Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Pappy Hayes on April 26, 2008, 08:15:18 AM
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Any pards have suggestions on what a greenhorn to reloading should start out with? I have read and heard from others Dillion presses are about the best. But I do not want to start out with that kind of expense. Thank you ahead of time for your comments.
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I second the request!
PH, I'm in the same boat. Impression I have so far is that single stage is the way to learn what reloading's all about. And of course include reloading book(s) in your budget!
With this perspective, I was thinking kit was the way to go. I was eyeing the Lee 50th Anniversary, then figured $10 more for their Breech Lock Challenger Press Kit which I've seen on-line for less than $100. Have to buy the dies separately, and Lee seems to be highly regarded. Lastly, I think that carbide is recommended for pistol dies. And Lee offers a book. So for one-stop get up and go, that's the direction I'm headed, but hope others chime in with their opinions/experiences.
I know they will...
BP
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I am just starting out also. I was planning on a Dillon but bought a used RCBS and Hornady/Pacific along with several other items (in an earlier post) instead. The Hornady and RCBS are very similar and appear to be well built and others have been telling me they just don't wear out, I guess I will find out.
Find as many manuals as you can, from what I have seen they all have similar information but one may go into greater detail on a particular subject as opposed to another or may explain something better than the others. The load recipes vary some also.
There is some good free info on the net such as http://www.reloadbench.com/menu2.html (http://www.reloadbench.com/menu2.html) and http://www.reloadammo.com/ (http://www.reloadammo.com/) plus several others including the bullet and powder manufacturers. (Remember use caution with what you find on private pages)
If you do a Google search for "building a reloading bench" you can find several good ideas for your bench.
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I just started Reloading last year. I use the following equipment to load .38 Special cartridges :
Lee Classic Turret Press with 2-turrets
Lee Carbide Pistol dies with 2-sets of dies
Lee Powder measure
RCBS Rangemaster 750 Electronic scale
RCBS Hand priming tool
With the above setup I've been able monitor each operation and learn the basics of reloading. I estimate that I can reload approx. 100 cartridges per hour overall. At this point I'm concerned about quality and safety rather than speed. Some day I may get a Hornady Lock n Load Progressive press or a Dillon 650 Progressive press.
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all are good for starting on, to see if you really enjoy reloading. check ebay, you will find good deals, if you wait and watch on all the equipment you need. :)
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If you are just starting out the Lee Anniversary kit single stage is hard to beat, price-wise. It may seem slow but it will be easier to monitor each step of the reloading process and then when it's time to move up to a more sophisticated set-up you can still incorporate the Lee components, - maybe saving and using the single stage press just for de-capping or the like.
Depending on the caliber you're reloading, the advantage of using dies like Dillon offers is that they are a two-part die, you can have the body screwed in to your press yet pull the cotter pin holding the interior sleeve and drop it out of the die body to clean and clear residue buildup of lead shavings and lube, then reinsert it.
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I agree with getting into reloading as cheaply as possible. Start simple and work up when you have the cash to throw down.
I used Lee single-stage presses for years before getting my Dillon. They work great and for a while, I had three of them set up at the same time so I simply moved from press to press rather than re-do the dies.
The Hornady Lock-n-Load system is great because you set the dies once and simply lift them out to switch back and forth between them. New MSRP $141 for just the press or $349 for the kit with everything you need to start reloading. You may be able to pick up one of those presses on ebay if you look.
Hornady Lock-n-Load Classic (https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=4335be818b24a3684f562a5fd093a4bc&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=e04de17793339f7a7c12a3124e64c1e5)
You can save a chunk of change by getting the Dillon 550B when the time comes to upgrade. There is more stuff available for those and the heads and other doo-dads are way cheaper to pick up. Sure, you have to advance it manually and it only holds 4 dies instead of 5 but they are the simplest design. I can knock out 4-6 boxes an hour with mine. I have done as much as 8 boxes in an hour, but that's pushing it and I like to take my time to insure everything is right while I go.
Oh, yeah, I use Lee carbide 3-die sets and pick up the factory crimp die for crimping. I use the seat/crimp die out of the set just to seat the bullet.
OK, I hope that helps with your decisions.
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I'm gonna chime in with Johnny McCrea for the Lee Classic Turret. I knew nothing about reloading and wanted to make sure I understood every step. The Lee Classic Turret can be used as a single stage or with turret engaged, and is very easy operate, plus it helped me to understand what to expect in a progressive. A Hornady LNL or Dillon 650 is now on my wish list. One way to skip this process is to find a couple of pards who reload and check out the differant machines before you buy. Most important is to pick up a couple of good reload manuals. They go into detail what, where, why, and when for each step, plus they have cutaway drawings and pictures of the dies and ammo. The ones I chose are Lee Modern Reloading, Lymans 48th Editon, and Lyman Shotshell Reloading. Kempfs has package deals with everything included to get you started, the Pro Auto Disk and Auto Disk Riser is a must have upgrade. Good Luck.
http://www.kempfgunshop.com/products/reloading/completerelo/KempfKit.html
Jefro, Relax-Enjoy
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You can also look on www.gunbroker.com if your looking for a used press Its an auction site like ebay but deals in mostly firearms and related items. I started with a RCBS Rockchucker and its what I still use. I am never in a hurry when I load so I dont need a progressive.
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I started with a Lee single stage press, an auto disk powder measure from Lee, and a Lee priming tool. It was the best way to learn. It lets you work through each step slowly and get a feel for it and it is economical. If you are thinking about eventually shooting Black Powder you are going to be loading in stages anyway so faster or more complex equipment isn't going to benefit you that much. Looking on Gunbroker is a good idea, sometimes you will also find good buys on www.auctionarms.com for reloading equipment too.
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If you are thinking about eventually shooting Black Powder you are going to be loading in stages anyway so faster or more complex equipment isn't going to benefit you that much.
I have given my pledge to the Holy Black...
I'm glad you made that comment. I may not have found this out until later. This forum is so useful. Thank you.
I believe I shall approach the Missus for permission to spend a portion of the stimulus check on an American made Lee Breech Lock Challenger Press Kit. I think I prefer the Safety Prime. Set of dies, 45 Colt Carbide 4 Die Set for the revolver and Lee 44/40 die set (steel) for the rifle, bullet puller, case length guages, and book. $200 delivered. I think she'll go for it.
Don't know diddly about tumbler and media. Yet... ;) Figure I can make loading blocks. Other than the components themselves, anything else necessary to purchase?
BP
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That sounds like a good place to start. If you are going to be loading Holy Black you might want to add a Lee Dipper set, they are less that $10 and I use them when loading BP.
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That sounds like a good place to start. If you are going to be loading Holy Black you might want to add a Lee Dipper set, they are less that $10 and I use them when loading BP.
Noted. Thanks.
BP
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I use a pistol powder flask with the spout cut to the proper length to give the charge that I want. I ALWAYS check the powder in the spout and then in the case to be sure that there will be some compression. It works well for me. It is another option.
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for a tumbler I would go with the Frankfort Arsenal kit Midway USA sells its a good bargin and works good for what I use it for
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=414369&t=11082005
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Howdy
The perenial question. I am personally of the opinon that it is best to learn reloading on a single stage press, I taught myself with an old Lyman Spartan press that I bought used for $50 at a gunshow.
HOWEVER, it is completely feasable to learn on a progressive machine, IF and ONLY IF, you have the patience and discipline to load one round at a time through the machine until you thoroughly understand what is happening at each and every station. This does not mean running 3 rounds through the machine and then going to full auto. Anything less and you will learn to be a machnine operator, but you will not learn much about reloading.
If you are thinking about eventually shooting Black Powder you are going to be loading in stages anyway so faster or more complex equipment isn't going to benefit you that much.
????? I load Black Powder on my Hornady Lock & Load AP with a Lyman Black Powder measure mounted on it. Been doing so for about 4 years now.
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I certainly agree with Driftwood’s comments. When I started to reload, a friend gave me his Dillon 550 press to use. I did learn how to operate the machine using the excellent instructional Video from Dillon. Now please don’t get me wrong the Dillon is a very good machine. I just felt that it was too fast for a beginner like myself. I wanted to learn and monitor each individual operation.
I’m using the Lee Classic Turret Press in sort of a semi-progressive mode:
1) I install a turret with (2) sizing-decapping dies and (2) expander dies. I insert a case,
size-decap then index the turret. I then expand the case and index the turret. I remove
the case, insert a fresh case and start the process again.
2) I clean the cases with Simple Green and run a brush in the primer pockets.
3) I prime off press using an RCBS Hand Priming Tool.
4) I charge the cases off press using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure checking every tenth
case for the correct charge. I charge in lots of 50 per tray and then check the tray for
double charges or no charges at all.
5) I then install a turret with (2) bullet seating dies and (2) crimp dies. I insert a case &
bullet, seat the bullet then index the turret. I then crimp the case and index the turret. I
remove the case, insert a fresh case & bullet and start the process again. During this operation I will
periodically check the overall length.
Please note that the turret will index automatically with each pull of the lever. With this method I get two separate press operations with one case insertion into the shell holder.
(picture of turrets) http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk81/jvsaffran/Reloading/100_0293.jpg
So far I’ve loaded over 3500 rounds in .38 special. I feel that I’m able to monitor each operation with this method. Eventually I want to learn how to reload black powder cartridges. I also want to learn to reload .45-70 cartridges for my Sharps. For this I will use a Lee Classic Cast press. As I’ve mentioned, someday I may get myself a Dillon 650 or a Hornady Lock n Load progressive press.
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I have the Lee Deluxe 4 Hole Turret Press Kit with Auto Index. Add the Auto prime and the auto-disk riser (this should be included with the kit), and the dies of your choice. I bought the Deluxe pistol dies that include the factory crimp die.
I use it in auto mode for pistol, then remove the auto index and you can do longer shells in manual mode. (32 winchester special and 45-70 don't work in auto mode, the bullets hit on the die as the turret turns after the last stage).
Advantages:
Cost.
Once you set the dies, they stay set. You don't have to re-mount them every time you need them.
If you load a 2nd caliper, just buy another 4 hole turret top (under $10.00)
I also have the micro measure disk for the auto disk powder measure but I think I have used it once.
I did later buy the lee perfect powder measure for larger then pistol cases instead of the double disk kit for the auto disk powder measure that came with the kit.
With both powder measures, I find if you keep them at least 1/2 full they are more accurate.
Disavanatges:
Some times the auto index don't exactly 100% index, but its not a problem to give it a nudge when needed.
The last 2 primers will not feed in the auto prime.
the perfect powder measure will lead a crumb or 2 of powder at times.
Also the perfect powder can be tough to figure out how to make it auto, but I only use it on rifle cases which i am doing manual anyway.
Be very careful with the screws that mount the Auto disk hopper to the charger, there only plastic threads.
My Neighbor is just starting to reload, I have recommended the same press to him.
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When I began reloading for CAS it was my first time reloading for any reason. I went with a Lee 4 hole turret press to start as it seemed both easy and inexpensive. It allowed me to run my ammo through one process at a time like a simple single stage press, but also to leave my dies set up and adjusted. If I had to do it again, I would have spent the 10 or 20 extra bucks and gotten the Classic Turret Press from Lee. That one has the spent primers pushed out through the bottom of the ram and not going all over the room. (I tried everything I could think of, they still fly around.) I was priming using an RCBS hand primer and hand weighing each charge. Everything else was done on the Lee.
When finances permitted it, I picked up a Dillon xl650. That has been a lifesaver.
I used the Lee to get used to what I was doing, how things should feel, etc. Now that I am comfortable with that, I feel confident using the Dillon to load my ammo. I was able to run about 50 rounds an hour at a relaxed pace with the Lee turret the way I was running it. With the Dillon at a relaxed pace, I can run 100 rounds in 15 minutes.
That makes a lot of difference for me as I am loading for two of us and 6 hours was an awful lot of time to spend getting set up for a match.
I still load my BP ammo on my Lee turret with a Lyman 55 BP measure to throw the powder charges.
Hope this is some help!
Jack Lee
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Anybody using a standard RCBS uniflow powder measure for black powder? I've talked to old timers who've been using these for BP for 40 years. I wasn't too hep on it untill I bought my last batch of BP the other day...It comes in plastic cans now! :o So, I figure it's all right to use the RCBS powder measure....... plastic powder cans, plastic powder bin, what's the diff?......I've loaded a few cartridges with it and so far haven't blown up..... ;)
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Anybody using a standard RCBS uniflow powder measure for black powder? I've talked to old timers who've been using these for BP for 40 years. I wasn't too hep on it untill I bought my last batch of BP the other day...It comes in plastic cans now! :o So, I figure it's all right to use the RCBS powder measure....... plastic powder cans, plastic powder bin, what's the diff?......I've loaded a few cartridges with it and so far haven't blown up..... ;)
Rooster man
I’ve been using a standard RCBS Uniflow powder measure for about 19 years now. The last 13 have been with Pyrodex (not the true Black), and haven’t blown myself up yet. I think you’ll find several discussions of the use of various powder measures with Black, and there does not seem to ever be a problem.
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i started 20 yrs ago with a lee press, went to a lee pro 1000, i like it, will probably buy a dillon when money permits. I've picked up a lot of reloading stuff used at garage sales, gun shows, flea markets. I think i'ts best to start out with a single stage press until you get familiar with the basics of reloading. hope this helps some. mb
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I started with the Lyman T-Mag expert Kit. At the time the best price was from Mid South Shooters Supply. Also got the shell holder set and some primer pocket cleaning tools for large and small primers and the Lyman Case Kit. Think it was 94 when I got started.
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Howdy!
'Tho this post started over 3 years ago, one can still get many good ideas. I started on my best friend's RCBS Rock Chucker Jr. I don't believe they are made any more, but it was a quality press. About 8 years later (1982) I purchased a Bonanza COAX press. It was an Army re-enlistment present to myself that was used to load for my new Colt Python, which I call Monty. Monty was ALSO a re-enlistment present to myself. LOL! Next February (of 2012) will be my 30th anniversary with the Bonanza - which is now called the Forster COAX press and is STILL the finest single-stage press money can buy, in my most humble opinion. (IMMHO)
About 1995 or so, Dillon brought out their AT 500 Advanced Turret Loader, and my wonderful wife, Billie surprised me with one for Christmas. With the later purchases of 4 "upgrades" over about a year and a half it is now a full-fledged RL 550B - the mainstay of Dillon's lines. It's not the most advanced or complicated but it will load the most calibers, I think about ALL except for the big .50 BMG rounds and same sized rounds (i.e. 416 Barrett, etc.), which take a MUCH larger press and uses non-standard dies, etc.
I have a lot of Lee equipment, but I don't much care for their presses. I'm spoiled, quite frankly. The single-stage and turret presses they make are FINE, and perhaps the best bargain out there. My biggest problem is with their progressive. I KNOW many have been using them for years and are happy. I have one experience and it spoiled me forever on their big press. After 3 1/2 hours of assembly and strict adherence to their somewhat limited (IMHO) instructions, I had assembled exactly ONE round, whereupon the press broke a major piece and no longer worked. However, in my experience with OTHER Lee presses, they work fine - I simply was fortunate enough to start with other, better equipment. I did NOT mean this to become a "Why I hate Lee" post, I'm just relaying MY personal experience. Lee dies are excellent; their handheld priming tool is also excellent and I feel EVERY loader should have one as well as the Lee powder dippers. I have 2 of the priming tools (1 for LPs & the other SPs - I SAID I was spoiled!) and I also have a set of the Lee bullet moulds, as sold by Dick Dasterdly to cast the wonderful BigLube (tm) boolits.
Now you may understand where I'm coming from. I will mention several more of my opinions: You certainly CAN successfully and safely load BP cartridges on Dillon and other progressive presses, like the fine Hornady Lock-n-Load press system. You will have to make up your own mind regarding using their powder measure - or any OTHER that static MAY affect. Dillon says it will nullify their warranty, but I doubt it'd be put to the test. I modified my own powder measure by replacing the plastic hopper with a large tube of 2.125" (or thereabouts - I fergit, exactly,) copper. ALL powder hoppers - by ANY manufacturer - are made of static-free plastic, as are the plastic containers that some Black Powder is sold in!
Also, I'd recommend to a beginning loader, that if they POSSIBLY can, go ahead and buy the Dillon BL 550, which is simply the AT500 exactly like I got from my Frau, only renamed. It is a turret loader and you won't get better. Then, as you learn and progress, it can be upgraded to the RL 550B Progressive machine.
Actually, IF the money is available and someone already knows they will continue to load - and perhaps had the benefit of beginning to learn on a friend's machine, but wishes their own setup, I'd suggest buying the RL 550 B or Hornady L-n-L from the start! You can always use it as #1) a single stage press by only using station one, or #2) use them as a turret loader. It's soooo simple. IF you wallet will co-operate. It all gets down to ca$h, doesn't it?! So, if you're on a tight budget, get a Lee or Lyman Turret press (the Lyman is over $200. tho) and do what you can.
The first purchase should be loading manuals! (Again, I believe some of the excellent deals by Lee INCLUDE a manual written by Richard Lee, an expert.)
Hope this helps! Reloading ISN'T cheap or for the faint-of-heart. You won't save much money by reloading ... but you WILL be able to spend the same money and get MUCH more practice!
;)
Your mileage may vary ...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sujt7ORBJTk&feature=related
here is a link of Gunner Gatlin loading bp. interesting link
curley
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Some where along the line I either bought the lee manual and got their really cheap single stage press for free, or bought the cheapo press and got the manual free. In either case, I use the press with the lee priming set up that has the circlular primer holder and a curved feeder to prime all my non shotgun rounds. Kinda a Kluge setup that lee does not sell anymore but works most of the time if you are really careful to make the primers slide into place. Really easy to end up with one on edge or upside down.
I would get their hand operated priming tool but really don't want to buy 6 or 7 of the special shell holders used with the primer tool.
I did by the Lyman 55 BP powder measure to eliminate the problem of static with a plastic powder hopper for my BP loads. Dont want to say it was wasted money as it is a good powder measure, but well may be an unnecessary expense.
Reloading is not rocket science, get a good manual and follow their instructions. I do recommend dillons tumblers. Finally wore mine out (got it in 96 or 7) Could have had something to do with letting it tumble for about a week constantly. Called Dillon they told me they did not make the CV500 anymore and could not get the motors anymore. They now make the CV750 which is the CV500 with the CV 2000 motor and a different base large enough to hold the bigger motor. They would square me away and rebuild mine to a CV750 for $104 vs $139 or so for a new unit. Went down to dillon, was told it was not going to cost $104. I'm thinking the old bait and switch, but no it would cost only $65 as I had brought it in and was picking it up. The guy then asked my phone number to look me up. No record, tried zip code, no record, finallly found me with a record from when I lived in El Paso like 15 years ago when I bought the tumbler. Told me he would fix the tumbler under warranty. Guess at the time they warrantied the tumblers for life, something they no longer do as they do not make the tumbler motors.
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The Lee Turret presses (not meaning the Pro-1000 at all btw... bad experience with that sucker), and there are several variations of the Lee Turret Press now... 3 hole, 4 hole, and cast classic, are all decent presses.
Even if you decided on something fancier later, you would still want to keep the LEE press for one reason or another.
I have 6 presses bolted to my bench atm (2 Dillon RL500's, a Corbin Swage Press, a Lee Cast Classic, Lee 3 holed Turret Press, plus a MEC shotgun press.
The Lee turret press was my first press, well over 30 years old, still looks like new, and it still gets a regular workout.
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I got a gift card for midway usa And got the hormady Lock n Load AP this was my first press and I love it. If you shoo alot the single thing gets old quick I shoot up too 250 rounds a mouth in the spring summer and fall {about 6 mouths.} I can load about 100 to 200 rounds of 45 colt in about 45 minutes with this press.
I'm not saven any money but Im shootin alot mor and haven fun o that all that maters.