Sure, his name is Dan Phariss. He was a gunsmith at Shiloh Sharps for years and now does custom gunwork as well as writes a column in "Black Powder Cartridge News". Smokeless, no matter how light the load, has an initial pressure spike greater than BP. Added to that, you only have to screw up once with smokeless in a toggle link as opposed to say a Glock.I read his stuff and subscribe the BPCN. Thanks for the info...
My view is that keeping the pressures to the same or less as BP produces is fine in replica/reproduction arms.
I just don't trust smokeless in a 19th century design for the most part. Putting smokeless in these guns is like feeding a horse rocket fuel. Remember, powder companies are "off the hook" legally if your smokeless reload blows up as NO gun manufacturer recommends reloads and shooting such nullifies any warranty or inferred liability. I would be surprised if we ever see smokeless data from a major powder co. for 45-75, 45-60 and the two other rounds in the '76.
Hobie, you can't. Reread my previous post about "initial spikes".
Hobie, you can't. Reread my previous post about "initial spikes".Explain how an "initial spike" can differ from a spike. "Spike" implies "maximum". If spike is not maximum do you perhaps mean something else? Does smokeless spike more than once? Now, I can understand a spike occuring later or earlier in the ignition cycle. If we accept that BP and smokeless (such as IMR 3031 or 4198) have different pressure curves and that those curves if different from BP might damage the action, then do we also think that BP subs like 777 or Pyrodex will produce damage? This is aside from the concern about mistakes in charge weights, supposedly impossible with BP.
Don't know about the rocket fuel analogy, but many purist sure don't take to the idea! Just seems wrong they say. Kinda like shooting smokeless in a Shiloh Sharps! If you want to see people get ill, suggest THAT to those folks! ;DI believe we'll see lab produced pressure test results of smokeless in the .45-75 in about a year. I'm pretty sure somebody is working on this...
I predict we will see smokeless data for all of the 76 calibers within a year. :) As my old Granny used to say, I'll betcha my betcha wins your betcha, whatsha betcha? ;)
In any case, interesting thread, and I think these are ideas that need to be kicked around! :)
With Nitro powders, when they go over the top on pressures it is like a speeding coal train with bad brakes on a snot covered track.
Unable to read the article w/o giving personal info. Bad link.
In bp,,would 2f be the preminum choice for the '76 calibres ?
To try to "guess" on nitro powders is foolish, just because it burns like this in one round, don't mean it will in a different round.
In bp,,would 2f be the preminum choice for the '76 calibres ?
Posted by: Marshal Deadwood
Insert Quote
I too would like to know the 'data' on these 'blown up' '76win rifles.
My guess is common sence was totally abandoned.
If your're staying at BP velocity...I'm wanting to see some specific data on what smokeless powder blew any of those rifles up.Was Mr. Barnes or Mr. Amber the editor of that one?
My 1969 Cartridges of the World is showing a 1450fps loading for the 45-60 with smokeless...so what's the deal?
If your're staying at BP velocity...I'm wanting to see some specific data on what smokeless powder blew any of those rifles up.
My 1969 Cartridges of the World is showing a 1450fps loading for the 45-60 with smokeless...so what's the deal?
What is your source on that?
There were NO incidents or pressure signs with this load.
Why don't we all reach an agreement? Some of us are "purists" and wish to use these weapons as they were originally designed as well as not wanting to "push the envelope" on a 19th century design. Others, for whatever their own personal reasons, have a disdain for real BP and will use any means possible to avoid using it. Period.
Then we have a "truce". All have saved face and are still friends. ;)
P.S. I'll admit I was skeptical of a forum for the '76 but it will be a an excellent resource to refer neophytes to just like the Spencer Forum. :)
For a number of years my standard go-to load for my original .45-60 was 32 grains of IMR 4198 behind a 300 grain bullet of hard cast and jacketed design. There were NO incidents or pressure signs with this load. With all that I have read on this thread, the gun should have been severely damaged by this heavy load, but that was not the case at all.
On the other hand some of us recognize that it is inevitable that BP (not being worshiped by most folks) might be in short supply, difficult to acquire or even forbidden and yet, contrarians that we must be to buy and shoot these guns, we might still want to shoot and use what is still an expensive firearm.
I guess I just can't fathom why anyone would want to shoot anything but real BP in 19th century style weapons. ANYONE can order BP from http://www.powderinc.com/ in as small an order as a mere five lbs. No excuse there.
BP is far easier to clean then "smokeyless" powder. No need for mind altering chemicals. The biggest problem I see is ignorance. By ignorance I do not mean stupidity. Far from it. Simply that many people fear what they do not understand. "It stinks". "It fouls". Well, yeah. That's the point. To experience the ENTIRE concept of history and experience what our forefathers knew.
Shooting smokeless in these type weapons is like making a horse eat rocket fuel.
I'll share a story with you. I saw a fella tell a guy at an NCOWS shoot once "well, if you hate BP then maybe you need to get back up there behind the line with the women and children."
;)
Well Hobie I guess your going to have to go digging for it like I have over the years, remember a lot of this is basic simple physics. A good start would be Hatcher's Notebook, PO Akley's handloading guide, Get some of Dean Grenells books, I don't have the formula for figuring kienetic energy with me here at work, if I have time between customers I could Google it. A lot of this information has been covered in recent years in Handloader magazine and most up to date loading manuals cover it in some depth. The information is out there if you do a little looking.So what you're saying is that I have derived a different opinion from the same sources of information. Interesting indeed.
I guess I just can't fathom why anyone would want to shoot anything but real BP in 19th century style weapons.Because some of us like a little variety. Otherwise, life might get a little boring :(. I definitely like shooting b.p. and I definitely like shooting smokeless. ;D Smokeless powder also has a history in many of the original b.p. cartridges.
Is it just me who has after reading Paco Kellys review on the 1873 in .357 mag, sat around and thought about the idea of an 1876 chambered in .357? It seems to me, that should allow the .357 to be loaded to it's highest potential easily enough with the beefier design of the '76.
I dunno, maybe it's just crazy talk, but the idea just appeals to me for some reason. I like a rifle that'd be overdesigned for the round it shoots, it means it'll last forever.
Maybe I am also missing the entire purpose of this gun? But then again I think it's a new angle to look at it from.
Is it just me who has after reading Paco Kellys review on the 1873
Always wanted to know...who is Paco Kelly?
Before he retired several years ago, he was a Law Enforcement officer......the only one I ever heard of that stopped a felons car with a .45-70 levergun!
I think I am going to try loading up some .45-60 loads with about 44 grains of 3031.Tommy - NO!
Tommy - NO!
The 44gr 3031 you're going to try is for the 40-65 Winchester! not the 45-60
For the Winchester 45-60, Cartridges of the World lists 300 lead - IMR 4198 25gr - 1450 fps
4198 has a burn rate of 86 fastest
3031 has a burn rate of 97 fastest
5744 has a burn rate of 78 fastest
Your should be loading in the range of 25-28grs of 3031 using a 300gr bullet
Here's hoping you have some reference books or the 44grs of 3031 was a typo cause that would be a real dangerous charge
I'm not an expert on internal ballistics but it seems to me that the same bullet pushed by the same powder contained in cases with the same capacity will generate the same pressure. Based on this assumption here is how I work up my loads:
The basic load data came from 45-70 data listed in the Lyman “Cast Bullet Handbook” minus 10%. I came up with the 10% figure by comparing the case capacities of 45-70 and 45-75 cases. According to info I found on the net the average case capacity for 45-70 seems to be 81.05 grns of water. My 348 45-75 cases average 71.5 grns, (88.2% of the 45-70) and my Jamison cases 76.1 ( 93.9%). I split the difference at 10%. Sixgun Shorty told me that the working pressure of the new 76's was 20,000 CUP so my goal was to stay below that.. So I find a load using the bullet and powder I want to use that generates around 17,000CUP of less and reduce it by 10%. That is my MAX load. My starter load is at least 10% below that.,
The above fire formed .348 case capacity came from cases that had been fired once or twice. I recently measure the capacity of cases that have been fired more than 5 or 6 times and found the average capacity had increased to 76.66... grains of water. Just goes to show how tough these .348 cases are.
OK, just for fun> How many here know there is also a 40-60 Marlin round that is not the same as the 40-60 Winchester round?Nice write up of this caliber in Cartridges of the World (believe all the editions) with some loading data too
One thing to note here is that they do NOT differentiate between CAST and JACKETED bullets and we all know they produce different results (both in velocity and pressure)!
Whenever Western Powders Inc do not test, and have actual data, on a particular caliber or caliber/bullet combination, we may in some cases provide some guideline. This information will be based on various procedures and calculations, or from other very reliable sources.
1. SAFETY is our prime concern therefore:
1.1. The loading data is conservative, especially regarding the minimum or start load to ensure a safe baseline to work from.
1.2. The safety margin built into the start load might be more than the customary 10%.
2. We strongly recommend.
2.1. To always start at the recommended minimum “START” load.
2.2. If at all possible, measure the velocity.
2.3. Contact us again with the velocity data, so that we can verify, and correlate with our calculated/estimated data. The data should also be compared, with the typical velocity levels accepted in the industry, for that particular caliber-bullet weight combination."
I realize now I had the wrong info. on a 45-60 load using IMR 3031. I was looking at Trapdoor .45-70 loads from the Speer Manual which are a bit hotter than my Lyman 47th edition manual. Out of a Trapdoor the Lyman manual has a starting load of IMR 3031 as 29.0 grains with a velocity of 1056 fps and CUP pressure of 7,600. The max. load is 37.o grains of IMR 3031 powder at 1435 velocity and CUP pressure of 16,800. In looking at these numbers do you think it would be safe to use a load of about 30 to 34 grains of IMR 3031 in my .45-60 cal. Uberti 1876 Rifle? I am wondering if I would get similar results. Again sorry if I got some of your blood up with my eariler post. I was looking at a reloading manual for ideas on what smokeless powders to use in my .45-60 reloading. I really want to be safe and not blow myself or a $1200 rifle up.
I realize now I had the wrong info. on a 45-60 load using IMR 3031. I was looking at Trapdoor .45-70 loads from the Speer Manual which are a bit hotter than my Lyman 47th edition manual. Out of a Trapdoor the Lyman manual has a starting load of IMR 3031 as 29.0 grains with a velocity of 1056 fps and CUP pressure of 7,600. The max. load is 37.o grains of IMR 3031 powder at 1435 velocity and CUP pressure of 16,800. In looking at these numbers do you think it would be safe to use a load of about 30 to 34 grains of IMR 3031 in my .45-60 cal. Uberti 1876 Rifle? I am wondering if I would get similar results. Again sorry if I got some of your blood up with my eariler post. I was looking at a reloading manual for ideas on what smokeless powders to use in my .45-60 reloading. I really want to be safe and not blow myself or a $1200 rifle up.Go back and read Mike D.'s post re: his use of IMR 3031...
...I am only trying to duplicate black powder velocities ...
Here is a link to the only NEW reloading data that I've found for the 76 Winchester rounds. It comes from the Chaparral website.Thanks buddy!
http://www.chaparralarms.com/specs/calibers.htm
Hoof Hearted,
I don't believe that I am a dangerous man. I treat all my firearms with great respect and never try to hotrod any of them. The load that I mentioned in my previous post is completely safe in my rifle. Since June I have done a lot of testing with different loads and here are some of my findings. In the 45-60 using the 321 grain RCBS 45-300 GC and H4198 if I use the 40% rule as a starting point i.e. 24 grains there is insufficient pressure developed to seal the case mouth against the chamber and therefore get smoke marks half way down the case :(. At 26 grains there is still not enough pressure to seal the case and there is still a lot of smoke on the cases. At 28 grains there is only an occational case with black marks and at 30 grains there are never any black marks ;D. When I load 60 grains of GOEX Cartridge using the same bullet I also get no black marks on the outside of the cases but the primers (Winchester Large Rifle in all cases) are imprinted with the machine marks on the bolt face. I do not get imprinted primers using 30 grains of H4198. This implies to me that the pressure from the black powder load is greater than the pressure from the smokeless load and since I am getting close to the original factory velocity I feel this is safe for my rifle 8).
I have also been working with 5744 at around 26 to 26.5 but until I get to chronograph these loads I won't comment further.
My ultimate goal is to find a black powder load that is very accurate and that I can shoot a 40 round match with out needing to clean between animals. Once I find that load then that will be all I will shoot in my rifle.
One other thing I saw on another thread that someone was asking how to clean a rifle after shooting black powder. I have a home made rifle rest that allows me to place the rifle in upside down so that the breach is lower than the muzzle and that keeps all the gunk out of the action. I use any commercial black powder solvent for cleaning. This method has worked fine for me for the past 50+ years.
Hold center.
Pards;
First off , I was a member about 5 years back and somehow I got lost ::),,,,,, But I am back .....
As too presure "Spikes" in smokeless loadings , If you are getting presure spikes then you are using the Wrong powder for the job at hand .... What causes presure "Spikes" is burning smokeless powder outside of it design parameters ... As in trying to reach the same velocities possible with "LIL GUN" in .44 mag. using Win 231 ... Or any other faster burning powder ...
The presure curve of loads can now be measured , and not just guessed at ... And with proper loads the max presure and the rate at which the presure rises can be held to produce less strain on old steel than "BLACK POWDER" loads of yore ...
The presure curve as measured and ploted by modern professional balistic equipment is worlds above that availible even 3 years ago ...
A pard form the SASS wire pointed out this thread to me , so I thought I would try and bring a little light instead of all fire and smoke ....
Jabez Cowboy
I was fortunate enough to have a friend offer to test my 45-70 load in a pressure barrel. Results are:
Hercules 2400, poly fiber fill over the powder , Lyman/Gould 330+gr bullet cast of wheel weights, WWLR primer, Rem case.
45-70 pressure barrel, 20 shots fired , 18,300psi. , 1134fPS , SD 13fps, extreme spread 39fps , 1" X 1.125" group.
If you want the load info email me and I'll reply back with the recipe. :)
My load has worked for me for over 1000's rounds and 17 years now.
Howdy Grizzly,
45-70. I use it in a 1881 Marlin maunufactured in 1886. It's been my primary rifle for over 15 years now. I'm going to stack the Winchester in front and use it some more.
I haven't had any 45-75 loads tested.
Doc,
Thank you for your data.
Jubal,
Likewise, thank you for your data. In a previous post I noted that the .45-60 cartridge with a 300 gr. bullet (seating depth .40") has the same capacity as a .45-70 catridge with a 405 gr. bullet (seating depth .63").
The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows a loading in the .45-70 with 28.5 grs. IMR 4198 developing only 13,900 C.U.P. with a 420 gr. bullet. There could be a slightly different burn rate between your lot of 4198 and the lot that Lyman used, but since your chronographed your load at 1,315 f.p.s., your load should be plenty safe.
Regarding accuracy with b.p., if you tried the SWISS brand you just might find that you would achieve better accuracy since the fouling is softer allowing for more accurate repeating shots. Schuetzen BP would likely be better in your application than Goex but probably not quite as good as SWISS. SPG would be a good lube to use.
w44wcf
FYI, this is an e-mail I recieved in response to my request for smokeless reloading data for the 45-60 and 45-75 calibers.
I think it is a good indication of the "track record" that is being extablished for 5744 in the 1876 chamberings.
"Unfortunately we do not have any specific lab tested data on these calibers.
(See notes 1.1 and 2.1below).
However, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.
Caliber: .45-60 Winchester (1.89”)
Case length: 1.89”
Case Capacity: ca 4.252cc/65.5grains of H2O
Barrel length: 26”
COL (max): 2.15”
Powder: Accurate -- 5744.
Bullet weight: 300-325 grains.
Start load: 22.0 grains (1250 – 1350 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 26.0 grains (1400 – 1500 Ft/p/sec).
Bullet weight: 350 grains.
Start load: 20.0 grains (1150 – 1250 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 24.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec).
Bullet weight: 400 grains.
Start load: 18.0 grains (1075 – 1175 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 22.0 grains (1200 – 1300 Ft/p/sec).
Caliber: .45-75 Winchester.
Case length: 1.895”
Case capacity: 5.189cc/79.92 grains of water
Pressure level: <18000 psi.
Barrel length: 28”
Powder: Accurate -- 5744.
Bullet weight: 300 grains.
Start load: 27.0 grains (1475 – 1575 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 31.0 grains (1650 – 1750 Ft/p/sec)
Bullet weight: 330 grains.
Start load: 24.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 28.0 grains (1500 – 1600 Ft/p/sec)
Bullet weight: 350 grains.
Start load: 21.0 grains (1100 – 1200 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 25.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec)
Bullet weight: 400 grains.
Start load: 17.0 grains (900 – 1000 Ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 21.0 grains (1100 – 1200 Ft/p/sec)
NOTES:
It’ important to note that:
Whenever Western Powders Inc do not test, and have actual data, on a particular caliber or caliber/bullet combination, we may in some cases provide some guideline. This information will be based on various procedures and calculations, or from other very reliable sources.
1. SAFETY is our prime concern therefore:
1.1. The loading data is conservative, especially regarding the minimum or start load to ensure a safe baseline to work from.
1.2. The safety margin built into the start load might be more than the customary 10%.
2. We strongly recommend.
2.1. To always start at the recommended minimum “START” load.
2.2. If at all possible, measure the velocity.
2.3. Contact us again with the velocity data, so that we can verify, and correlate with our calculated/estimated data. The data should also be compared, with the typical velocity levels accepted in the industry, for that particular caliber-bullet weight combination."
The last line is important, as it reinforces what we have been saying in regards to working up safe loads. Stay within the "typical velocity levels" for the caliber - BP velocities in this case, and verify what your doing with a chrono.
As mentioned Winchester LOADED smokeless powder loads for the the old 76 . i am sure they did not think , nor is their a shred of evidence that I am aware of that EVEN ONE of those smokelss loads EVER blew up a normal old 76 . To me that ends the debate , I said to me ! Ten X also loads smokeless powder loads for the 76 type ammo including the 50-95 . So to me shooting a low pressure smokeless load in a 76 is not putting rocket fuel in the gun , I dont think they had rocket fuel when Winchester first decided the gun they designed was safe for the smokeless powder loads they sold to be used in it . :DEagles, I am right here with ya pard!
As mentioned Winchester LOADED smokeless powder loads for the the old 76 .
Howdy Folks:
Haven't yet weighed in on this discussion, largely because of time constraints having limited my visiting some boards ....
Have now scanned through this lengthy .... and at times lively ..... discussion and, unless I've missed it, I've seen no mention of Trail Boss as a possibly suitable smokeless for loads for the 1876 clones.
My rifle is a Chaparral Arms NWMP carbine in 45-75, which the same time constraints (plus a lousy winter) have prevented me from firing yet, let alone trying to develop any loads. (Well, I did get out to the range once to try some prototype - and very conservative - fire-forming loads in ten of my partially re-formed .348 cases. Unfortunately, they were much too conservative, as I could see no discernable difference in the cases after firing ...... except for a lot of soot, that is! I was pleasantly surprised, however, with the very consistent impact point on the hundred yard berm, even with these 'mouse fart' loads, suggesting very good accuracy potential.
Anyway .... I have acquired a supply of Trail Boss powder to try out for .45 Colt cowboy action loads, and am wondering what the collective wisdom would be on trying it in loads for my .45-75? Has anyone experimented with it for loads for any of the 1876 clones?
Now I do realize that this powder was developed with "pistol caliber" cartridges in mind, but I also see that IMR show some suggested rifle loads, up to 45-70 (e.g. max. quoted load of 16.5 gr. behind a 300 gr. .458" LFP bullet producing 1285 fps at 20,900 CUP ... as a possible comparison for "potential" loads ifor .45-75. Min. quoted load for same bullet is 14 gr. producing 1199 fps at 14,300 CUP ..... http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php (http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php))
(I have also heard some mention of successful use of Trail Boss in such cavernous cases as theBritish .577/.450 Martini-Henry cartridge, believe it or not .....)
What say you, Gentlemen?
Also, can somebody point me to some basic fire-forming information, and also suggest some suitable fire-forming loads for .348 to .45-75 forming. (To be honest, my ten 'mouse fart' .45-75 lloads were my first ever attempt to fire-form any case ....)
Regarding Winchester factory smokeless cartridges for the '76, I only know of one that was ever listed in the catalogs...the .50-95, in 1896 & 1897. The 40 gr. smokeless charge was DuPont No. 1 Bulk Smokeless. Interesting that this loading used metal patched bullets.
Here's a pic of the box from the book One Hundred Years Of WINCHESTER Cartridge Boxes by Ray Giles and Dan Schuey.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/50-95.jpg)
w44wcf
Just stirring up the dust. ::)
I dropped by to say that I've posted no more on the subject due to priority responsibilities, namely, my mother. I hope to get to this soon.
I hope things are going well with you, Amigo. :)As well as can be expected. It is what it is... ;)