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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Cutting Edge => Topic started by: GunClick Rick on November 21, 2009, 12:27:28 PM

Title: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on November 21, 2009, 12:27:28 PM
Do you sharpen a handmade damascus blade different than others?A friend that has an antique store has a nice patch knife with handmade damascus blade.Think i might do some tradin fer it,it's a nice anlter damacuss,very well made.Nice fold lines and file work.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Dave Cole on November 21, 2009, 11:55:34 PM
Rick, sharpen it as you would all others.Now where you remove metal it will also remove the etching so it will be shiney.If thats ok your done.If you want the etch redone on the edge, you will need some Ferric Chloride (circuit board etchant from Radio Shack) mixed with some water ( I use about a 50-50 mix).Dab it on with a Q-tip and let it sit until the color comes back to match and then spray the blade down with Windex or window cleaner with ammonia and dry.Some use Muratic for this instead of FC but it is quite a bit more volatile to work with. But use the proper precautions with both chemicals, plenty of ventilation, glasses and gloves.Contact me if you have any questions.Dave   :)
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on November 22, 2009, 11:03:28 PM
Well i did some swappin and this is what i got.Already had the edge on it.Thanks very much for the education Dave.

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/gunclickrick/patchknife007.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/gunclickrick/patchknife008.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/gunclickrick/patchknife010.jpg)
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on November 24, 2009, 02:44:09 PM
Ain't no good?? ???
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: St. George on November 26, 2009, 03:00:27 PM
The modern-day spacers throw things off quite a bit for me - along with the hilt.

It's too 'modern' - not 'Old West'.

That, and I was never enthralled by 'buckskinner' doo-dads.

There's an awful lot of Damascus available, today - much of it coming out of India - this looks llike one of the offerings from Dixie from a couple of catalogs back.

If 'you' like it and got a fair deal on it, then be happy with your swap - but if you got it just because it was a Damascus blade, then you may want to keep looking.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Dave Cole on November 26, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
Hard to tell Rick, but I suspect that St.George is right. Don't look that bad to me and if you like it and the price, then have some fun with it.
He is definately right about the amount of damascus out there and the amount coming in from overseas.They have a tendency to put in unknown steels or steels that don't mix well together, so you usually get what you pay for.If you notice most of those Damascus knives or blanks sell for $50 or under,that should tell you, its probably not US made.

There are however quite a few quality damascus makers here in the US.Be prepared to pay $10-$20 an inch for the good stuff and that is for an uncut billet. With these makers the patterns available are endless.The Damascus maker I am using now is Chad Nichols, and he's extremely creative  with his, super guy too  http://www.chadsknivesanddamascus.com/ (http://www.chadsknivesanddamascus.com/)

Hope this helps.Dave
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on November 28, 2009, 10:02:22 AM
FWIW,

I have never had anyone come up to me and comment about whether my kit was historically accurate ... in fact, I have seen modern Randall and K-bar products riding in a leather sheath on a gunbelt.

Although we all try to be as historically correct as possible, my namesake would probably have been carrying a breechloading shotgun and, if he owned any at all, ONE cap and Ball revolver of some kind. Not two pistols, a Model 87 and a Model 73...

So I feel like the members above ... if it brings you fun, if it looks period from ten feet, well enjoy!

And we won't even go near talking about the 'historical correctness' of the revamped three wheeled ex-stroller guncarts or the people lounging underneath the canopy of their Winnebagos, sitting in plastic Adirondack chairs ....
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on November 28, 2009, 10:17:41 PM
I'm not real crazy about the style either but it was the best one i had seen in a while so i thought i would ad it to the shelf goods display.Wait till ya see the next one i get,it's NASTY!  ::) It's a bigin too.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: St. George on November 28, 2009, 10:55:57 PM
Given that this forum's more concerned with period knives and knives made like the originals were, let's try to keep it to those styles, OK?

I don't have any problem whatsoever in keeping things on track with the 'delete' key.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on November 28, 2009, 11:10:14 PM
I stand corrected. Mea Culpa.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Books OToole on November 30, 2009, 04:32:57 PM
I'm curious;  Can anybody document a Damascus blade in the old west?
[Old West = 1860-1900 & west of the Mississippi.]

Inquiring minds want to know.

Books
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on November 30, 2009, 05:04:12 PM
Books,

This is just a hunch, but Toledo Steel (i.e. from a variation of the Damascus process) was the bees knees for rapiers, foils and such and was respected throughout the Latin world and its colonies. Although some English shotguns used damascene or Toledo processes, I am guessing that the name would have been much more of a selling point in a an hispanic country ...

http://www.swordsfromtoledo.com/history.htm
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: The Elderly Kid on November 30, 2009, 05:37:29 PM
The mines near Toledo were producing iron that made superior sword steel as far back as Roman times. Getting control of those mines was as much an aim of Roman aggression as cutting off Hannibal's support from Africa. They liked it so much that they adopted their "gladius hispaniensis," (Spanish sword) from the Iberians. Some of these were of damascus construction but even simple-forged Spanish swords were better than anything produced by the Romans.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Dave Cole on November 30, 2009, 08:36:49 PM
Quote from: Books OToole on November 30, 2009, 04:32:57 PM
I'm curious;  Can anybody document a Damascus blade in the old west?
[Old West = 1860-1900 & west of the Mississippi.]

Inquiring minds want to know.

Books

I don't know if this link will help you , but I have seen gun barrels from that era done.
http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/hist.htm (http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/hist.htm)

Also if you read Chuck Burrows thread here , he offers up some info. One big problem is that the "damascus" being produced is really and should be called" pattern-welded steel", it's just picked up the name and it stuck.So you have "wootz" steel, "San-Mai" steel and Pattern welded.You can also throw another one in the mix with  "Mokume" which is a forged mixture of non-ferrous metals such as copper,brass, and nickel silver.Dave ;D
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on December 01, 2009, 12:17:21 AM
What about Samuri swords,were they not made by but a few of the best families that were known for such?

We had a guy come through town once that was buying up swords that had come to this country as souvaniers after the war.My father in law had passed and ma needed money so i went with my sis in law to the motel where he was staying,the sword i had, had been cut down at the handle,there were circles cut in the handle under the wood which i thought was like a signature of the maker,they would cut them down to fit the individual.
The sheath was covered in cherry wood bark as was the handle,still had the bumps where the stems grew.I probably could have asked any amount for it,this guy had a satchel full of money and he threw 500.00 down and out of respect i guess i let it go at that,had to go through an interprature and they were both japanese,the guy with the money must have been someone of power and it was like i should not speak directly to him,i took the money reluctantly and he gestured at me with a nod and the go between said he was very pleased.
My sis in law asked if we got enough and i told her,ya got more than ya had.There was a large pile of swords up against the wall behind him too,i said goodbye and we left.I had a japanes silk flag in my inside coat pocket and would have gave it to him but did not know the protocall of such doings,didn't want to affend,i gave it to an old soldier that had a small museum of war stuff,was told it was a pilots flag,one red circle no beams on white silk.
Sorry for strayin off topic a bit.Interesting reading on those links..
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on December 01, 2009, 12:47:35 AM
This is what I have been told, and I have no verification of what I was told ...

But my source is a Japanese American friend who is very skilled at Bushido and Kendo (The art of the sword).

He says that the Japanese had also discovered that art of Damascus, but had another name for it ...

According to my friend, it was this process that accounted for the strength of Japanese steel and blades ...

Again, I'm just sayin ... anyone with verification?
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: St. George on December 01, 2009, 08:53:22 AM
Staying 'on point' seems to be a real problem for this thread.

If information's going to be offered up - do some simple research first, since the various 'martial artists' are wrapped up in their versions of history and too much is hearsay.

If someone goes to one of the 'motel guys' - be advised that much of it's stage dressing - and those artifacts are being artfully arranged for maximum visual impact - and sometimes, they even hire 'wise old men' to pontificate about things, when they ply their hustle.

Were 'damascus' blades available during the era - even faked ones?

Sure - somewhere...

Were they used oin the American West and actually mentioned by name?

I've never seen any sort of reference beyond something in a Louis L'Amour book or two, when one of his characters was carrying a 'blade'.

Japanese blades are a study unto themselves - there are scholarly tomes dedicated to their idiosyncracies.

So are those knives actually associated with the American Frontier - and we're most concerned with those types and styles.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!







Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Josh Dabney on December 01, 2009, 01:13:01 PM
This is a great discussion !
Since I'm a knifemaker it is of particular interest to me.

Period correct-  I understand this to mean, an object produced with materials and technology available for the time period.

I would love others opinions on this "definition" of mine.

I do tend to agree with St.George that there probably weren't many ninjas running around with their MYSTICAL swords. (misinformation galore on the subject of Japanese blades out there)

However oversees travel was common during this era so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilty for knives of this type to have been in the Old West, they certainly were in Japan.

Damascus, (pattern welded not wootz)- Lets stick with some with basic facts and see what conclusions logic gives.
The process of pattern welding was well known during this era and was in fact in use for shotgun barrels
The process for making damascus was never LOST, just out of favor for some time BEFORE the 19th century
Edited to add this link     http://damascus-barrels.com/Time_Line.html

Conclusion-The information on pattern welding WAS available during the 19th century

Really all thats needed to make damascus is two types of steel (one with enough carbon to harden and another), a forge, anvil, and hammer.  Blacksmiths of the 19th century were very skilled individuals not only shoe-ing ponys but also making things like nails, hinges, belt buckles, etc. etc. etc.  Any local blacksmith worth a salt could make a damascus knife out of a RR spike and a piece of wrought iron.  Damascus isn't difficult to make it's just very labor intensive.

I would agree that damascus knives we're probably uncommon in the USA during the 19th century but would also say I would consider any random or twist (ladder) pattern to be Period Correct.

On to the original posters knife.  Looks to be made of steel, antler, brass, and red spacer material (???) The red is probably something modern, however red leather spacers wouldn't have been a problem back then.  Not necessarily my personal taste but it looks like a knife any blacksmith COULD have made in 1801.  

Thats my take on the discussion thus far Pards.  Some of the ideas are my personal opinion and I welcome any further discussion of them... even you think I'm flat out wrong and crazy I'd like to hear what yall think.

-Josh  ;D

.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: The Elderly Kid on December 01, 2009, 01:23:07 PM
I've seen a single photo of a 19th century Bowie purported to have been made in India. I've further read that Bowies were made in British India, shipped to England and from there to America during the great Bowie craze of the early 19th century. Why the Brits should do this when Sheffield was a world capital of cutlery is a definitely "coals to Newcastle" problem. Maybe somebody saw a way to undercut the Sheffield cartel. I've never handled one of these Indian Bowies so I don't know if any of them were of Wootz steel, but it's a possibility and that would be a sort of Damascus or pattern-welding or what have you.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on December 01, 2009, 10:46:01 PM
I was just wondering about the blade on this one and if it was in fact pounded and folded.I can see the pattern on the edges of the knife and looks like file work on the top like i have seen makers do, and it is antler and modern stuff probably made by a reinactor or for such for a patch knife.Just lookin for info.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on December 01, 2009, 11:00:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lefever_Grade_G_Damascus_Barrels.jpg
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Books OToole on July 21, 2010, 03:44:47 PM
So...

After reviewing this thread again; no one has any hard evidence of a damascus bladed knife in the 1860-1900 "old west."

I have brought this up again because I just acquired a great, antler handled "bowie" with a 9" damascus blade.  All aspects of this knife are dead on correct* except for being damascus.

Any thoughts; or better yet, documentation.

Books


*circa 1850-1870
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Will Ketchum on July 21, 2010, 05:55:34 PM
Well Mike I don't have any documentation.  I was told by the guy I acquired my Persian knife from that it had been in this country for over 200 years.  I do know from the "experts" on Antique Roadshow that it is probably that old, and I think Jim Downing concurred when he looked at it at the convention.  Was it on the Western frontier, probably not, but it could have been. ;)

If I were including it in my profile as an Original I would have it being brought back by an ancestor who served in the US Marines against the Barbary pirates.

Pete
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on July 21, 2010, 06:42:11 PM
Damascus steel was a 'process', and was kept secret by the guild-like circles of swordsmiths who made it

At the same time, a very similar process was being used in Toledo, Spain, India (also known as Wootz steel). In Japan the wonderful samurai swords and katanas were also being made in very similar techniques ...

Since there was not such thing as NDI (Non Destructive Inspections), one had only the word of the seller, the pedigree of he maker (if known) and the sword/knife's charateristics to go by ....

Here are some interesting site on Damascus Steel ....

http://damascus.free.fr/f_exp/com.htm

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

I am enclosing pics of a modern Belduque made by Josh Dabney and a Wootz Steel Bowie that was 'improved by Chuck

(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Belduque476.jpg)

(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/knife-sheath-baker-02.jpg)

Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Dave Cole on July 21, 2010, 10:26:59 PM
I don't think you'll find much documentation of common knives  being made with damascus in the Old West.That being said the steel was being produced in that era, and was being used.There is evidence of damascus rifle and shotgun barrels.There are a few items in Flayderman's "The Bowie Knife" , one in the Army and Navy Journal April 27,1867 stating the Bowie "excellent material, true damascus was never better".That could be taken several ways but it shows that folks knew about the steel, and another historian in the book states that "since no one can provide the formula for the Bowie knife we should investigate what is known of the Syrian blades."

Was it common in the Old West, absolutely not, was it used,IMO absolutely.Dave
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on July 22, 2010, 12:22:50 AM
I have kind of an excuse for all my Damascus (besides I love the look lol) ...

Living in Sacramento, we were but an overnight steam from San Francisco, where ships were arriving from all over the globe ...

So it would not be out fo the ordinary to buy a high end trade Bowie or Belduque, or to have a well known swordsmith from any one of those ports make one ....

That's my story and i am stickin' to it ... *S*
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Books OToole on July 22, 2010, 04:47:25 PM
Quote from: Will Ketchum on July 21, 2010, 05:55:34 PM

If I were including it in my profile as an Original I would have it being brought back by an ancestor who served in the US Marines against the Barbary pirates.

Pete

Well now, if my geography is correct: Persia is Iran, and Barbary pirates are Algerian.  Those arn't quite the same.

An imported damascus knife is not the same as a distinctive Amercican style made with damascus steel.

I will check the Flayderman's book.  Other than that, we still haven't gotten any documentation.

To all;

I'm not trying to start a fight, I am trying to expand my knowlege.

Books
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Will Ketchum on July 22, 2010, 05:00:23 PM
Quote from: Books OToole on July 22, 2010, 04:47:25 PM
Well now, if my geography is correct: Persia is Iran, and Barbary pirates are Algerian.  Those arn't quite the same.

An imported damascus knife is not the same as a distinctive Amercican style made with damascus steel.

I will check the Flayderman's book.  Other than that, we still haven't gotten any documentation.

To all;

I'm not trying to start a fight, I am trying to expand my knowlege.

Books

You are correct but this area was a hot bed for trade.  There is much evidence of trade between Persia and Tripoli.  Regardless there is no real documentation that I am aware of.

Will Ketchum
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Books OToole on July 22, 2010, 06:11:31 PM
To add to my previous post:

   "None of us, are as smart as all of us."

Contrary to popular belief; I am not so arrogant as to think that just because I can't document, doesn't mean that somebody else hasn't.

And that is who I am looking for.

Books


PS - WWE; your Belduque is one of the prettiest knives I have ever seen.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on July 22, 2010, 06:25:48 PM
Boots,

Why thank you sir!

Would that I could take credit for it ... but my idea became much much more than I had envisioned under Josh Dabney's hands.

It is all his work and skill and vision that made it what it is today ...

And than you so much, Josh!
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Josh Dabney on July 22, 2010, 10:56:38 PM
Books,

I've had the pleasure of viewing quite a bit of reference material on knives of the period and I've yet to see any knives , or mention of knives, that were damascus. 

My opinion is that the materials and knowledge were available throughout the entire time period so I would expect that there were damascus knives in the old west, albeit in EXTREMELY limited numbers.

I would imagine that if factory produced knives were created in damascus then there would be written evidence as to that fact so any knives that would have been damascus would've been blacksmith made pieces.

-Josh
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Mogorilla on July 23, 2010, 06:55:30 AM
Just my thoughts, no documentation unfortunately.  My knowledge in blades ends about 1200 years earlier.   The Vikings were proud of their pattern welded blades and in some ways the pattern can be similar to the damascus pattern.  There was discussion a few years ago whether the Vikings swords, as new from the smith would have been polished, with the pattern appearing after use, i.e. blood bringing out the etching.  Since there are a few keenings describing the pattern of the swords, I was in the camp that they were not polished.  But isn't it possible that any damascus bowie would have been sold as polished?  Etching would appear as the blade was used.   Like I said just my thoughts and my sword documentation is either buried in my basement, or landfill after this last round of weird heavy rains.   
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Josh Dabney on July 23, 2010, 11:10:22 AM
Mogorilla,

From my personal experience the only way to HIDE the fact that damascus is damascus is to leave a rough finish on it.   

When polished up and pre-etched-

From across the room it will appear to be a standard steel blade

However-  in hand inspection will reveal the damascus pattern.   

Etching creates the contrast that really makes the pattern stand out in the manner we're accustomed to seeing today.  different alloys of steel will etch at a different rate.  EVERYTHING will effect what the steel looks like when etched.   Level of carbon, alloyed elements, and surface finish prior to etching being the big differences that will effect what damascus looks like when etched.  Again though,  even if polished a close inspection will reveal the weld lines.


-Josh
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on July 23, 2010, 03:13:19 PM
Well this one was made in America and i am honored to tears to have it.Thank You Kid Terico and the maker Dave Cole!!

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/gunclickrick/damascus1014.jpg)
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: jefff on July 26, 2010, 10:53:49 AM
the term damascus has be come a trade name for layerd steel.this has been done to combine the flexablity of wrought iron and the edge holding of high carbon.a good example is how a tomahawk is made.wrought iron when polished and eched looks like damascus steel.since many tools of the time are forge welded out of horseshoes,nails and other scrap i think it is likely that knives like this eixisted and used in the old west.as for documation blacksmiths don'tmake money writing down.jefff
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: GunClick Rick on July 26, 2010, 03:29:40 PM
I bet the guy that made the steel in the knife i showed could enlighten us. As for any future documentation this one is now in the west~ :) May godbless the hands that created it!
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Books OToole on July 27, 2010, 10:22:32 AM
Maybe one of the knife smiths could enlight us regarding:

Could a decent knife be made out of a burst damascus shotgun barrel?


Books.
Title: Re: Damascus
Post by: Josh Dabney on July 27, 2010, 04:10:50 PM
Books,

It's unlikey that an old shotgun barrel would make a good knife.  My best guess would be that barrels would be made from steel that will harden but not into the range that will make a good knife in comparison to high carbon steels like 1075  1080  1084 or 1095.

It would be relying on the carbon content of the steel used to make the barrels that would be the determining factor if it would be a good knife or not.   The fact that it's damascus wouldn't be detrimental to the end product and I wouldn't be surprised if the barrel would make a decent axe or tomohawk head or other tool that didn't require a super keen edge and good wear resistance.

-Josh