Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => RATS => Topic started by: jimmyb.1 on May 27, 2008, 10:29:34 PM
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I know there are lots of cowboy pistols out there but they all seem to need to be slicked up. I bought two new model blackhawks .38/.357 and the only mod I did to them was to release one side of the the trigger spring and the gun functions excellent. Now, I have adjustable sights so I can shoot modern but the vaquero's are fixed. I just don't get it - why subject yourself to all the hassels of some of the other guns? I'm looking at this from a very objective viewpoint b/c I'm not a Ruger nut, never really have been except for my 10/22's. Just an honest question.
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Howdy. Jimmy:
Here's my ponderings on it....Some folks don't like Ruger because:
(1) They ain't Colts
(2) They don't look exactly like Colts
(3) They don't feel like Colts
(4) They weren't around in the 1800's
(5) They [may] cost more than Colt copies
Reckon I never cared much about those others.
I mainly like the fact that they are built in the USA & last a long time.
The "authenticity" is down my list quite a ways.
Mustang Gregg
(NOW, more than ever, we buy USA-built products)
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Sounds like a question that would be asked on the SASS website. I would imagine everyone here will be much more calm in their responses though.
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Don:
You are surely correct in that assumption about the SASS Wire. ;D You'd get a lotta HEAT over there.
Maybe one of us oughta pose this question over there. ;D
MG
PS: I don't wanna sound ALL-RUGER puffed-up here.
Heck, I like Schofields too. But just the ones built by S&W. ::)
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In my hands they just don't feel right. Neither do Remingtons. Colts and most clones do in 5 1/2" and 7 1'2" lengths. S&W Americans and first model Russians do if they have 8" barrels. Shorter ones don't.
8" 1860 Army Colts and clones feel best.
In my hands.
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Hey, I like Rugers :) and I like Colts :o and I like a lot of the clones :o . The nice thing is I can shoot them all. I would hate to choose, but if I had to the Rugers would be at the top of the list. ;D ;D ;D
Deadeye Dick
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I like the 19th century guns and their clones for their historical feel and authenticity. For some people that's all-important and a Ruger sure messes up the authenticity of a costume you may have paid hundreds of dollars for. The older guns sure are fun. But for a practical carry gun, especially in the back country, give me a Ruger. Even if you buy it new, it's usually less than a third the price of a new Colt, and it will last for decades of hard use without needing repair. In Blackhawk configuration it has sights that are easy on my aging eyes. Maybe best of all, you can buy a 20-year-old Ruger at a hockshop cheap and maybe it's dinged up from riding for years on the floor under the seat of a pickup, but inside it's probably as good as the day it came from the factory. You can always put a new finish on it.
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I like the old model (black powder) frame.
BP
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I understand where the purists are coming from on the authenticity issue. I am foremost a living historian and my NMVs just don't cut it for a authentic re-recreation of a SAA. That's why I now have my USV Artillery model from Cimarron. I will probably always shoot my NMVs for competition, but if I'm doing a display (or a film), I need something more historically correct.
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I do primarily western reenactment and this subject comes up a lot. Since we abuse our guns (falls, scratches, etc.) a lot of us like the reliability of a Ruger over a Uberti-type clone. I mean, no one wants a broken spring right before a gunfight, especially if you are scripted as the winner! If a primer backs out (does happen occasionally), my Ruger will cycle through pretty easily whereas the other clones tend to lock tight.
But, they aren't historically accurate mechanism-wise. So, the debate gets heated. We are supposed to represent the Old West as accurately as possible. Most of us study photos and go so far as to have things like buttons down to right time period.
Although no judges will take off for using a Ruger, the issue arises with the public's experience. How we represent...
But I will always use my Ruger. Never fails me. 8)
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My Dad's got a Cimerron open top 1872 in .38. He's a couple states away and I can't wait to get out there and try it. It just looks right.
On the other hand, I love my OMV like a brother. It's in my last wishes to be burried with it. The only problem I ever had with it wasn't its fault. Fired off a sqib and locked the cylinder up. It took the abuse of me freeing things up and kept on going. It's just the perfect single action pistol. Ruger's still one of those companies that shows American pride in everything they do.
Leo
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Why not use Rugers? Easy....they got no S-O-U-L....... :P
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Why not use Rugers? Easy....they got no S-O-U-L....... :P
I don't need soul in a firearm I need and get Accurucy from my Rugers if I wanted s-o-u-l I'd eat collared greens and fatback!
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You don't need a Ruger to hit a target 25 feet away. I'm amazed at how close the pistol targets are in this sport.
if I wanted s-o-u-l I'd eat collared greens and fatback!
I still don't think you'd get it. ;)
BP
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You don't need a Ruger to hit a target 25 feet away. I'm amazed at how close the pistol targets are in this sport.
BP
I'd love ta have an original four clicker with a hammer spur firing pin.
I haven't shot a CAS match, and I don't think I ever tried anything as close as 25 feet--yards would be more like it ;) If it's really set up like that, I'd prolly be inclined to carry an OT clone to match the outfit--but as a gun I'd trust for anything in the real world, it's gotta be the Ruger ;)
Leo
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You don't need a Ruger to hit a target 25 feet away. I'm amazed at how close the pistol targets are in this sport.
I still don't think you'd get it. ;)
BP
No I don't! I could do that with a slingshot! Now wheither I could put four shots out of five through the same ragged hole with the slingshot ia another matter altogether.
Hey I don't need nor do I want S-O-U-L I have too much gumshuin to need thet!
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I'd love ta have an original four clicker with a hammer spur firing pin.
I haven't shot a CAS match, and I don't think I ever tried anything as close as 25 feet--yards would be more like it ;) If it's really set up like that, I'd prolly be inclined to carry an OT clone to match the outfit--but as a gun I'd trust for anything in the real world, it's gotta be the Ruger ;)
Leo
I'll second that particulary the part in bold print!
Just to set the record stright; I usually put five shots out of six in the critical mass area of a target @ 25 yds; I just don't put them through the same ragged hole.
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My first single action was a Ruger. And my second. And the third. And fourth. And... For CAS, however, I shoot more accurately with Remingtons because they fit my hand better. They're historically accurate, too. I wish Ruger would make a good Remington replica so I could have the best of all worlds. I'd buy the first one. I know, there's the Ruger Old Army but it's not the same. I guess feel is what it's all about. No arguments about quality or value. I'd expect if you tied a rope through the trigger guard and dragged one behind a tractor for an afternoon, it would still shoot when you picked it up and cleaned the grit out of it.
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Maybe I've got horrible depth perception, but the pistol targets at the matches I've been to and seen in clips here sure look like they're that close. I'm sure the distance is specified in the rules which I haven't bothered to check; before my re-enacting interest moved west after the Civil War, I was target shooting my 60 Army at a bp only range. Two distances were offered: 25 and 50 yards. I haven't seen a match portrayed where the pistol targets appear to be 25 yards.
Maybe it's all practical, facilitates competiition, etc. The folks are great, the smell and smoke is good. Lots of Rugers, some have been lovingly cared for with fancy grips and one guy's got a matched pair that are engraved. I don't care if they're Rugers or not; they're gorgeous.
The only firearms I own are as historic as I can find that I can afford. If I needed one for something more for the purpose to which it was originally designed and wanted a single action for the job, I'm sure I'd own a Ruger.
BP
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Well B.P. perhaps you should have checked the rules> It is legal according to SASS rules for revolver targets to be anywhere from 7 to 10 yds. Last time I checked 7yds =21 ft. and 10 yds = 30 ft.
As I said in my original post I put 4 out of 5 projectiles in one ragged hole @ 25 ft. which I and others consider better than fair @ revolver distances. I freely admit that the distance is nowhere near 25 yds.= 75ft but not too many gunfights took place @ 75 ft. The majority took place at much shorter distances.
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Why should I check the rules? I believe the club does that just fine; I am confident they know and follow the rules to the letter. It's not my place to question them or even suggest "Gee, can't we move 'em a little further away to make things more interestin'?" They're a great group and I'm new, happy to play however it's been set up and help with the clean up too even. Thanks for the math and conversion rates, btw. I operate the general store and am learned in numbers, but it can be tricky for some. Sure is a relief that my depth perception isn't horrible after all. The pistol targets are close! I suppose I'd rather haul a target into the shed from 25 feet as opposed to 25 yards at the end of a day. They're heavy!
Seems consesus is that for historical authenticity, it's not a Ruger, but for reliability and accuracy, it should be.
BP
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Hey,
At least you participte in the sport BP. As I said, I never even shot at a match. I don't have a guy standing next to me with a stopwatch or have a fast paced scenario to work through. It's just me and some casualy placed water jugs and all the time in the world. If I miss with the pistol more than once I pick up the Mariln, which isn't even CAS legal bein a .30.30, and send it to it's great reward that way. The wife calls it cheating, but I'm satisfied when I see that thing fly off the ground ;D
When I finaly do shoot an official match, I'll have my Ruger, but only because it's become so special to me and I know it won't fail ;)
Leo
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Why should I check the rules? I believe the club does that just fine; I am confident they know and follow the rules to the letter. It's not my place to question them or even suggest "Gee, can't we move 'em a little further away to make things more interestin'?" They're a great group and I'm new, happy to play however it's been set up and help with the clean up too even. Thanks for the math and conversion rates, btw. I operate the general store and am learned in numbers, but it can be tricky for some. Sure is a relief that my depth perception isn't horrible after all. The pistol targets are close! I suppose I'd rather haul a target into the shed from 25 feet as opposed to 25 yards at the end of a day. They're heavy!
Seems consesus is that for historical authenticity, it's not a Ruger, but for reliability and accuracy, it should be.
BP
That's like asking "Why should I learn to count, to spell, to read? " You read the rules so that you don't get involved in something blinded and hope others will lead you or show you the way Like Davy Crockett used to say "Be sure you're right, then go ahead!"
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That's like asking "Why should I learn to count, to spell, to read? "
Cyrille, that's even more condescending than showing me the conversion factors of feet to yards. I look up to people assuming they're smarter than I, as opposed to looking down at them assuming they're not.
The rules pertaining to how to stage a match and what the required distances are don't concern me at this point in my participation at all. What I thought I was making clear for all but apparently the most argumentative and high fallutin' was that the club I attend has complied with all that stuff, of this I have no doubt. My focus is safety, following the RO's instructions, having fun and being respectful of those that have been at this longer than me from whom I can learn. I expect to someday give back in kind. I don't give a darn whether the targets are 21 feet, 30 feet, stated in feet, yards or meters. I've been in reading and research mode for years and have read enough to satisfy myself that I knew exactly what I was getting involved in, eyes wide open, before I spent a nickel on anything.
The degree to which anybody feels so compelled is entirely their choice before reaching the point at which they decide to go ahead. Read, listen, filter out the noise and what isn't of interest, then "you pays your money, and you takes your choice."
The topic was why doesn't everyone use Rugers. Given the relatively short distances that appear to me to be common, my view is that the accuracy benefits of the Ruger should not be the compelling reasons to buy one if one's motivation is historical authenticity. I'm in this camp; obviously there's plenty of room for others with differing interests and financial abilities for getting involved.
BP
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You're right of course, at the distances stated accuracy(or hitting that large of a target) should be a moot question. If one cannot hit a 16X16" target @ 21-30 ft. then perhaps one shouldn't be in the "game". But this is suppose to be fun, albeit structered fun, thus the need for rules and one has to be aware of the rules and not just aware that there are rules.
My personal practice targets, at those distances are usuallly 8X 11" computer printouts, 8" "bullseye" targets or 9" paper plates.
However if you want to go the authenticy route, by all means go that route and get yourself a Colt, or Colt Clone, there's nothing wrong with that. But I'll stick with my Rugers thank you.
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That is enough. PM sent. >:(
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I have had three sets of Rugers for cowboy action shooting. I started with a pair of 44Mags, one NMSBH (still have it) and a Vaquero. I then bought a pair of convertible 45 BHs, which I love and still have. My current guns are a pair of New vaqueros in 45. I have big hands and it is funny, but I find the smaller frame of the New Vaqs suits my hand better, I can cycle faster and don't slip the hammer as much. Go figure.
I want to start classic cowboy and also want to have one calibre on the line and shoot BP. I don't fancy the 45 in a rifle with BP, so I have bought a pair of Pietta 4 clicker Clones in 44/40 to go with an 1873 rifle in 44/40. My old 1866 44/40 will be a back up rifle. They have all been slicked up and the Piettas are as slick as frog snot on a round doorknob.
If Rugers were available in 44/40 I would have gone that way.
I love my Rugers, but I really love these clones.
I am going to sell one of the convertibles and the two new model vaqs and buy myself a Colt in 45.
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Our local gunshop has a set of Rugers in 44-40 with a brace. You'd have ta come ta California and take a test ta get em. Then ya wait ten days ta take delivery.
Come on out :D I gotta comfy couch an my wife's a great cook.
Leo
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Sounds good, we have a Shooters Party in my state's senate. We have managed to get two senators elected ans it looks like we are finally getting a bit of sense out of it all. Once you have a gun in a certain category, eg rimfire rifle, you will not have to wait 28 days to get a permit to buy another one and they are about to up the ante on combat competition so they can buy up to 41 cal, which ain't exactly 45, but heaps better than a 38 cal limit.
Got the Piettas now and surprisingly the Colt size frame seems to suit me, which is surprising seeing I have such big hands.
Thanks for the offer, Mick.
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No problem Mick.
I have an aunt that lives in NSW. I been itchin ta go make a visit fer years. Gettin them pistols on the plane would be the toughest part with regulations an all, but it sure would be fun.
Leo
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I just don't get it - why subject yourself to all the hassels of some of the other guns? I'm looking at this from a very objective viewpoint b/c I'm not a Ruger nut, never really have been except for my 10/22's. Just an honest question.
OK Jimmyb, here's my objective answer for you. Some of us, like myself, are drawn to CAS to get a feel and appreciation for what it was like back then. Given, I'm not big into costuming per see, but I like the gear to be as representative as possible as to what was used back then. Breakdowns, weaknesses and all. I'm in the minority, but that's why I'm the guy that waits for Richards Type II in .44 Colt instead of shooting .45 or (like people who are looking for each competitive edge in reliability, accuracy, speed, convenience, etc) .38 spl because of it's lower recoil and faster follow-up times.
I'm showing up to shoot BP, with as close to what they were shooting in 1873+, and I lean towards NCOWS camp outs ideals instead of driving in to the shoot freshly showered and rested in my '08 Tacoma ;). I'm not hating, just what I like. Just the same as why I shoot an OEM Springfield 1911 in IDPA. I don't like shooting IPSC, USPSA, etc. Those space guns aren't representative of what anyone rational is carrying concealed.
Rugers are mechanically superior to SAAs and their clones. But no one was carrying coil sprung shooters back then, let alone Rugers. That's why guys like me don't use Rugers. I'm not showing up on weekends to win, I'm showing up to have fun, hang with good people, and pretend it's back then. Back then means no coil springs ;)
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Give us a yell if yer coming! I'll give the 44/40s at your local gunshop a miss and kick on with the clones for awhile.
The 38 calibre limit doesn't apply for cowboy shooting and silouette in this state (mind you, you have to get a special permit for the bigger calibre stuff). They are going to up the ante to 41 cal without a special permit. If I'd know that was coming I might have converted to 38/40s.
The 38 Supers are real popular, if the law changes, there will be a lot of 38 Supers for sale. I think I needs me one of those Army Green GeeLocks in 40S&W to play with.
Mick.
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TF, that pretty much says it for me and the historical motivation. But there's just one thing...
...NCOWS camp outs ideals instead of driving in to the shoot freshly showered...
I read that Charlie Utter insisted on bathing daily. Is an article in Wikipedia sufficient documentation to petition the governors to recognize that bathing daily, though unusual, is historically documented? If so, do us all afavor, TF... ;) ;D
4FoD, sounds like you're restricted in ways that I pretty much assume are OK where I live. :-[ Seems odd...
BP
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BP,
I'm pretty easy on the senses :) My wife says I'm the only man she's ever known that doesn't have B.O. So all you're going to get is a waft of these fresh smokey camp fire goodness, just like my son's scout troop does!
Wow! 4FoD, those limitations make my head spin! What state is that?
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If Ruger made a 1875 Remington clone...i'd shoot it. Otherwise, they don't have anything that intestests me. '51, '58, '60, 75...
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I may be mistaken, however I believe Ruger makes Rugers, not clones of other manufacters products although IMHO They came mighty close with the NV, which, by the bye I refuse to buy!