I'm looking at getting a long range gun sometime this year. I've settled on a 45-70. So what should I consider, rolling block, high wall or a sharps? This will be an I talian gun what ever I end up with. Any pros or cons with those three?
CAUTION - THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY - SO TAKE IT FOR WHAT YOU'VE PAID FOR IT.
I don't have a dog in this fight as both my 45-70's are 'Merican made, so . . . If you are dead set on getting an Italian gun, at least stick with a Pedersoli. It seems their quality is more consistant than the others. A 45-70 is fully capable of reaching out to a 1000 yards, so, good choice there. Get at least a 30" heavy oct barrel, 32" or 34" would be even better. Be prepared to spend up to $500 for a GOOD set of sights. As far as Hi Wall, Rolling Block or Sharps, flip a coin - all are strong enough to handle full BP loads. I have both a Sharps and a Rolling Block and they both shoot better than I can see anymore. I have heard VERY little bad about the Hi Wall, either.
Oh, yeah, if you aren't planning to load your own rounds and do it with real BP and at least a 500 grain lead bullet, you're on your own. These guns work best and most accurately with those loading criteria.
Some complain that the large side-hammer on the sharps gives a slower locktime and a bit of a shock that disturbs your perfect hold. I love my Gemmer Pedersoli. And you can't beat the "cache' " of the Sharps! Why hasn't anyone re-created the FREUND improvements to the Sharps?
Some say that the Hi-Wall was too late for the buffalo slaughter. It is, IMHO the best target rifle of the lot. (A fast, centre hung hammer, and an oblique falling block to seat slightly "proud" rounds.) Mine, after the barrel was bored to .38-55 by Ron Smith, is deadly!
The Roller has a lot going for it, while not, argueably, being the best in every aspect. (Tell that to the many armies that adopted the roller, and the target shooters of fame.) As I have a Pedersoli Sharps and a #3 Hi-Wall in .38-55, my next project is to get a long range target Remington. It is historically appropriate and has a great reputation on the target, and hunting, ranges of the 19th Century.
A toss-up. Take your pick!
Thanks guys! Just the info I was looking for. I'll gladly invite more opinions if anybody would like to add some.
Roosterman,
See you are from Davenport in your profile, come on up to Ackley and a CVR Big Bore Shoot sometime soon and you can see all the Big Bores in action! The list of events and CVR website info is in a thread at the top of this forum list.
You also might want to get in touch with 'Bear Tooth Billy', another new forum feller, he is near Low Moor and will give you the straight stuff, he hunts Buffler as well as hits gongs with his rifles!
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
QuoteSee you are from Davenport in your profile, come on up to Ackley and a CVR Big Bore Shoot sometime soon and you can see all the Big Bores in action!
That's the plan! ;D
Wish to second all that Otter said above. I have two Shilohs and a Pedersoli. I admit to pretty much leaving the latter in the safe now but not because of quality. I think it has outstanding quality in construction, not up there with Shiloh but very acceptable for its price. As far as shooting - I am no long range shooter, couldn't hit a building at 1000 yards. However, out to 400 yards I can not tell the difference - after that its my fault I figure. as far as I know Pedersoli is the only Italian gun to hold its own in BP cartridge matches of note. Apparently their barrels are quality.
Also second Otter's recommendation on sights, suck it up and pay for them. They say you buy two sets of sights, the ones you can afford and the ones you want.
My only complaint with Pedersoli is that the Italians have apparently never seen the forestock of an original sharps, they insist on putting that bulge in the middle of it. Small point.
"My only complaint with Pedersoli is that the Italians have apparently never seen the forestock of an original sharps, they insist on putting that bulge in the middle of it. Small point."
If that bothers you too much, you can use some filing and sandpaper to fix it. (BTW - I agree about the "bump".)
Well, I've got the itch bad, I think it's going to be a rolling block in 45-70, 34" barrel and set triggers. Sellling off another batch of old military rifles to finance the addiction..... ;)
With the improvement in quality of cases and primers and ammunition in general, the so-called advantages of the Sharps and the Hiwall over the Rolling Block are pretty well non-existant within the pressure limits of each. Certainly with black powder and lead bullets there is little difference. All can be made to shoot with care in loading. A good barrel and good sights are a very large part of the equation.
Take your pick, and what ever suits your fancy, go for it.
I have owned Sharps, HiWalls, and at present have 3 rolling blocks and a Martini, love them all.
Quote from: Roosterman on March 25, 2008, 09:25:49 PM
I'm looking at getting a long range gun sometime this year. I've settled on a 45-70. So what should I consider, rolling block, high wall or a sharps? This will be an I talian gun what ever I end up with. Any pros or cons with those three?
???Why in the world would spend that kind of money, and not even take a look at the Big Timber made sharps? A 74 from either CSharps or Shiloh is only a few hundred more than an Italian, and the quality and service beyond the sale is head and shoulders ahead with one of the USA bulit guns. Not to mention better resale value down the road should you decide to sell.
CSA also has the 75 models Sharps that will come to your door WITH good sights for the same money as Pedersoli's good sharps with only the barrel sight.
CSA has an available list with rifles that are ready to go, and if you don't see something there , they say 3 months will be all the time you need to wait. The one I ordered last Thanksgiving was in my hands and being shot before Christmas.
Shiloh has a longer wait, but from it never hurts to call as they do have rifles without a home every now and again.
One note on barrel length is the rifle's overall weight. I believe NRA Silhouette matches have a 12 pounds 2 ounce limit, if I remember correctly. Once you get over 30 inches with a heavy barrel, you can be pushing that. Staying under the limit either allows you to shoot Silhouette, or if that doesn't interest you, it might affect the rifle's resale value down the road. Just something to consider. And a last note: You're gonna love shooting these rifles. Have fun.
For a first rate Rolling Block, Lone Star Rifle Co., can put you in the driver's seat on one. Contact Dave Higginbotham and check out the goods at: http:// www.lonestarrifle.com --- some purty guns!!
Well, I've been researching buying an American made rolling block and I just can't afford it. :'( The American gun is going to cost me not just a "few hundred more" , but more like $1100 more than the Italian gun, and that doesn't even include the sights yet. Being a custom gun maker by trade I understand why the american guns are more expensive. I'm thinking of going with the Italian gun to get my feet wet and see how I like all this long distance stuff. If it's as much fun as I think it is I'll just build a rolling block myself once I figure out just what the sport is all about.
Quote from: Roosterman on April 09, 2008, 09:03:42 PM
Well, I've been researching buying an American made rolling block and I just can't afford it. :'( The American gun is going to cost me not just a "few hundred more" , but more like $1100 more than the Italian gun, and that doesn't even include the sights yet. Being a custom gun maker by trade I understand why the american guns are more expensive. I'm thinking of going with the Italian gun to get my feet wet and see how I like all this long distance stuff. If it's as much fun as I think it is I'll just build a rolling block myself once I figure out just what the sport is all about.
Well I suppose that brings two questions to mind
If you're a custom gunmaker then why not build your own?
Bet you're glad all the folks you build for didn't decide to go the same route you're about to?
I just took a peek at your Web site. Those are some sweet looking firearms.
Quote from: Ranch 13 on April 09, 2008, 10:13:35 PM
Well I suppose that brings two questions to mind
If you're a custom gunmaker then why not build your own?
Bet you're glad all the folks you build for didn't decide to go the same route you're about to?
As a matter of fact most people who find my website and request a price quote find they don't want to spend that much and do go a cheaper route. Some people have that kind of disposable income and some don't. I guess I'm in the "don't" class. ;) I can't tell you how disappointed I am to find I can't afford an american made gun. I most likely will build one in the future. Problem is right now I've never even held a rolling block, so I'm completely unfamiliar with them, that and I have a 1 1/2 year back log of work to get through before I could even put a project like that on my bench. The Italian gun will have to be my entry level gun until I know the game better and have time to build my own. Knowing me I'll build several of these if I find I like the game.
Well here's a couple of things for you to ponder.
While the Italian guns are a tiny bit cheaper than the guns made in america by american craftsmen trying to get by, they DONOT hold resale value as well as the american built guns, and that becomes important should you decide to quit the game or spend the money for a better/different gun somewhere down the road.
When you start talking long range guns, mediocre won't get it at 500 yds, and forget about any scores at 800 and beyond. Good barrels, coupled with smooth actions, and good sights are a must , unless you have no intentions of having to fight for last place.
Don't forget sights. A good set of sights suitable for long range on ANY gun is going to set you back close to 500$ Then there's the amount of lead it takes to proove out loads and compete and that's not cheap.
Getting into longrange games on the cheap isn't nearly the good idea it sounds like at the start.
If you can find a better deal than a C Sharps 1875 deluxe model with sights, that's ready to go to the line, with the ability to win matches as it comes, I'ld sure like to see it.CSA's basic highwall is also a bargain compared to the Uberti's, and the basic 74 sharps from either of the Big Timber firms isn't enough extra over a Pedersoli to get excited about.
Price checking is almighty important nowdays. The cost of the Italian guns just aren't really enough cheaper to justify sacrificing the quality at todays monetary exchange rate. Back in the day when you could get 2 or maybe even 3 Italian guns for one of the home grown ones is long gone.
The old saw about getting what you pay for is more so now than ever.
Maybe you should do some research yourself. I've been checking prices of both. An American made rolling block set up the way I want it is going to run me $2750 with out sights. The Pedersoli set up the same way with sights is $1650 . Thats not "a tiny bit cheaper" in my financial reality. I realize the Italian sights leave much to be desired, but I can upgrade later to better sights when I get more experienced and want to become more competitive. $3250 for an American made gun with good sights just isn't in my budget right now. The only way I'm going to afford a gun of that quality is build it myself. Cripes, my wife cares less what guns I spend my money on, but if I ordered a gun for over $3000 bucks I might be looking for a new place to dwell. :o
Quote from: Roosterman on April 09, 2008, 09:03:42 PM
Well, I've been researching buying an American made rolling block and I just can't afford it. :'( The American gun is going to cost me not just a "few hundred more" , but more like $1100 more than the Italian gun, and that doesn't even include the sights yet. Being a custom gun maker by trade I understand why the american guns are more expensive. I'm thinking of going with the Italian gun to get my feet wet and see how I like all this long distance stuff. If it's as much fun as I think it is I'll just build a rolling block myself once I figure out just what the sport is all about.
If I were a custom gun maker myself, I'd dive in and build one for myself. I'm NOT a 'smith and, with some help from a friend who is, I put one together about 10 years ago. Find an action worth refurbishing, get a good barrel (#1 heavy oct from GM, Badger or other) get some wood from Treebone (or other), call Shiloh and get a set of barrel sights the same as they put on their Sharps rifles and you're ready to rock and roll. If you do get the Italian RB "complete" with long range sights, trust me, you will buy them again. I shot for over a year with just the barrel sights, and since no one else will say it, I shot quite well out to 600 yards with them (ouch, just hurt my arm patting my back). INCLUDING a good set of long range sights, I have less than $1500 wrapped up in mine - that's with updated prices for barrel and wood. That's less than Italian and since you will have done it yourself and for yourself, you'll like it even more . . .
EXACTLY what kind of setup do you want? You just say an Italian vs American made is about $1100 less for the "same" (or similar) setup. I'm sure you can do better than either by building one yourself. It will be one of a kind and will be "Made in America".
??? Lonestars basic roller is 1900 and change, your fowler is 2k. Guess I'm not following the highpriced american stuff. :o
Otter's right, the sights standard on those Italians aren't much to get excitied about and you will end up spending for sights again.
Might be as you are a gun builder, you could get ahold of one of Doc Carlsons (Upper Missouri Trading co ) rolling block actions, a #3 winchester tapered green mt barrel and build your own. You've got the wood available so thats not a problem. If you're not set up to thread the barrel , once you have that action smoothed and ready you can contact Douglas barrels and they'll install and chamber one of their barrels for you , then all you need to do is stock the thing and put some sights on it.
If you don't want to got the UMTCo action best bet would be to pick up a roller off of one of the auction sites and go from there for cheap.
Unless you're dead set on a roller, CSharps 1875 with deluxe sights is 1680+fet and shipping so, for about 1800 you'ld be into a rifle that won't need to change sights at the same price as an Italian built roller.
Well I been quiet on this topic but I think I will add my $.02. I started shooting long range about 2 years ago. I started cheap. I bought a used Rolling BLock made by Pedersoli and smokeless ammo from Cabelas. The rifle came with Pedersoli Long range sites. Gun & sites $700 Thanks Ol' Gabe ammo from Cabelas $300 started for a grand. I still use that same rifle and am now loading the good black smokey stuff. But anyway the point is you can find a good used gun and see if you even like the sport instead of droping 2 to 3 grand and find you dont like it. Just my $.02 worth.
I'm currently in the process of building another roller. The action is from a Swedish roller purchased from Buffalo Arms. It is a nice action needing only a new barrel- price: $750 delivered. Add a Green Mtn tapered octagon for $260, a set of Lee Shaver sights, and did the work to rebarrel and install the sights. The buttstock was useable with a refinish job and a lace on comb from Cabela's, will have to make a forearm. I will still be below the price for a Pedersoli. ;D
Bristow's right. I bought my original RB NYS musket for $500. It is VG and only needs a sling.
And my Pedersoli Sharps will shoot with anybody's now that it has a good sighting system on it.
Pitspitr are you going to be at the Midwest Nationals in Alliance the 2-4 of May?
Look in Classifieds for new posting, a Rolling Block Rifle, good basis for a custom project. Regards, Shieldsmt
Just add a soule sight and a globe to that rifle , load some ammo and head to the shoots. ;D That's a heck of a deal for someone looking to get into a roller on the cheap.
Quote from: Ranch 13 on April 11, 2008, 10:00:01 AM
Pitspitr are you going to be at the Midwest Nationals in Alliance the 2-4 of May?
Doesn't look like I'll be able to. My daughter has conference track (high school. I drive bus) on the 2nd and my son has conference track (College) at Gunnison CO on the 4th.
Where are you from?
I started with a Pedersoli 45/70 and after developing a load it shot very well, I strongly agree with the others on sights. $480 for a rear sight seems absurd but my experince has been that the pedersoli sight is not good enough for longe range. I am in Wheatland just up the road from you. I will give you loading specs at ackley. My first trip there was extremely worthwhile, I was struggling big time with my load but on the second day Del gave 25 rounds of his loads to try. WOW 17 buffs were down and I was hooked, I've never forgot the generosity and sharing of knowledge. Bring your notepad and wander around and ask lots of questions see you there
BTB
Pitspitr I'm at Fort Laramie.
Nope not Sam Walker, Don McDowell up north by Hell's Gap.
It's amazing how small the world is sometimes. We live in different states and have never met, yet we have a mutual aquaintance.
I doubt that anyone who's ever met Sam would forget him. ;D
;D Yup that's quite a cast of characters they have down there at the fort now.
:)Keep on offering to bring enough ammo we could all twist the handle a few times on their Gataling gun, :o but don't ever seem to get any closer to get to play with the thing for an hour or so. ;D
Well, I finally made a decision and a purchase. It's not an Italian gun , but I'm hoping it will do. Do you guys think this will get me by?
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/Lone%20Star%20Rolling%20Block/ (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/Lone%20Star%20Rolling%20Block/)
Just send that Lone Star on down to me. I'll wring it out and give you a review on its performance. ;D
BEAUTIFUL!!!! Besides that, it's plumb purty!
Good looking rifle, Roosterman. I think that'll lead you down the road to another, then another & etc. You do need to give some details, though, in addition to maker. 45-70? Looks like a 34" half and half barrel? Have fun (I know you will) . . .
32" barrel chambered in 45-90. weighs 11 1/2 lbs with the sights. Supposedly Serial #1 by the way, made in something like '92 or '93. Who can tell me something about the sights? they are "F. J.Zika #8 long-range rear sight, and a Kyler spirit level, windage adjustable front sight". Being new to all this I wouldn't know if these are good or crapola.....
I havn't got it yet, probably be better than a week before I get it in my grubby little hands.
The sights are made by members and competitors that are members of the ASSRA. Both are well known in the Scheutzen circle for the quality of their sights and other work.
Roosterman; You were jes stringin us along! You had this beauty in mind from the start!
Quote from: Sir Charles deMoutonBlack on April 17, 2008, 08:19:29 PM
Roosterman; You were jes stringin us along! You had this beauty in mind from the start!
Nope, honest. I was doing a whole lot of researching as well as soul searching when I stumbled onto this beautiful gun. I went on a wild selling spree and came up with the cash and bought it. I figured it was a hell of a deal. I'm already think about another as in my research I found more than a couple good deals on American made guns. ;)
Heading over to Ackley Iowa in a week to pester those good folks about all the ins and outs of the game. If I have the gun by then I'll probably drag it along. ;D
I'd like to thank all the folks who brought me to the point of making the jump. Many thanks guys!
Got the bad boy today....man what a gun! ;D
Howdy Pards
Well here is my take on it.
Pedersoli Rifles will shoot with best of them.
I keep hearing that there sights aren't the best .
They four or five or six different types, styles and prices.
I have had 5 or 6 different Pedersoli sights in the past 12 years.
The first cost about $45.00 I was having a RB rebarreled by Ron Snover he said they wouldn't make for silhoettes.
So I bought another one that is still on that rifle,that is marked 2 1/2 moa on the main staff very difficult to see and the elevation
screw has about 3/4 turn of play,but this has never pentalized me in the shiloette game having to look at each setting.
Then I bought another one, the same deal for my Pedersoli Sharps , I think they Both cost me $130.00 each from Cabelas.
Then Pedersoli came out with the soule sight, that is an excellent sight,maybe 1/4 turn play in the elevation screw,but like
I said I like to see where my settings are.this 45-70 I have better than 8000 rounds through it.I paid $180.00 for this sight from Cherry's
Then a couple of years ago I bought a 50/90 Big Bore Pedersoli From Cimmaron and that came with A soule sight.
I have shot Homer at 1000yds with both of these guns It is strange but both of these rifle were set at 175 moa .
The weekend before last I won Buffalo Rifle Shooting Match at North Mountain CAS PA.STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH SIGHTS OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A LITTLE PLAY IN THE ELEVATION SCREW
DUSTY ED
SASS REGULATOR
30639
Then I bought a Pedersoli Sharps Big Bore 50-90
I got all my bases covered now, I bought a Pedersolly sharps long range model in 45-70 at an auction. Now all I need is the time to shoot. :P
I'm having MVA sights MR sights installed on my Pedersoli .45/70. After I get the rifle back, take it to the range and check it out and if I remember I'll post the results .
Quote from: Ranch 13 on April 10, 2008, 06:15:24 AM
While the Italian guns are a tiny bit cheaper than the guns made in america by american craftsmen trying to get by, they DONOT hold resale value as well as the american built guns, and that becomes important should you decide to quit the game or spend the money for a better/different gun somewhere down the road.
When you start talking long range guns, mediocre won't get it at 500 yds, and forget about any scores at 800 and beyond. Good barrels, coupled with smooth actions, and good sights are a must , unless you have no intentions of having to fight for last place.
In some ways I agree with you, I would love one of Kirk's rifles. I'm half way there, I picked of a bull barrel in .50 last time I was there but it's going on an Italian action. Of course with a Shiloh you definitely have pride of ownership and bragging rights but don't expect it to make you a better shot.
And this where I disagree with you. You'll find no difference in shooting ability between a Shiloh/C Sharps and a Pedersoli. Pedersoli barrels are excellent. It's the nut behind the butt that makes the difference! The current Long Range World Champion, Colin Buck, won the Long Range aggregate at the 2006 World Championships in South Africa with a Pedersoli Long Range in 45/70. Proper sights though, Lee Shaver's soule. Plus many hours load development.......
Incidentally, as far as calibre is concerned, most of us over here (the UK) are using .40's now for Long Range. With the right bullet and load it will equal, and in some cases, out perform the .45. In fact Colin has just had a Shiloh 45 x 2.6 rebarreled to 40/70ss and that really shoots at 1000 yards!
Cheers
Clive
My C. Sharps 1874 "Old Reliables" are in .45-70 Government and .50-140 Sharps Straight (3-1/4"). The .45-70 has MVA sights, long range real Soule with Hadley eye cups. and MVA globe front sight. The .50-140 boasts C. Sharps Long Range tang sights with globe front sight and spirit levels.
Both rifles shoot one heck of a lot better than I do! :-)
I had an unsettling experience recently. Somehow, the front sight FELL OFF of my .50-140 seconds before a Long Range buffalo match. "Luckily", there was a heavy cross wind so I was able to finally get on target.
I sure did not win that match! :-)
I have found that the Hadley eye cups have allowed this White Buffalo to continue to shoot well after my eyesight has diminished a tad! :-)
Clive yes the Italian guns can be made to shoot. Some of them take alot of horsing around to get the bullet sized right, and chambers up to an extra .2 long arent' uncommon. Just have to make take some time to make em work.
Nope buying a Big Timber rifle won't make you a better shot.
I've seen some 38-55's out shoot 45's at 1000 even in heavy winds, but there again, it's more the skill of the trigger yanker.
My point is was and always will be that at the current exchange rate, the Italian guns are a poor buy when compared to the price of the Big Timber , and other (CPA,Winchester, etal). Just take a minute and do some price comparisons, and it'll soon be quite obvious that getting maybe as many as 2 Italian guns for the price of 1 USA built rifle are gone gone gone. Most of the time if you look reall close , by the time you get it all in and all done at todays dollar, the USA builts will be cheaper in some instances, and the resale value of the USA built guns will always be far and above any of the Italian builts.
Of course that applies mostly to those of us here in the USA, what things are for you folks off shore I have no idea.
Quote from: Ranch 13 on June 18, 2008, 01:06:55 PM
Clive yes the Italian guns can be made to shoot. Some of them take alot of horsing around to get the bullet sized right, and chambers up to an extra .2 long arent' uncommon. Just have to make take some time to make em work.
No more horsing around than any other in my experience. Slugging the barrel and a quick cerosafe should be done on all BPCRs in my opinion. I agree with the slightly longer chamber. That's why it's always best to leave one grease groove exposed when shooting a Pedersoli
Quote
I've seen some 38-55's out shoot 45's at 1000 even in heavy winds, but there again, it's more the skill of the trigger yanker.
Er, yes and no. I fell lucky on a particular .40 bullet design and with that I can out shoot myself using my .45 using any that I have. I wish I'd had it for the 2006 World Championships. Bullet design is critical, for example a creedsmoor is more accurate that a PGT design. But the PGT requires a lot less work to keep in the black at 1000 yards than the creedsmoor. But yes, if the shooter can't hit a barrel from the inside......
Quote
My point is was and always will be that at the current exchange rate, the Italian guns are a poor buy when compared to the price of the Big Timber , and other (CPA,Winchester, etal). Just take a minute and do some price comparisons, and it'll soon be quite obvious that getting maybe as many as 2 Italian guns for the price of 1 USA built rifle are gone gone gone. Most of the time if you look reall close , by the time you get it all in and all done at todays dollar, the USA builts will be cheaper in some instances, and the resale value of the USA built guns will always be far and above any of the Italian builts.
Of course that applies mostly to those of us here in the USA, what things are for you folks off shore I have no idea.
There's not a great deal of difference in price of either over here. We get shafted by import duty, VAT, delivery charges, you name it. For example, your Swiss powder travels a darn sight further to get to you that to us but because ofthe various taxes we pay our Swiss is £36 a kilo - $36 a pound. And Wano is not much cheaper. How much do you pay?
Cheers
Clive
Well Clive good here's to wishing you lots of center hits on your score card. ;)
Quote from: Ranch 13 on June 18, 2008, 03:07:44 PM
Well Clive good here's to wishing you lots of center hits on your score card. ;)
Can but try ;)