick and poke the dead horse too
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Since my M&H is a junker/shooter I re-chambered it to .44 Russian.
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Pettifogger,
My MH fits your description of junker/shooter in the .44 MH cart. The barrel has also been cut off to roughly 4 3/4".
I would have the barrel "stretched" and sleeved to .429 and the chambers opened up for .44 S&W Russian.
In my opinion, I believe this would be much more practical for shooting than trying to keep it in .44 MH cart.
My best,
Blair
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Blair, the MH that I saw in Cabelas is a 44/40. wM1
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wM1,
That cart. too is, in my opinion, more practical than the .44 MW.
Suggestion, load cartridges to original specs and you should be fine.
My best,
Blair
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I'm thinkin at $3,000 I might have ta just look at it until someone else buys it. wM1
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Pettifogger,
What was involved in converting from 44MH to 44 Russian? Did you reline the barrel?
Regards
Colt
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Colt Fanning,
If you look back to a few earlier postings (reply #262), Sir Charles, links to a forum that has dimensional information on the .44 MH Cartridge. (among many other cartridges)
I believe that info says the Bullet dia. for the .44 MH is .422.
The other two .44 calibers the large frame that MH revolver were manufactured in;
44-40 Winchester = .427 dia. and
44 S&W Russian = .429 dia. bullets.
This would give me reason to believe that something should probably done about the bore size.
Just my opinion, but I cannot say if re-boring & rifling or sleeve/re-lining would be your best option. That may depend on the overall condition of the firearm.
My best,
Blair
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Hi,
Yes there are several possible solutions that to the problem. I was hoping for a response from someone who has successfully done it.
My present thought is to try to enlarge the groves with homemade broach.
regards
Colt
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Pettifogger,
What was involved in converting from 44MH to 44 Russian? Did you reline the barrel?
Regards
Colt
The bores are all over the place. I have .44-40s that vary from .423 to .435. I can't remember the exact bore diameter on the M&H but it was over .425. Close enough that a soft lead slug over BP works fine.
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Here are the chamber and bore dimensions on the (unmodified) .44 MH revolver that I own.
Cylinder = .442 dia. at the breech end.
" = .416 dia. and the face or muzzle end.
Barrel bore = .419 dia. at the breech end.
" " = .419 dia. at the muzzle end. (grove to grove depth on both)
These are measurements for only one .44 MH chambered revolver.
More such measurements would be needed from other revolvers to get a good working idea on making cartridges for this chambering.
Anyone else care to volunteer measurements from their .44 MH chambered revolver?
My best,
Blair
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Hi,
Here are my measurements.
Frontier Army 44-40: Cylinder Breach .474 Front .426 Barrel Bore .4345
Pocket Army 44-40: Cylinder Breach .475 Front .432 Barrel Bore .434 ( Cylinder appears to have been recently reamed.)
Regards
Colt
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Colt Fanning,
Thanks.
You list two revolvers. Are there any cartridge caliber makings on either of your revolvers?
If there are, This maybe on the right or left side of the frame, below the cylinder. (depending on the model)
Those revolvers chambered in the .44 MH chambering will often not have any caliber markings on them. (for most of the large frame 44 models)
My best,
Blair
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Hi,
The frontier army has Cal____ Wi______ 1873. (Winchester 1873?) on the left side.
The Pocket Army has had all lettering polished off the frame and has been case hardened. A very distinct 44 is stamped on
the Rt Hand side and a US stamped on the left side. I think these were stamped after the polishing.
Regards
Colt
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Colt Fanning,
I would suspect the revolver you call the "frontier army" is pretty close to the original cartridge caliber chambering as far as the measurement may take you.
As for the" Pocket Army" model... I would suspect it has been changed or other wise modified.
Just based on my suspicion and what you have told me.
My best,
Blair
-
Hi,
Does anyone know of a hammer spring that will work in a Merwin Hulbert pocket army or of a source for an original part.
I would like to find a replacement before trying to make one.
Regards
Colt
-
ha ! I'm afraid you are mining for unobtainium.... :-\
I chuckle , because I've been there done that , I tried every source I could find , including the Merwin & Hulbert Collectors Organization
for a Double action spring.
Finally, the gun was sent to a fellow in Iowa, who made the spring and got the gun running...
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Finally, the gun was sent to a fellow in Iowa, who made the spring and got the gun running...
This would have been my suggestion--find a smith who can make it for you.
-
I rolled my dice a year ago and talked to them 2 weeks before the new website went up on line. Now hence we have the no refund rule and production near what was I was told. I will post no more on the subject till I have a 45 Colt M-H Pocket Army in my hand.
Fowler, did you forget to take pics and post?
RCJ
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Howdy,
I have determined that the mainspring used in the large frame S&W revolvers (K&N Frame) will function in the Large frame Merwin Hulbert Arms with the addition of a homemade spring extender. The Numerich part number is 315490B. The cost is $10.60.
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Colt Fanning,
It is a good idea!
I have tried doing the same thing using a modern made repro S&W Schofield mainspring in an original # 3 S&W frame.
Response was, at best, rather less than satisfactory.
Starting with an original K or N frame mainspring may have been a better choice. I don't know?
I am still looking for this very long original Smith revolver mainspring.
My best,
Blair
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I had tried that route, you'll note my gun was a skull crusher ...no soap
The spring jammed into the hammer , it would work almost then contact and force the spring to over bend..Snap !
The custom spring has a dog leg and is working , but there are still trigger reset issues and some mistiming in the rotation work continues.
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Howdy,
I have found that mistiming in rotation is usually due to one of the following issues.
1. Hand is too short. I cut notches into the hand, with a dremell diamond cut off tool in a drill press with the hand held in a milling vise, to receive an inlay of tool steel (see JPEG). I make the inlay out of flat ground stock 1/32 in. thick from MSC supply. The part number is 06102206. I solder it to the hand with Hi Force solder from Brownells. It can then be ground with the diamond cut off tool until it correctly advances the cylinder.
2. Bolt notches in cylinder are worn. This is the problem when the cylinder consistently locks on some chambers and over rotates consistently on others. Merwin cylinders are heavy and too soft for rapid cocking. I mill a slot in the cylinder with a 1/16 in. end mill to receive an inlay of the tool steel. ( See jpeg) This must be done accurately so that the cylinder aligns with the barrel when cocked.
3. The bolt spring is too weak. A satisfactory bolt spring can be obtained from Jones Spring Co. The part number is C04-020-020 or for a slightly stiffer spring C04-024-020.
The trigger return on the MH is caused by the hammer spring attached to a finger which pivots on a screw in the hammer. The spring needs to be long enough (see Jpeg) to lift up on the finger rather tha pulling back toward the shooter. I also was having trouble with the spring and link dragging on the hammer and I relieved the hammer with a dremell tool. When this didn't help I discovered that the finger was broken just below the screw and was bending every time I cut more relief. I made a new finger. The sources of friction on the trigger return need to be minimized by lapping the trigger to the bolt and the hand to the ratchet. Too much force from the bolt spring will produce enough friction between the trigger and the bolt to inhibit the trigger return. The trick is to get enough force from the bolt spring to produce reliable lock up but not enough to prevent the trigger return.
Regards
Colt
Disclaimer: I make no representation that any antique firearm with or without the above modifications is safe to shoot. If you desire to shoot any antique firearm, you must have it checked out by a competent gunsmith and shoot it at your own risk. I disclaim liability for all damages resulting from shooting firearms with the above modifications.
-
Opps,
The Hand JPEG didn't post and is attached. The spring position can be observed in my previous post.
-
Fowler, did you forget to take pics and post?
RCJ
Ah My Dear RC John -
Let us be charitable to the poor fellow and not rub salt in the wound....
however, since soemone poked the odiferous corpus with a stick I thought to look about and lo and behold, we discover that the folks who recieved their refunds owe it all to someone they probably never heard of!
Please Be Aware: Those who got refunds, it was not due to Mike Blank, or Kevin Tierney ( the self-titled turn-around specialist Blank went to) .
You owe your refunds to Wyoming native Jay Lesser who worked for each of the previous owners.
Here is my heavily edited version of an article posted July 21, 2013 12:00 pm
http://trib.com/business/poor-management-unfilled-orders-lead-to-glenrock-business-s-failure/article_ed53d03c-7138-5c34-9806-a80817f29ff6.html
We are familiar with the story just prior to the refunds. Blank had CAD drawings, some prototype parts, a building,
and $143,000 in deposits. From the below story it would appear he had no intention of making any refunds.
let us review these snips from the article:
-----
- Art Alphin promised to move A-Square Rifle and ammunition company to Glenrock, WY.
- Glenrock built a $1.5 mill facility for Alphin to lease and to employ 23 locals.
- Alphin proved to be unreliable, and after a federal investigation Glenrock pushed for new leadership
- new owners took over, named the business Sharps Rifle Co, and took orders to build M&H revolvers
- the new owners Michael Blank and Al Jones, brochures and computer-generated images but were unable to produce
products.
- Michael Blank approached Tearney in the summer of 2011 .
- Under a re-org Blank turned over to Tierney the remaining equipment estimated @ ~ $70,000.
They had no products, no income, no way to pay rent, and a liability of $1.5 million facility and equipment, Tierney said the best thing the company could do was surrender to its creditors.
In early 2012, he arranged a deal on rent payments with the town of Glenrock that would allow him to raise new capital to start rifle production.
At about the same time Clyde Hutchins, (senior assistant attorney general for Wyoming) led a Wyoming attorney general's investigation into the company in 2012.
"Hutchins said investigators found roughly 140 consumer complaints dating back to 2009. When paying customers asked Sharps Rifle Co. for a refund, they were told no refunds were available."
"Investigators never saw a finished pistol, Hutchins said, though the business's owners, Michael Blank and Al Jones, offered plenty of flashy brochures and computer-generated images. In 2012, the AG's office mandated the company refund the customers, who paid a collective $143,000 to Sharps Rifle Company."
Tierney was ~ $1 million away from reaching his start-up purse, when Jay Lesser and an unknown financier bought it.
"Jay Lesser is now the president of Broadsword Group, a limited liability company that owns every enterprise that has come before it in the Glenrock building. Despite lofty projections of dozens of helping hands at the factory and millions of dollars in sales, not one of the previous companies employed more than four people, Lesser said. He estimated fewer than 40 guns have come off the line there. Today he oversees a six-man operation that recently turned out its first loads of ammunition, packaged and ready for sale.
“I’ve always looked at this as the Field of Dreams,” Lesser said. “Build it, and they will come.”
He started by mailing refunds to people who deposited money on Merwin Hulbert pistols that never came. He built and shipped rifles that A-Square and Alphin never produced, he said.
And unlike his predecessors, Lesser said, he will not take a dime until a finished product is packaged and ready to go. The company plans to manufacture bullets and rifles on site and have 20 employees by the first of next year. "
read this article for the details:
http://trib.com/business/poor-management-unfilled-orders-lead-to-glenrock-business-s-failure/article_ed53d03c-7138-5c34-9806-a80817f29ff6.html
interestingly, I see the thread we had in which one of the prior head honchos replied to us has been deleted.
yhs
prof marvel
-
Prof M; There is a use for the "quote" button to save stuff that may get deleted by the poster!
-
Hi,
Does anyone know of any description, photos, or drawings of the tooling MH used to make their revolvers? It is hard to understand how some parts like the top strap where it locks to the frame were made.
Regards
Colt
-
Colt Fanning,
Its my understanding that NO revolvers were made up. A few internal parts but no revolvers.
The lock up is on the bottom front of the frame on all of the originals I have seen. The hammer has to be in the safety cock notch before the release button can be operated, allowing the opening the revolver.
My best,
Blair
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hi,
I am talking about about how the original MH revolvers were made. The part that I didn't see how it could be made is the top strap on the models with a top strap where it joins the frame above the hammer. Sorry for the confusion.
Regards
Colt
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Colt Fanning,
Simple answer to your question is no.
No drawings or photos of the tooling used to manufacture the original MH revolves.
You maybe surprised to know that MH does not manufacture their product. This was contracted out to Hopkins & Allen.
My best,
Blair
-
There's also been observations made that the above-mentioned parts weren't new-made, but were well-cleaned originals touted to be new production.
My money's on that.
When dreaming of Merwin, Hulberts, and new production and fantasies - remember the old Staff Officer's mantra:
There Is No Horse So Dead That You Can Not Continue To Beat It'.
Scouts Out!
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St. George,
I suspect your "money" would be well invested where the "new" MH & Co. is/are concerned.
I miss understood Colt Fanning's request.
I tried to reply to that question with what info I had on the "new" MH & Co. guns.
I can in all honesty, say that I was trying to bring the topic back to the original firearms and stay within my working knowledge of these original arms.
I do not consider discussions of the original firearms as beating a dead horse.
My best,
Blair
-
Hi,
Does anyone know of any description, photos, or drawings of the tooling MH used to make their revolvers? It is hard to understand how some parts like the top strap where it locks to the frame were made.
Regards
Colt
I believe (someone correct me if wrong) they were supposed to be CNC machined, so each part would be cut out of steel using a computer generated drawing (that is, a set of numerical instructions fed into the computer) and then hand finished and fitted. Someone here who knows the pistol/manufacturing might be able to give you an idea as to how expensive that would be using American labor and materiel prices.
-
Howdy,
The internal parts of a MH are similar in shape to those used in modern double action revolvers and I would think they could be made with the same type of tooling used today. (probably mostly CNC) It is the barrel and frame that are the challenge. BTW after some thought I realized how the top strap could be machined.
Regards
Colt
-
The road to hell is paved with good intentions...old proverb and quite appropriate...
There have been Flim Flam artists, frankly I think one or more of this crowd was just that....
I don't believe enough NEW parts were ever produced let alone a complete gun...
Freshen up original parts, maybe some fancy CAD draw prints beyond that nothing and perhaps that was the intent.
That's what Fletcher & Bidwell and the Spencer folly was about...
> I understand the gun I had (sold) and posted above, has had a spring produced , however it has again returned to back burner
status as there were still issues.
I would have loved to seen it working, but my patience and willingness to spend unknown dollars wore out, when another project presented itself.
-
For your entertainment:
someone wanted to know how the barrel attached - here is a photo of an original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/twaits/IMGP4664.jpg
The Failed Merwin hired a CADCAM shop Salient Tech in Bozeman,
https://www.elance.com/samples/merwin-hulbert-rendering-salient-technologies-product-design-3d-scanning-prototyping-industrial-desi/27759005/
http://salient-tech.com/happy-clients-2/
to make up the software,
and I found this photobucket from the efforts in Wyoming:
http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/SharpsMilSpec/library/MerwinHulbertCo?sort=3&page=1
in one of the photos you can see a very dark grey plastic prototype on the work table.
I counted 5 or 6 frames, cylinders, and cylinder pins in the photos. Lord only knows where they went.
I suppose one could contact the new boss, Jay , but I doubt one could afford them...
yhs
prof marvel
-
you probably already know , the frames are Single actions note: the main and trigger return springs
mine was a double action... whole different main spring and trigger reset.
-
You all need to focus you attention on the historical aspect of firearms.
This is, after all a forum based on cowboy, pre 1900 types of arms and how they were made then (not how they might or could be made now, more than 100 years later)
If you all want to try to keep your quest for info within this restrictions, I'll be more than pleased to try to reply within the limits of knowledge. Otherwise, forget it!!!
My best,
Blair
-
Blair
the OP of this thread was asking about the Company,
or the attempt of the failed Company to make M & H since about 2005.
Granted the thread has ebbed & flowed... :)
-
+1 on what Major 2 said. Here is the original post that has generated 13 pages of discussion over many years:
"Has anything ever come of the company that was wanting to reproduce the Merwin Hulberts? Are they still around and actually producing guns?"
-
I love this dusty trail
-
Howdy,
The photobucket pictures in the link posted by Prof Marvel of the new MH revolvers appear to show then with case hardened frames. Were any of the original MH revolvers made with this finish? I have seen originals only in Chrome and Blued.
Regards
Colt
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Colt Fanning,
Chrome?
Sorry, I can't and wont help you.
Not until you do some research.
My best,
Blair
-
Hi,
Yes Chrome is wrong, I meant nickle. I realized the error about 30 min after I posted.
Regards
Colt
-
The photobucket images are drawings...
They were merely meant to illustrate to potential investors the project and to generate belief that progress was being made in order to lure investment capital.
They failed and no revolvers or spares were produced.
Now as to spares for the Merwin, Hulbert revolver - be it large frame or small - spares reside inside revolvers owned by others, who are quite proud of them, as a general rule.
You 'might' find something sitting in a cigar box at a gun show, somewhere - but you're not going to be able to order anything from a supplier of parts.
Art Phelps (now deceased) wrote a most interesting book on the Merwin, Hulbert revolvers - I would seriously suggest locating a copy and reading it - then reading it again.
Scouts Out!
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Howdy,
The reason that I posed the question is that I own a MH pocket army which has been refinished with case hardening on the frame. I was wondering if any of the originals were case hardened. I have only seen them in Nickle or Blue.
Regards
Colt
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Those are the original two finishes offered - casehardening wasn't, though it's often seen today on firearms that never had it when new.
Scouts Out!
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Hi,
Does anyone know of any description, photos, or drawings of the tooling MH used to make their revolvers? It is hard to understand how some parts like the top strap where it locks to the frame were made.
Howdy
I have no actual information about the actual tooling and fixtures used to make the Merwin Hulbert, but examining one closely can give some clues. The barrel rotated around the cylinder pin or arbor when latching and unlatching it. The matching cuts in the frame and barrel that allow the parts to nest together are radial, centered around the cylinder pin. So my best guess is the parts would have been mounted in a fixture that centered the parts at the cylinder pin, allowing the parts to rotate, while the cuts were made with a profiled cutter.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Merwin%20Hulbert/merwinhulbertopen_zps43b064c0.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/Merwin%20Hulbert/merwinhulbertmajorparts_zps7bebe296.jpg)
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Howdy,
What I was puzzled about until I thought about it for awhile was the machining of the renterant slot on the end of the top strap.
I now see that the recess in front of it is wide enough to allow a hook shaped boring bar to enter and be be moved backward to cut the slot. As for rotating around the axis of the center pin, this could be done as you suggest by holding the work in a fixture or by having the center pin housing extend beyond the end of the barrel to mount in a chuck while the machining was done. It would then be cut back to the proper length after machining of the top strap etc. Seeing things like this puzzle me until I can figure out how they were done.
Regards
Colt
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Howdy
Regarding blued or nickeled MHs, the great majority of the photos in Art Phelps' book The Story of Merwin Hulbert & Co. Firearms show nickel plated guns. there are very few blued guns in the book. He does state in one caption that 'blued guns are very rare, only about 5% of production.' However it is unclear to this reader whether the 5% figure meant overall production or the specific model pictured.
In the back of the book there is a reprint of the John P. Lovell 1890 Guns and Hunting Supplies catalog. It lists a large assortment of MH revolvers. The catalog states they were available blued or nickel plated, with no difference in price. There is no mention of Case Hardening.
I know over at Smith and Wesson during the 19th Century they produced more nickel plated guns than blued. The reason is probably because the gun blues of the time were not as robust as the blue used to today, and did not afford as much protection against corrosion as nickel plating did.
Thinking back, I do not recall ever seeing a blued Merwin Hulbert, all the ones I recall seeing were nickel plated.
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Prescott shoot got cancelled, looks like I'll have to wait on the M&H. :P wM1
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Howdy,
I would very much like to read Art Phelps book but it is out of print and the prices that are quoted approach the cost of a low end MH revolver.
Regards
Colt
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Howdy
There are a couple of books available at Amazon right now for $299 or $300. You ain't going to find an original Merwin Hulbert anywhere for that price. I don't remember what I paid for my copy, probably a bit less than that, but it was expensive.
Look at it this way. It is not a great book. It is the only book on the subject, so pretty much all the collective knowledge comes from the Art Phelps book. The photos are good, and there is some good historical information. But I find that Phelps was quite biased, particularly the way he thought that the machining was so precise on a Merwin Hulbert that nobody else could have built them, which is ridiculous. If they had a mind to, Smith and Wesson could have built the Merwin Hulbert design, there is nothing in it more precise than anything Smith and Wesson was capable of doing. They simply choose not to. I strongly suspect the reason behind the unusual design of the MH was because of patent restrictions on some of the other better known designs of the time. S&W were very fierce about pursing patent violators.
And the S&W Top Break designs really were superior to the MH. As I believe I have said earlier, to unload and load a Smith all you had to do was break it open. All the cartridges would eject and the gun was open and ready to reload. With the MH design, once you have popped it open to empty it, you have to close the gun up and reload one at a time through a loading gate, not much different than a Colt. There was no way to load the MH while it was broken open.
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Howdy
There are a couple of books available at Amazon right now for $299 or $300. You ain't going to find an original Merwin Hulbert anywhere for that price. I don't remember what I paid for my copy, probably a bit less than that, but it was expensive.
Look at it this way. It is not a great book. It is the only book on the subject, so pretty much all the collective knowledge comes from the Art Phelps book. The photos are good, and there is some good historical information. But I find that Phelps was quite biased, particularly the way he thought that the machining was so precise on a Merwin Hulbert that nobody else could have built them, which is ridiculous. If they had a mind to, Smith and Wesson could have built the Merwin Hulbert design, there is nothing in it more precise than anything Smith and Wesson was capable of doing. They simply choose not to. I strongly suspect the reason behind the unusual design of the MH was because of patent restrictions on some of the other better known designs of the time. S&W were very fierce about pursing patent violators.
And the S&W Top Break designs really were superior to the MH. As I believe I have said earlier, to unload and load a Smith all you had to do was break it open. All the cartridges would eject and the gun was open and ready to reload. With the MH design, once you have popped it open to empty it, you have to close the gun up and reload one at a time through a loading gate, not much different than a Colt. There was no way to load the MH while it was broken open.
Well put and I agree with everything you say in regards to the MH and S&W. Both great guns but the Smith & Wesson's are superior for the reasons you stated.
Will Ketchum
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Within my experience, and that has on been with only 5 or 6 MH revolvers (two of which I own), there is a lack of interchangeability within model types that are/or should be very similar.
I have not found this to be an issue within S&W models of a similar or of the same type.
My best,
Blair
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...Thinking back, I do not recall ever seeing a blued Merwin Hulbert, all the ones I recall seeing were nickel plated.
http://www.ocyoung.com/Merwin.htm
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Regarding Art's book -
With the current prices being asked for the few extant copies, I have to wonder why another run, ie 3rd or 4th edition , has not been considered by the principles. In the nearly 25 years since the last edition, computerized publication would make it cost effective and one "ought to" be able to put out another softcover edition in, let us say a $30-$40 price range and I suspect it would sell like hotcakes!
Is Art still around?
yhs
prof marvel
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No.
He died awhile back.
Scouts Out!
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With a bit of browsing I discovered these nice links for self-publishing:
http://www.schulerbooks.com/schuler-books-presents-espresso-book-machine
http://www.bly.com/Pages/documents/ART4H.htm
http://ask.metafilter.com/252970/How-to-self-publish-a-book-that-is-out-of-print
http://www.sellbox.com/re-publishing-out-of-print-book-after-rights-reversion/
http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2013/05/the-real-costs-of-self-publishing-book/
https://www.createspace.com/en/community/thread/23044
But since Art passed, I fear that complicates things. If the rights reverted to his heirs someone would have to contact them and convince them to pursue this worthy endevour, or take up the flag and acquire the rights themselves . I fear too many of us half otherwise useful lives to chase that nightmare waiting to happen white whale unicorn ...
That could be nearly as much of a headache as to try to restart a Merwin and Hulbert Revolver factory ... I need to stop jousting with windmills.
yhs
prof marvel
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I seriously doubt you'd be the first to attempt to get the heirs to re-publish.
Some things take time - and the clock that runs for them is not the one you're using, so all I can say is to be patient.
The same can be said about McDowell's book on Colt Conversions, Brunner's on Colt Pocket Automatics and Peer's on Snub-Nose Colts - 'all' need to be re-published, but no one's in any hurry to do so.
Scouts Out!
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Thinking back, I do not recall ever seeing a blued Merwin Hulbert, all the ones I recall seeing were nickel plated.
Have to correct myself. Happy Trails has a blued one chambered for the 44 MH cartridge. He made up some ammo for it using 41 Magnum cases as his starting point.
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Have to correct myself. Happy Trails has a blued one chambered for the 44 MH cartridge. He made up some ammo for it using 41 Magnum cases as his starting point.
How difficult was making 44 MH cartridges from 41 mag? wM1
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I haven't done this one, but a look at a case dimension chart makes it look very feasible. Cartridge case conversions are necessary when one is interested in uncommon cartridges. Not much of assistance on a search.
http://bullet-blog.com/44-merwin-hulbert-2/
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/364946-44-merwin-hulbert.htmlhttp://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/364946-44-merwin-hulbert.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0b5rlvggPbc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSea9_Mt1ok
Depending on your revolver dimensions, it seems that .424 is the usual bullet diameter. You might have to obtain a sizing die in this diameter. Or, perhaps find a bullet closer in diameter, for example from here;
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html See page 9, the .422-195 designed for the Glisenti, but resizing common .44-40 bullets would be much cheaper.
It might take some fiddling and a choice of dies and case prep tools, but here are the steps, after determining your revolver's chamber & bore dimensions;
http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm
1. compare base diameters and case length. .41RM base .433; Case L. 1.28 . bullet dia. .410
.44 M-H .444 1.16 .422
2. Shorten the .41 RM case to 1.16". The base is a bit small, but will eventually fireform. It is not enough to cause a safety problem.
3. Choose a neck expansion die to open the neck just enough to hold a bullet. C-H4D has a selection to choose from. After the first reload, you might try a .44-40 sizing die to choke the case neck enough to hold a bullet.
http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/expanding/tmp
4. Load in the normal manner. FOR AN ORIGINAL (the only kind available) USE BLACKPOWDER ONLY! I think a .41RM die set with the .41RM shell holder might do to assemble your ammo, but any of the common .44 dies might also do?? (CH4D have over 2000 calibers listed for their dies. I don't see this one, but I suggest you might ask.)
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Sir Charles,
I believe the issue with using .41 Mag cases for the .44 MH is in the rim diameter of the cases.
The .41 Mag rim is just a bit too small (.488) to allow the extraction ring within the .44 MH (.500) to extract spent cases reliably when the revolver is opened. Measurements vary greatly when it comes to the .44 MH cartridge when you can find them.
My experience with checking my .44 MH, rims for .41 Mag case are too small to extract.
My best,
Blair
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Blair; Your experience trumps my speculation, but I see in my search there are frequent references to .41RM
I just found an old thread from 2009. Montanian, used .44 Special brass but swaged down to fit the chambers. Using the .41 RM might be easier to make if shooting something is the objective, with the drawback of having to poke em out with a stick. RedGreen suggests 9.3 x 72 R cases, trimmed. I have a box of 19 loaded Sellier & Bellot rounds in this caliber. (the other round was shortened to .360 Express, 9.3 x 57R, for an old Husqvarna cape gun.) This is a relatively rare rifle round and might need inside neck reaming??
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,19624.0.html
I just went back to reread the above thread and the last post in 2014 was by Blair. 8)
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Sir Charles,
I believe I may have even recommended using .41 Mag cases.
This was what I used to work up loads for my .44 S&W American.
They worked very well. But, the S&W extraction star works on about 1/3 of the cartridge case rim diameter. Whereas, on the MH, there is a very small amount of the rim that comes in contact the extraction ring.
When I checked my .44 Americans in the MH revolver, they fit very well. I, however, did not think about trying the extraction system. I only checked for chamber fit.
I still have not shot the MH, but because of this very long thread, I have gone back to check on how well they extract in the MH. Not good! Extraction was none, but being un fired, the rounds just fell out.
Starting with .44 Special maybe a better bet. And there are companies out there that will make alterations to common cases. If, they have the measurements of the case you need?
My best,
Blair
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Howdy Again
All I know is that Happy Trails used 41 Magnum brass to make ammo for his 44 Merwin Hulbert revolver. He did mention something about a discrepancy of dimensions, but said it was not a problem.
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Hey Driftwood I saw a M&H today. Gent told me it was rare. It was a 38 caliber small frame, had the skull crusher grip frame on it. The barrel was marked Hopkins and Allen, the frame was marked Merwin Hulbert on the left side and 38 cal on the right side. It had about 95% of the nickel remaining. wM1
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wildman1,
I have seen one midsize frame DA with the "skull" crusher grip in .38 S&W. (perhaps more rare than the basic square butt grip?)
It was very cool! But it also had a 5 1/2 " or 6" barrel on it. (I don't remember which)
Without a full size frame DA next to it, it was difficult to see the difference between the two sizes.
My best,
Blair
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This was a short barrel I think 3 1/2 or 4". Pard told me he could find no evidence that they were made. wM1