Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Surly Bob on June 28, 2008, 06:34:10 PM
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Ok Darksider Pards...here's my problem....I just know you can help!
I've been shootin' the "lazy man's" 12 gauge load. About 54 grains of FFF with a red wad and 7/8 oz of shot.
I had a stage last weekend that involved two knockdowns with chains for resetting the targets.
I hit them SIX, count 'em, SIX times with my good 'ol eighty-seven and they just wobbled to and fro but didn't go down.
Well, it cost me some precious moments, I'm here to tall ya!
Now, it may not be entirely the load's fault...the chains were long, hung up a little on a stick, etc...
But I can't help but think that if my loads were a little less wimpy, they would have gone down.
What say yall?
How can I fix this problem...new load? What could that be? I have to use regular length AA hulls for the gun is tuned to shoot those only. I'd like to avoid a roll crimp if possible so I can use my Mec Grabber.
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I'll take emails off line if this is too touchy....
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Howdy Bob, your load sounds fine to me, might need to add a little shot. Have you ever patterned your shotgun with this load?? Some loads blow a hole in the middle of the pattern like a dougnut, more shot is one way to fix this. I have a light 7/8oz load for Heather, 47gr ffg with Federal 12SO wad that has handled any KD or clay popper so far. My 1 1/8oz load is 57gr ffg with Rem SP wad with great results. I like using plastic wads, they're quick, easy to load, throw a great pattern. Of course I haven't shot any with chains for a reset rope either. I know I shoot less than a square load but it works for me. Hang up an old sheet or a piece of butcher paper to see how your load patterns, it could just be the KD. Hope this helps.
Jefro, Relax-Enjoy
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pattern your loads, did you get your 87 with choke tubes? or just barrel .. Mine does not have screw in chokes and had to play a round with the load for them.
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Bob,
I shoot the following load and it takes down knock downs, with and without reset chains attached, standing pipes and hits flying birds (when I do my part). It's a little stiff but has yet to fail me.
Loaded in Remington STS green hulls
4.3 cc of GOEX FFg powder (approx 59.5 grains)
Winchester AA Red wad
1-1/8 oz of 7-1/2 or 8 shot
Winchester W209 primer
Not as efficient as your load but it works great for me.
HHW
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If you are shooting real BP your load sounds way light for the Winchester red wad. Are you getting any compression on the powder? What kind of loader to you have? With a MEC you should be seeing at least 20 pounds of wad seating pressure. With a red wad and only 7/8 oz of shot over 54 grains of real BP you should have some room left over. This will make a pretty weak load with real BP. Bump the shot up to around 1 1/8 oz. Recoil will still be light and it should fill up the case. Or use your existing load and try the Winchester or Claybusters orange wad.
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If you have tight chokes there usually is no problem. I have had trouble with KDs from cyl/cyl cut barrels.. I can think of 4 solutions:
1) Either borrow or buy a 2nd shotgun with chokes and that'll do the job.
2) Install choke tubes.
3) Add more powder and shot by cutting the "legs" out of the red wad (so you have only OP wad and shot cup) to make more room for a special KD load.
4) Gimme your address and I'll send you a few steel shot cups so you can put 75-80grs powder and 1 1/8oz shot in your cases. The steel shot cup will give you modified choke equivalent patterns from a cyl bore. I'll even slit them for you.
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Howdy SB,
As the others have noted, more shot will add more "ooomph" to yer loads, so will a stouter built shot cup. Adding more powder seems to be less helpful and even worse in some cases. But you will need to xperiment with YOUR gun to find what werks best. And patterning it is always a good place to start finding out wat's really going on out there in front of the business end of yer scattergunz!
For more on shot gun loading with BP take a look here: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9733.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9733.0.html)
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Bob I use a load similar to yours, 58 grs. of Skirmish 1 fg. with a Winchester white wad ,which is not white but translucent,and 7/8 of 7 1/2 or 8. If the nutt behind the butt does my part ,aint a knock down that wont go DOWN. Adios Sgt. Jake
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I use equal volume of shot and powder, 1oz of each measured in a shotgun dipper. That works out to 70gr.volume in a BP measure. I use 2ff. I also use a 1/8 hard card over the powder followed by a 1/2" fiber wad with the shot over that. Never had any problem knocking stuff over or hitting clay birds, and the recoil isn't bad. I've used this combo for years shooting skeet and sporting clays.
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I use the Magtech brass 12 ga cases and started with a load a bit hotter than Roosterman's. Had a fair bit of recoil and had some trouble hitting targets. I think I was blowing holes in the pattern. Inadvertantly I backed the powder charge down to the same level as Roosterman's. Tamed the recoil and at one match there were 35 shotgun targets and I used 35 shells. Can't get much better than that. ;D I'm thinking I might back the powder charge down a little more to see what happens.
Ransom Gaer
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I'm thinking I might back the powder charge down a little more to see what happens.
I think I'd leave well enough alone. Sounds like you have an excellent load.
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Ho Hellgate........ :o
Whats in yer steel shot cups, ??? `n` how do ya make em ::)
Paladin (What wants ta try steel shot cups ;D ) UK
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Paladin,
I've bought three different wads from Ballistics Products:
1) LBC-50 which needs to be trimmed from 50mm to 30mm with tin snips and slit twice along the walls of the cup with a box knife.
2) CSD 118 which also needs trimming & slitting twice
3) BP12 Tuff Steel wad that needs trimming & slitting twice and the addition of a thin over powder plastic gas seal wad (I'd cut off and use the bottom of a Red Wad)
All these wads will hold 1 1/8oz shot over 70-80 grains volume BP in a AA hull with a folded crimp (or with a smidge less powder or shot you can use any of the Remington compression formed hulls). It is a little time consuming and hard on the hands doing the trimming & slitting but I wear gloves and watch a movie on TV while preparing them with a cutting board on my lap. Patterns are similar for all of them. The best is the LBC-50. It has the most room left over and has the thickest walls. They used to make a LBC-30 that needed no trimming but it was discontinued. The wads are designed to hold 1 1/8 oz of steel shot and are too long for lead and need about 1/2" cut off their length. No need to be precise. The thickness of the shot cup walls can make for a tight fit when the loader is inserting them. I sometimes use an inverted 45LC brass to use as a pusher and move it over to the priming station to do the pushing on my MEC 600jr to fully seat the wad.
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It's the shot whut does the work. Just got back from "Hang Um High" and found that my lil 20ga took down the KDs just as well as any 12 ga there. My secret, know your pattern. I worked up my loads using a patterning board and I know what they can do.
First, I use enough powder to get to 1200 fps, no more. I load 15/16 oz of shot. All else in my loads is made up to hurl that payload in an organized way so that I get a good even pattern. Now, my gun may very well shoot a tighter pattern than most, but that cuts both ways. A hall sweeper will get a "golden bb" on steel every time. My loads are made to take down KDs.
So, pattern your gun and know where it hits compared to where you point it. Put your pattern on the steel and it will do your work.
DD-DLoS
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Thanks Pards!
I'll start by patterning the gun. Nope, I don't have chokes.
Perhaps my problem is the loader....I can't seem to stuff enough powder and shot in the hull with these wads.
Not sure if I have the loader adjusted right to seat the wad. I also heard somewhere that the new AA wads are now a 2 piece design. Would that be messing me up?
Thanks and much obliged!
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The Remington Power Piston for 1 1/4 oz loads is only slit half way down the sides. I found it gave Improved Cylinder patterns in my cyl/cyl Stevens 311. You can always cut the "legs" out of your AA wads to get more powder & shot. I've seen guns have bloopers where the shot wasn't going hardly 100fps but delivered in a tight pattern and took big old poppers right down (albeit not a slam down but they fell over).
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If you are shooting a cylinder bored gun, patterning is essential. Choke bore guns are very forgiving. I'd ditch the plastic wads, but that's just me. I use them for smokeless loads, but go with traditional cards and wads for BP. If your pattern is light in the middle, go with more shot and less powder. You also might fiddle with your shot size, larger shot pattern better than smaller shot.
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The object is to get an even distribution of shot over the entire pattern. One thing I've found that makes most loads pattern more evenly is shot buffer. A 44 Magnum shell full of buffer seems to be just right. I use my old case shaker to vibrate the buffer down into the shot before I crimp.
Ballistic Products has a very good shot buffer and it isn't expensive. Don't use buffers that will cake because they will raise pressures very quickly. Use buffer made for reloading.
DD-DLoS
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One more thought, 2ff is easier on patterns than 3fff in my experience. I've never tried 1f, but it may help too.
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Bob,
Your biggest problem is almost certainly mass on target. As others have pointed out you need to pattern your shotgun at those ranges and see what your pattern looks like. You really don't want a big open pattern, merely a 6 to 9 inch mass of pellets. Adding more pellets will be more beneficial than adding powder. Velocity doesn’t transfer a moment, mass at a velocity does. So it is extremely important you don’t blow a hole in your pattern and you need to keep the mass central.
Let’s look at your load; Double AAs with a red wad over 3.4cc (54.2gr FFFg)and 7/8oz of shot will barely (actually it doesn’t) give you a decent crimp. This is if you limit your wad seating pressure
to 30 lbs. (more pressure than 30lbs compresses your wad too much to get a good crimp with 7/8oz loads) I know because I have used that load for my daughter. It works better with FFg because you get to use 3.7ccs of FFg (or 54.4gr.) When you fill the shot cup and crimp you will almost always have a hole in the middle which is one sign of an under compressed load. I used this load for her because it doesn’t develop pressure well and because of that will have relatively low velocities. You on the other hand probably don’t want more velocity, but you want a better pressure build up and a better crimp over all.
One simple solution is to seat your wad to 35 lbs over a minimum of 3.7 ccs of FFg or Fg (note that 3.7 cc of FFg is 54.4gr and Fg is 51.5gr. ) Then throw 1 oz. of shot and you should get a good crimp. The additional mass and compression to the powder, the column and the crimp will help the load develop a bit more pressure before the leaves the hull. You will probably get approximately the same velocity with an 1/8th ounce more shot. Your column should be dense and not strung out which promotes a tighter pattern if your choke is more open or non-existent.
A second probably better solution would be to use 4.0 or 4.3 ccs of Fg powder, 40 lbs of wad pressure and 1 oz. of Shot. What you are doing here is actually filling space and packing your black powder. If you want low velocities and low recoil, think coarser, bulkier powder and tight crimps.
I currently shoot either an STS or AA Hull, Red Wad at 40 lbs., 4.3cc of FFg with 1 oz. of shot and get very dense patterns out of my ’78 double. At CAS ranges I can get 100% of the mass on target if I do my job and center the pattern. Knock downs slam back and rockers swing as if hit by a prize fighter.
I am planning on getting a half case of Fg just for shotgun and using 4.3 oz. with the above mentioned combinations. I was given a partial can to try and I like the fact I will actually be using less powder by weight which means more reloads per pound and I get more fire and streaming smoke (still burning powder bits) heading towards the target. I don’t plan on chronographing, but expect it is a slightly lower velocity, but it showed no detriment to my pattern. Lower velocities normally generate a tighter pattern with correctly built columns, BUT the pressure needs to build with a fast ramp rate under a tight column. A poorly compressed load gives you low velocity, but it is a ragged column with an erratic pressure curve. There will be holes and odd shaped patterns with poorly compressed loads. With the test loads in Fg I saw no increase in plastic residue, but there may have been more residue in the chamber and throat area to be cleaned during the match. I use a chamber brush every third stage. Unlike some I haven’t had a problem cleaning barrels after using plastic wads. I soak them with moose milk or hot soapy water and use a 12 gage Jag with a patch; it pushes out like a snake skin. Three different shotguns, same results. I am persnickety about the cleanliness of my weapons and I can guarantee you there isn’t any residue after I clean.
So take it for what it is worth, but I recommend a tad more shot and a smidgen more (but coarser) powder. I don’t think you’ll notice much more recoil but you will have some steel stomping loads. If you are worried about recoil add the shot and go with an equivalent volume of a coarser powder (to what you are using now). Your goal is to try and get at least 40 lbs. of wad pressure but watch those crimps. If you stay on the ragged edge of minimum powder and minimum shot you need to monitor your crimps.
Mako’s axiom is “Tight compressed loads make Black Powder happy…”
Pack 'em tight, crimp them hard,
Mako
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My loads seem to work pretty good for me in my unchoked TTN 78.
I use AA hulls, 70gr 1F skirmish, AA red wad (with as much wad pressure as I can get) and 1oz #8 shot. It crimps nicely, and takes down knockdowns with ease.
Cleanup is as easy as a squirt of moosemilk, then a quick pass with a tornado brush. Then a quick oily boresnake and I'm done.
I recently was working up a load for my wifes 20, and ended up cutting the shot cup out of the wads, and using a nitro card and felt wad over 48 gr. 1F powder. Then the shot cup and 7/8 oz #8 shot and the star crimp. Seems to work good, and doesnt leave near as much plastic. Am gonna try it with 12s after Hell on Wheels and see what happens.
DM
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Hey Dalton, that should be a good 12ga 7/8 load. For Heather I've been loading 45-47gr ffg with Federal 12SO wads and STS hulls. They do the job, KDs or poppers. I just loaded a batch of 7/8 46gr ffg with BPI HELIX CUSHION DRIVER 24 wads. They match better than the Feds, gonna give them a try in the morning. For my 1 1/8 load BPI has another wad I'm gonna try in place of the Remington SP12 I've been using, it's about 1/8" shorter OAL and should be perfect for 55 to 58gr ffg. It's the HELIX CUSHION DRIVER18 wad. I haven't had any problem with clean up either, squirt the pipes down with Murphys mix and push a piece of paper towel through. Finish up with Balistol and the bore snake. Good luck at Hell on Wheels.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/
Jefro, Relax-Enjoy
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Well happy to report that the 20s worked well at HOW for day one. There were a few edgers that took an extra round, but...
My 12 loads happily flattened all k/ds with ease. Hope it happens tomorrow too. DM