Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => SCORRS => Topic started by: Appalachian Ed on May 16, 2009, 09:18:12 AM
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I just picked up this New Model. Delivered Dec 1864. Covered in inspector marks. about 80% Blue, bright bore, mint nipples, full blue in cylinders, probably never issued or fired. Super tight action. 100% case color on hammer. No metal wear just blue wear, probably from handling and playing over the past 145 years. A super nice example.
I though yall might enjoy the pics.
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq288/glasgowcoin/FHG-1141-10.jpg)
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq288/glasgowcoin/FHG-1141-11.jpg)
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I was going to respond but have to clean up the drool first.
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Let us know how it shoots.
RCJ
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Nice pistol!
HH
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Would have replied earlier but I just couldn't stop staring! :D That gun is a keeper if you ask me.
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NICE :) . . . is that the one that was on "Gunrunner" ? I was drooling over it . . . . and my major toy money was all spent for the present . . . >:(
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Not the one on Gunrunner, I did bid on that though. I bought this piece from a local dealer, just across the Tn line.
-Ed
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I looked at one in VERY similar condition today in Granbury Texas. It was priced at $1775.00.
HH
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Was it martially marked and inspected? If so you should snatch it up at that price, if not PM me with a phone number of the outfit that has it!!!
Ed
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That is a stunning piece of hardware.
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WOW Awesome. Is that mark on the left grip (at the bottom) an inspector mark?
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Yes, That is the inspector mark on the left grip.
-Ed
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Ed, . . . GREAT . . . . guns are made to be SHOT. ;D
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Jus' came today...1861 Old Army Remigton(1862 year made) Ok now head me in the direction for "Parts for an original 1861 Old Army Rem please". T handle cylinder pin, Truigger/Bolt Spring, Hand with a handspring(spring retainer broken off)... Pretty good shape for a 147 years old.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/1861%20Remington%20old%20Army/1861Rem14.jpg)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/1861%20Remington%20old%20Army/1861Rem6.jpg)
Left Armi San Paolo 1858 NMA, 1861 Old Army Rem. Uberti 1858 NMW
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/1861%20Remington%20old%20Army/1861Rem8.jpg)
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Smokin' Gun . . . real, real nice . . . . ;D and I like the "antique" on that Armi San Paolo too. :)
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Wolfgang, That APS Rem is pretty old an the cylinder banged up pretty good. Was and Old one when I got it defarbed with U.S. Stamp and Actual 1861 SN# found it number belonged to an1861 Beals .36 Navy. ...I can only take credit somewhat fot cleanin' away the dings and cleanin' it up some adding Perma Blue Paste...works good for the older look.
An thanks that one I named... "Rusty"...
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/1861%20Remington%20old%20Army/1861Rem5.jpg)
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If it looks too good to be true......
The point is, there is quite the market for upscale forgeries of both old Remington and old Colt revolvers. In this instance, the wealth of inspector's marks makes me extra suspicious, as if the primo condition wasn't suspicious enough.
Some of these forgers turn out beautiful work these days that only an expert (and maybe not even then) can tell from the real deal. Always check the provenance of these purported old revolvers..... as there should be some documentation or verifiable history accompanying them as to where exactly they came from. They don't just magically appear :)
For reference re; 'inspector's marks' & lettering, read:
http://www.restoration-gunsmith.com/ltrng.html
And I believe that authentic old Civil War issue Colts and Remingtons in 80%+ new condition fetch upwards of $30,000 or more, so if the price wasn't near that then that's the first clue usually that something is amiss.
Another example of a ripe fake market is 'old' American Indian tomahawks. Virtually 99.9% of purportedly old tomahawks sold on eBay are fakes, and the ones that aren't (and even some that are) are so expensive that it takes an expert to know the difference.
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jc . . . the "To Good To Be True" . . . factor always needs consideration. There was a Remington that looked the same condition as the very nice one at the head of this thread on the "Gunrunner" auction site a little while back. Very, very nice . . . but to me looked just way to good to be true and it went for $ 1,300 & something . . . :-\ Fortunately I'd spent my toy budget on an original '73 and a nice Belgian SxS so I wasn't temped to bid on it anyway. But it was just "too good" . . . :) I express no opinion of the one that started this thread. It is a very nice Remington New Model Army. The reputation of the dealer selling and the other information about a guns history is as important as the physical appearance.
Good shootin', . . . ( Remingtons of course ) . . :)
ps. there was also a 1849 Colt Pocket Revolver in that auction that was way TOO NICE and I recall went for under $ 1000 ? WHAT ? . . :o
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JC - First, you cant lump 80% Colts and Remingtons into the same batch.
Second, Nice Remingtons are VERY available, and a few thousand can buy a peach of a gun.
Nice colts, esp. 80% guns, are LOTS of money and a completely different story. Defarbed Remingtons being passed off as original would only fool the very novice collector. The only canvas for a fake would be a italian import.
Nice wartime examples are very available. There is very little to be gained from faking such an available pistol. The number of inspector marks is normal for a martially inspected gun.
The information you are offering is a bit general. Of course buyer should be cautious, but be educated on the topic before passing advice.
-Ed
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Ed . . . your Remington is nice. And what ya paid for it isn't my business. I see reputable dealers offer Remingtons in that condition for $ 2,000 or so. As you say Colts in such condition are a whole different thing altogether ! $ 1,000 or so buys a Remington that is really beat up. $ 1,500 ones are a bit better. Pretty nice ones can be had for $ 2,000. REALY REALLY FINE ones start to get EXPENSIVE. But nothing like the money that Colts go for in the same conditon. One of the reasons I was suspicious of the one on "Gunrunner" was the Colt up above it that was being bid so low for what it was preported to be.
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JC - First, you cant lump 80% Colts and Remingtons into the same batch.
Second, Nice Remingtons are VERY available, and a few thousand can buy a peach of a gun.
Nice colts, esp. 80% guns, are LOTS of money and a completely different story. Defarbed Remingtons being passed off as original would only fool the very novice collector. The only canvas for a fake would be a italian import.
Nice wartime examples are very available. There is very little to be gained from faking such an available pistol. The number of inspector marks is normal for a martially inspected gun.
The information you are offering is a bit general. Of course buyer should be cautious, but be educated on the topic before passing advice.
-Ed
So .....then you wouldn't have any difficulty showing me another example of a purportedly martially marked 1858 Remington in similar 'like new' condition?
When a good forger can take a $200 Italian replica 1858 and in less than a week have a 'martially marked 1858 Remington in like new condition' (Which only an expert could tell from the real deal) which then sells for $2000, $3000, $4000..... (or more, depending on gullibility of buyer), you're claiming that that's not a decent way to rake in some dough to some people? Come on.
While Civil War Colts may be worth more, actually verifiable Civil War Remingtons in condition such as yours purportedly is in are still worth a pretty penny. Again, it the documentable provenance that makes the difference.
Regardless, believe what you like. My posts are for those who may be inclined to attempt to follow in your footsteps.
Again, if it sounds too good to be true....
(And ditto for tomahawks, and Civil War swords, old bowie knives, and just about any other $$$$ 'collectible' these days.)
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JC - Go to the Nashville Civil War show, a Cowens auction, an NSSA Nationals, etc. I never stated what I paid for this gun. I know Civil War firearms well. I have many original pieces, and I know all about the fakes and put together item. My pistol I posted an image of is 100% correct and period manufactured. Why you need to keep implying it is a fake is beyond me.
Old and new model Remingtons are just not being faked like you want to believe they are. Better Colts are a different story, but the educated can tell 90% of them.
As far as how many inspector marks this gun has, how many do yours have, or do you not own any without Italian proofs?
As far as helping other who may follow in my footsteps, again, I never stated what I paid, or to the extend of my knowledge. I just posted an image of a new purchase, that you chose to tear apart with no background.
So go ahead, bash on me from your anonymous name, no stated location, anonymous email, 7 total posts, BUT tons of experience.
-Ed
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JC - Go to the Nashville Civil War show, a Cowens auction, an NSSA Nationals, etc. I never stated what I paid for this gun. I know civil war firearms well. I have many original pieces, and I know all about the fakes and put together item. My pistol I posted an image of is 100% correct and period manufactured. Why you need to keep implying it is a fake is beyond me.
Old and new model Remingtons are just not being faked like you want to believe they are. Better Colts is a different story, but the educated can tell 90% of them.
As far as how many inspector marks this gun has, how many do yours have, or do you not own any without Italian proofs?
As far as helping other who may follow in my footsteps, again, I never stated what I paid, or to the extend of my knowledge. I just posted an image of a new purchase, that you chose to tear apart with no background.
So go ahead, bash on me from your anonymous name, no stated location, anonymous email, 7 total posts, BUT tons of experience.
-Ed
So...you still can't show me online another example of a purportedly authentic 'martially marked' 1858 in 80%+ condition like yours. Just as I figured. And I can indeed 'tell' what you paid for it....not much (i.e. <$2k) because there you are shooting it, and if it really was what you say it is and you paid big money for it like an authentic Civil War piece with provenance would bring, you probably wouldn't be in such a hurry to dirty your investment up with powder residue.
I've got an old pre-smokeless powder S&W circa late 1800's. It probably saw very little use, and just the fact of it being around for 100+ odd years means that the finish is somewhat worn, the grips look somewhat worn, and the lettering looks somewhat worn. And again, the 'wear' is likely from knocking around in a closet or underwear drawer for 100 years or so....maybe occasionally riding in someone's coat pocket, and not 'use', or firing. All in all, it looks like a pistol that's been well kept for 100+ years. Not almost new like yours does.
Bottom line, I can look at that inspector's cartouche on the grip, the overall condition of the pistol, and pretty much state with 99.9% certainty that that pistol has either been refinished (including new grips or marks redone), or it's a fake. I'm sorry.
Oh, and I don't 'shoot' my old S&W, for the same reason that I don't make my grandma sprint out to the mailbox to get the mail.
(By the way, virtually _everything_ is being faked these days. Particularly when it comes to firearms.)
Anyways, don't believe me...take it in to Antique's Roadshow the next time they're in the area. If you dare.
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Oh, and I'm not trying to '"tear down" or "bash" you....I'm just calling a spade a spade. I can't help it if you think you're holding a diamond.
Hey, if you would have in the first place acknowledged that it 'may' be a fake....(but it sure is a pretty fake if so), I wouldn't have had to post here at all.
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Ok, . . Ok . . difference of opinion are allowed . . . lets keep thing civil.
Very nice Remingtons are available from reputable dealers.
Such as this example
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JC - You are showing your ignorance. Anyone reading this who has experience with better 19th century firearms knows what is available. First of all get over the "internet" and antiques roadshow. Go see some brick and mortor dealers and go to some real civil war shows. Much nicer examples of mine exist. As far as shooting it, I have fired it, that does not mean I shoot it regularly. If you must know I paid 3200.00 for this gun. I also have 2 original 1st model Maynard's purchase by Georgia and Florida in 1860. I paid over 7000.00 each for those carbines, and I have fired both.
You obviously have no experience with civil war guns, don't own any, have not handled any, and sit behind your PC spitting out unexperienced advice.
How many unissued muskets, carbines, and pistols were sold to Bannermans after the war? Thousands and Thousands. Unissued Remingtons, Zouoves, Rogers & Spencers, 2nd Model Maynards, Smiths, and on and on.
You sir and an Idiot and you are showing your a** to the world.
-Ed
-Ed
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Right. The forger's live on people just like you, apparently. Here's some photos of purportedly 'real' 1858's. Notice a difference? These are both rated as 'very good' condition.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=16606
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=1403
Do you see all of the little dings, scuffs, and general handling wear that yours doesn't have? (and are very difficult to accurately forge). Dead giveaway.
Regardless, believe what you like. Fake tomahawks continue to sell on eBay for big bucks, even though the experts on the subject continually attempt to warn buyers that they are indeed fakes. And those buyers don't listen either.
(http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/images/8fe6833df81e224e08ce9be4abfa89a0.jpg)
(http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/images/c239ddf0bc583f755f9e086d533f6f4e.jpg)
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JC - WOW, the only if I can find it on the internet argument. Thats a switch. And when did we start talking about tomahawks?
-Ed
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JC - WOW, the only if I can find it on the internet argument. Thats a switch. And when did we start talking about tomahawks?
-Ed
Yeah, that's right....blame it on the internet (the place where people can readily go to educate themselves and look to see examples of and read experts opinions on what are and aren't fakes).
We're talking 'fakes' and 'forgeries', and tomahawks are an easily observable example of the forgery racket.
Come on, I think you deep down know that's it's not real. It's not that it's not a beautiful gun....it most certainly is. It's just that guns like that just don't really happen all that often, and when they do they're an accident or a fluke, and they've got a paper trail or provenance that is easily verifiable (i.e it's been in a particular family, museum, or collection for the past 140 years).
Heck, I don't even believe one can find government issue WW2 Colt 1911's in that good of shape.
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You are incorrect, you can find mint unissued WW2 1911A1 all the time.
Look at am-firearms.com They have several.
I know 100% this gun is right, I have been collecting original civil war firearms for 20 years, and I have REAL experience with them, nit just internet experience like you have.
Get some real life experience, go to a show, see a reputable dealer, buy a book, attend a national convention and learn something. All you have done is type away with no exeperience at all.
You keep talking about providence, VERY few Civil war firearms have written providence.
You are a fool talking out of your a** with no experience to back up you words.
-Ed
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You are incorrect, you can find mint unissued WW2 1911A1 all the time.
Look at am-firearms.com They have several.
I know 100% this gun is right, I have been collecting original civil war firearms for 20 years, and I have REAL experience with them, nit just internet experience like you have.
Get some real life experience, go to a show, see a reputable dealer, buy a book, attend a national convention and learn something. All you have done is type away with no exeperience at all.
You keep talking about providence, VERY few Civil war firearms have written providence.
You are a fool talking out of your a** with no experience to back up you words.
-Ed
Any individual can go through a collection such as this and look at the detailed photos of numerous genuine 1858's
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/show_inventory.php?catID=3&subcatID=27
And then look at yours and clearly see that it is just 'not right' for its purported age.
These old guns just don't get sealed in hermetic chambers for almost 150 years like yours apparently has been in. It just doesn't happen. Again, I'm sorry.
(By the way, its 'provenance', not "providence". And revolvers in as pristine a shape as yours is purportedly in certainly would have one, as someone had to have been carefully looking after it for all these years.)
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Ok, keep on knowing everything with no experience.
Talk is cheep.
The Remington I posted is VERY available in this nice a condition. YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Wolfgang posted a picture from Joe Salter's inventory that is just as nice as mine on the 2nd page of this tread, that you you seem to need to take over.
You ADMITTEDLY have ZERO hands on experience with Civil War revolvers, don't own any, haven't owned any, haven't read any books about them, and have no clue about what is even available in the antique gun market other than what is listed for sale on the internet.
-Ed
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Here, here's a great example on this old Smith of what your revolver should look like if it was genuine. Notice the color and condition of the bluing, referred to as 'very good original blue'. Look at how up close you can see the corrosion on the finish, which is impossible to prevent over so much time. See the difference? Also notice the wealth of little dings nicks and other common handling marks all over the gun.
That old Smith American looks genuine. There's a correct 'air' about it that is absent in yours. Do you see?
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=29887
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Post a picture of something you own dumb ass.
You are comparing two different manufacturers from 2 different periods.
I didn't know that an 1864 produced Remington should have the same finish as an 1880's produced S&W. Wow, you are a wealth on made up information.
Your internet detective work is wonderful. You should expand your are of made up expertise and rent out your services.
Maybe you could open an online walk in clinic and compare patient symptoms to what you can find with google.
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Ok, keep on knowing everything with no experience.
Talk is cheep.
The Remington I posted is VERY available in this nice a condition. YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Wolfgang posted a picture from Joe Salter's inventory that is just as nice as mine on the 2nd page of this tread, that you you seem to need to take over.
You ADMITTEDLY have ZERO hands on experience with Civil War revolvers, don't own any, haven't owned any, haven't read any books about them, and have no clue about what is even available in the antique gun market other than what is listed for sale on the internet.
-Ed
For the record, I "admitted" no such thing.
Post a picture of something you own dumb ass.
You are comparing two different manufacturers from 2 different periods.
Yes, if anything the Remington finish was of even poorer quality than the Smith finish originally was. And yet there it is in better condition on your gun. Wow, it's a miracle!
Anyways, the Smith American began in 1870. Yours is from the early 1860's....1864 you said. Are you saying that the 1870's is a different time period than the 1860's were? Do you really believe that 10 years apart is a "different period"?
I'm beginning to see why you have that gun now.
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I have a rash on my arm, maybe I will post a photo and you can diagnose it from google earth.
And where do you get the finish is 'Better' on my gun. Mine is clearly thinner than on the smith, and it is flaking under the lever. Which is typical for period Remingtons and Colts.
I can;t take this anymore, you are like reasoning with an Obama supporter.
-Ed
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I have rash on my arm, maybe I will post a photo and you can diagnose it from google earth.
And where do you get the finish is 'Better' on my gun. Mine is clearly thinner than on the smith, and it is flaking under the lever. Which is typical for period Remingtons and Colts.
I can;t take this anymore, you are like reasoning with an Obama supporter.
-Ed
Yes, it is rather difficult "reasoning" with those pesky facts, now isn't it.
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They are not fact sir, they are YOUR opinions.
-Ed
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I have rash on my arm, maybe I will post a photo and you can diagnose it from google earth.
-Ed
Hmmmm. Or maybe you could post a rash photo and we could look up 'skin rashes' and diagnose it from a medical website like rational people would be prone to do, rather than "from google earth"(?).
Hey, here's a thought, maybe you could post some better photos (closeups) of your 1858 and see if posters can spot any inconsistencies (or consistencies). Lets see the lettering and proof marks, for example.
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I am going to leave this alone, you know everything and there is not point in this.
You chose to hijack a thread I started and this is pointless. I hope you have at least been entertained.
-Ed
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I am going to leave this alone, you know everything and there is not point in this.
You chose to hijack a thread I started and this is pointless. I hope you have at least been entertained.
-Ed
Nobody "hijacked' anything. You posted a photo of a revolver that you claim is "original". I posted that while it's a beautiful revolver, there is a big market in fakes these days, and this one looks rather suspicious because its in such primo condition....which is highly unusual for a revolver of this age....suspiciously so, and 'if it looks too good to be true....'.
You then proceeded to repeatedly call me names and denigrate me, without posting one iota of proof or evidence that this revolver is genuine other than "you know", while I posted example after example of why it most likely isn't an actual civil war issue arm.
Now, when I ask for closeups of the lettering and proof marks on the gun so we can attempt to match it to known examples and possibly determine once and for all whether its genuine or not, you take your bat and ball and run home.
Apparently I'm not the one that has been doing the "entertaining" here.
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I have nothing to prove to you. I let you drag me way too far into this argument with you. You have won by getting me upset with your flawed information.
The mistake I have made is letting you get under my skin.
Say what you want, I know these guns very well, and mine is textbook. You can disagree, and that is fine.
I am done, respond if you want, I do not care.
My apologies to all the Pards out there who have had to read all this.
And I am sure you will respond with something about me not posting more images. I never started this post to get into this, it was a simple look at my new gun post, that you turned into a yea, but it is fake argument, that is pointless with you.
-Ed
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By the way, I'm restoring a Tingle Pistol right now. It's an Italian (ASM) reproduction circa mid 1980's, but I have no doubt that with hardly any effort at all I could make it look like an original Tingle and put it up for sale to a 'collector' who would be none the wiser...and pay the big bucks.
I was going to cut the barrel down to 6" or so and reinstall the front sight, but it balances so well I think I'll (after cleaning all of the rust off) leave it alone and just give the frame and barrel a genuine charcoal blue, an oil finish on the walnut grip, and polish the brass up and then let it age naturally.
(Now that's 'hijacking' your thread :) )
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Please consult the SCORRS Forum Rules as posted by SCORRS moderator Bull Schmitt.
Have a nice day. ;D
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Thanks Ridgeway!
This has gotten out of hand! An further discussions will have to be taken off of this forum and handled one on one directly between the two parties.
This thread is locked!