Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: rifle on June 06, 2007, 09:26:20 AM
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I heard someone named "Bootsie" can tell me something about the Belgium made Colt 1960 Centennial or any other Belgium made Colt cap&baller????? Can anyone give up some information on the Belgium Colt repos? I have a junk 1860 Army I'm rebuilding. Waiting for the machine man to get the new arbor turned out. That's where I will start. The gun will be a difficult one to reboiuld since it's been messed with over the last 47 years. :'( Thanks in advance Buds.
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If you don't have it, get David Chicoine's book "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West". There is a newer expanded edition, and a book on S&W Old West guns as well. His books are well worth having, as there is a lot of good information, including dimensions for arbors, wedges, screws, fitting and tuning of Colt types, S&W breaktops, etc., of both originals and clones. He compares Uberti and Colt, S&W, etc part by part.
The other indispensable book (shop manual) is by Jerry Kuhnhausen on the Colt Single Action, and if you shoot them, the Ruger Single Action as well. He also covers old and new models and some clones.
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Howdy Rifle and pards and pardnerettes interested in the fascinating history of Belgium made Colt licensed 1860 Armies. I posted some comments recently in www.thefiringline.com. Go to Forum, check "Harley Noldan's Institute for Firearms Research". There is a thread titled "1960 New Model Army" Centennial Colt with my 2 contrbutions of background information regarding the very subject.
The Centaur-Colt Armies are are no replicas but were made under a Colt license. They restarted the old machines in Liege/Belgium around 1960, hence the name "1960 New Model Army" but seem to have disappeared during the late 1970s. Quality of the pistols made in the 1960s and early 1970s is comparable to real Colts, better than 2nd Gen. Colts. Below is a pic of the 2 Centaur-Armies I have.
Bootsie
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Rifle: you may also want to search Centaur in STORM.
There is also a pard by the name of afa Andreas Prinz with a wealth of knowkedge about these Belgium Armies.
Bootsie
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Thank you for the info Bootsie and Flint. Much appreciated. You're both a gentleman and a scholar. ;D
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So, which one is the gentleman and which one is the scholar? :) ;) :D ;D
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I got one'a dem Belgium Colt '60 armies,,,FINE GUN !
BOught i on Bootsies recommendations,,fine GUN ! did I mention it was a FINE GUN !
Marshal Deadwood
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I ended up the Belgian Colt that Rifle asked about(got it from himself). And I got the one on Auction arms too. I have a question for Bootsie or Andreas,
When did Centaur change the logo on the guns. I don't know about the one I bought from Rifle, but the one on Auction Arms didn't have the Centaur logo or it has it and another logo. This logo looks lik a tree on it's side near one of the small crew heads(trigger Screw.maybe)
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Howdy Halfway Creek Charlie: pic of left side of my blued/case hardened pistol S/N 40xx, with all the markings.
Bootsie
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Halfway Creek Charlie: pic of left side of my stainless/fluted pistol S/N 123xx, will all the markings.
I have inspected some 20 Centaur/Colts only but did not find one without the Centaur logo.
How do your pistols's markings compare to the markings on my 2 pistols?
Same question to Andreas.
Bootsie
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Halfway Creek Charlie: Welcome to the Centaure Club
Just found 2 old articles published in Deutsches Waffenjournal (German Gun Journal) 1971 and 1973 respectively. These articles in German language (sorry guys) deal with the history of the Centaure pistol, the manufacturer(s) Fabriques D'Armes Unies De Liege, and the differences in specs (or lack thereof), compared to original Colt Armies from the 1860s.
They write Centaure with an "e" at the end.
Regarding comparability the authors claim there are none incl. threads of the screws. Differences mentioned are, however, in the rifling (Centaure = shallow) and the twist (Centaure = right), and in manufacturing processes like making of the rifling ("butter rifling?": correct term?) and in the finish, i. e. modern cynanide based case hardening and blueing.
Both articles only mention the model with the rebated cylinder, made from carbon steel, three srew frame, but cut for shoulderstock, with the correct cut in the backstrap. There is no hind regarding the fully fluted cylinder models in stainless steel, as well as the 5" barreled version. At this stage I cannot say for sure that this indicates that latter models were made after 1973 only.
So far I found no reference to relate serials to time of production.
Another German source just confirmed the compatibility and comparable quality of the Centaures to original Colts, as well as their superiority in terms of quality, compared to contemporary, i. e. 1960s and 1970s, Italian clones. Major Centaure parts were made of forged steel. However, that same source states that Uberti made significant advancements in the quality department: current production Ubertis (my interpretation: after the Beretta merger, use of CNC machinery) are comparable in terms of quality to Centaures.
Bootsie
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Bootsie, thanks for another leap forward in Belgian Colt data. That answers the question I had about the depth of rifling and twist on my example.
May I ask if the article mentioned an incompatability in nipple threads, as well as those for the frame screws? One of six nipples on mine is frozen in place with rust. I am following Rifle's advice to soak it in diesel fuel for a couple weaks before any more attempts to loosen it, and dread the thought of shearing it off, but that brings up the question of replacement nipples. I don't have a thread checker, and wondered if anyone might already know the thread size.
Halfway Creek Charlie, Bootsie kindly cleared up misgivings I had about the origin of some parts because of the odd proof and inspection markings. Mine turn out to be identical to his, and one also looks to me somewhat like a tree on its side. I had also asked him earlier in a PM if there was any information corelating serial number to year of manufacture, and there is no solid data. The number on mine is 2024; two others I know of are a bit higher. Does anyone know for sure what year actual production of the Centennial (1860-1960) Belgian Colt began? I recall seeing both 1959 and 1960.
To be sure, a fascinating corner of C&B pistols. Thanks for shedding more light.
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I haven't gotten them here yet, the markings I asked about are the ones near the bolt Screw and I see that your revolvers have the same markings...must be proofhouse markings.
I couldn't see the centaur in the picture of the one I bought on Auction Arms Just the proof markings near the screw on the frame.
Thanks you cleared that right up. I should have them today or tomorrow. I can't wait to see them.
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I have a rather pristine Belgium Colt '60Army.
I bought in on Bootsie's advice and haven't regretted it at all. Holding my Uberti in one hand and the Belgium in the other,,,the Belgium has an obvious 'more Colt feel'. 'More',as in the original Colts iv had the chance to examine.
Bootsie,,,from what I gather you are saying,,that the Beligum is indeed a 'real' Colt,,,as real in exact specs' to the original '60Armys ? More Colt than say a second gen' Colt ?
The frame markings on mine are,,,'left side',,a 'Colt pony' forward on the frame, and rearward,,,the 'fallen tree' (???) mark near one of the screw heads ? No right frame side markings at all. All of the serial numbers are 'under-neath' the revolver, and 'made in Beligum' on the bottom of the grip frame.
Btw,,,the Beligum shoots to POA slightly different than the Uberti...The Uberti placing the ball about 2" high at 20yards,,the Belgium placeing the ball about 1" low at 20 yards. That is not, to me, enough difference to be 'noteworthy' as both can be 'tweaked' to a rather dead center POA if I so wished.
The Beligum appears to have rather good 'black walnut' grips, and of course you guys are familiar with the Uberti walnut and the reddish tint.
I am super pleased with my Beligum.
Thanks Bootsie,,,you DA' MAN ! (as the youngsters would say now-days )
Marshal Deadwood
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2 corrections with regards to the 2 articles mentioned because the first set was bad quality fax copies, today I got good quality photocopies of the originals.
In the article from 1971 the author is refering to and showing pictures only of the Army with the rebated cylinder.
In the article from 1973 there are pics of Armies of rebated AND fully fluted cylinders. No reference to anything but carbon steel. In the text the author is refering to a high serial number of 51971!
The proper term for the Centaure rifling method is "button rifled".
W.T.: no specific mentioning of the specs of the nipples but a general statement "...even the thread of the screws is identical with the original". According to the 1971 article the new production was started 1960, hence "Centennial Model"
Marshal Deadwood: According to these 2 references parts will interchange with original Colts, i. e. 1st gen Armies. Centaures are Colt licensed pistols, not replicas. 2nd gen 1860 Armies did not exist in 1971 or 1973 but are available today for comparison. Most experts agree that 2nd gen Armies are of italian origin incl. metric threads. According to other German collectors I know and IMHO their quality (steel, surface hardness, surface finishing) does not stand up to Centaure. However, in all fairness and as mentioned somewhere else there was some pretty spotty qualtity control during the end of the Centaure Army production so please beware...
No frame markings on the right side of the frame and serials underneath the revolver plus "Made in Belgium" on the bottom of the grip frame, on the pistols I have seen, as MD pointed out.
I'd love to see one of you talented US cowboys or cowgirls doing a Richards conversion using a Centaure!
Bootsie
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OH that is tooo tempting Bootsie.......with me being "Da Conversion Man"....
Thanks for the updates. now if we could get AFA to post his knowledge too. it'make it complete.
We need to turn OCB loose with a couple. Hey Bill your ears burning?
I'll keep an eye out for the "Centennials" on the net.
Anyone know who got the last one on GB? it looked pretty nice too.
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If the Belgian is an exact copy, then the nipple thread is .225-32. That is not a standard thread size for anything, but last I knew Dixie Gun Works has a tap for that thread if you need to clean up your cylinder. DGW also has replacement nipples, as nothing made in Italy is going to work.
When Uberti made the parts for the Colt 2nd generation, they changed from a previously metric thread to #12-28 (same as Ruger), as it is at least an SAE thread, rather than reproduce the original Colt, also probably to help reduce fraudulantly aged fakes..
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Why, thankee kindly, Flint; I still got great hopes for the one that's stuck and the attendant threads.
The others were rusted over pretty good, but the holes cleaned up well with a .22 bronze bore brush & oil, spun slowly & carefully in an electric drill. I hope to get away without having to chase threads.
The rust seemed 'new'; cylinder looked like it had been fired fairly recently and not properly cleaned, though the barrel had been cleaned form the muzzle - it was apparent that the pistol hadn't been broken down, since solidified grease/oil had pretty well glued the bbl/loading ram to the frame.
Keepin' the fingers crossed...
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In 1973 I bought a Colt 1860 repro from the PX at Parris Island. It was marked Westerner Arms on top of the barrel and Made In Belgium on the bottom of the barrel and on the bottom of the grip (?). It had proof marks on the left side of the frame below the cylinder. I don't recall any other markings, not even the caliber.
It was a "civilian" model three screw without the stock cuts in the recoil shield, but did have a back strap cut for a stock. Back strap and trigger guard were both plated silver-colored, probably nickel.
It was the best .44 Army I ever saw in terms of fit and finish, accuracy, and reiability. Great color case hardening, but more muted than most.
It was stolen from me in 1994. I'd buy another in a heart beat, probably several more.
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Why not getting a special interest sub-group started under STORM, call it like FROC: FINE REVOLVERS OF CENTAURE, to collect hard facts and exchange experience related to these Belgium made Colts?!
Bootsie
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Why not getting a special interest sub-group started under STORM, call it like FROC: FINE REVOLVERES OF CENTAURE, to collect hard facts and exchange experience related to these Belgium made Colts?!
Bootsie
Second the motion! I want a low FROC number... ;D
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I thought about copying all the info from this thread to Word. and saving it. I wish AFA would respond to this thread, I'm sure he has lots of good Info to share.
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Got The Auction Arms Belgian Colt today and it is nicer than it was described, if it has been shot, probably no more than a cylinder if that, cause there is still blule in the chambers and that usually goes fast! Nice fit and finish, I'd say possibly 90-905% gun.
The s/n is just over 1/3 of the Quoted 60,000 production number, 18,4XX. It is the rebated engraved cylinder 3 screw cut for shoulder stock model.
Like Rifle says the hammer is crosshatched so you can thumbcock it.
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Why, oh why didn't I bid on that puppy when it kept closing with no bids!! ??? And a reserve of $200!! :'(
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Heck I didn't even see it the first two times you talked about it going thru the auction or i'd have saved some money...maybe...LOL!
I gotta get off here and go play with the new Army.
There'll be oothers coming along I betcha, or at least I hope, Anyone know who got the last one on Gunbroker? it went for$265.00
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Wow! I bought an 1860 Colt reproduction IN Belgium (SHAPE Rod and Gun Club) in about 1972. It has the "Centaur" on it and is a great shooter. The hammer spring is a real pain in the thumb, though. Mine is cut for a shoulder stock, but I never got one. It is in perfect condition, although I have changed nipples on it a couple of times.
I have been thinking about seeing if I could get a conversion cylinder for it, but perhaps that would be a bad idea. Are these particularly valuable today? I think that I should just lighten the spring and make this a part of my second-line CAS defense -"Frontier" or whatever it is called now.
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CE,
They are becoming so. They are sought after in Europe per Bootsie, and they are made of carbon steel, better than the Italian steels.
I don't know what conversion would fit it to begin with, but I'm sure one could be special built(OOOH lotsa Bucks). I'm gonna leave mine C & B.
My hammer spring in this one from Auction Arms will lift a dump truck bed, but not for long, as I'll lighten it some. I love the crosshatching or knurling on the hammer, makes it easy to thumbcock it even with the dumptruck spring.
Where did you find the nipples and are they US threads or metric? I'd guess if licensed by Colt they'd be US threads.
IMHO If you got one keep it, if you don't have one or three get them, they are just going to increase in value after the word spreads about them.
I got to shoot and handle the one Smokin_Gun sold to Rifle some time back. His was the first one I'd ever seen that I can recollect, but being a buckskinner in the Civile War Centennial time I probalby have seen them before but they were "too New" for my time period then.
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I wonder about the comparison of the Belgian Colts and the "new" Uberti/Beretta/Benneli Colts. Uberti has started to make forged frames for Remingtons but I haven't heard about anything forged in the Colt repos. The Uberti's didn't seem to need forged frames that I've seen. Now and then one with a loose arbor pops up so maybe they could use a stronger frame. What I liked about the Belgian Colt was the harder steel of the barrel and cylinder. The Italians have been making the danged cylinders of the Colts like clay. The bolt springs have to be weakened so the bolt doesn't deform the cylinders. The bolt spring in that Belgian that I've sent Charlie was like a bear trap. So was the mainspring(no blow back problems there). The barrel wedge slot was in prime shape as were the cylinder notches. The steel could take the punishment. Too bad the Italians can't realize the metal they use may be good for manufacturing machining but not for longevity. One thing I advise,especially with Piettas) is to take a new gun apart and loosen the bolt spring at least 1/4 turn before the action has ever been cycled. The metal is so soft on those Pietta cylinders that the very first snaps of the bolt into the cylinder deforms metal. The Piettas also have the bolt head hit the notches too closer to the edge and metal is pushed into the edge effectively making the notch narrow and it becomes too small for the bolt head to get into the notch properly. Well, no such problems with the Belgian Colts. They do have harder steel. Like a gun should have. We should all petition the Italians to use some form of harder steel in the barrels and cylinders of the cap&ballers. The same steel they use in the cartridge guns. That way the Ubertis and the Piettas would be more evenly comparable to original Colts and Belgian Colt licensed Colts. I mean, why should we , in this day and age, have to eat crow and accept guns with soft sub grade steel? The Italians should get thier stuff together with the steel of the cap&ballers. Side note.....there was a metalurgy company some time ago that advertised the ability to harden the steel of the cap&ballers. The whole gun hardened. Wish they were still around. Or a company like them. I'd have the barrels and cylinders of all my sub grade(compared to the Belgian Colts) Italian Colts hardened. I'd like to know how to do it myself also. Can't get any answers from Italy about the type of steel used in the cap&ballers. Not even when conferring with A. Pietta(Alchemista on the forums). Side note......referring to mention of converting a Belgian Colt to cartridge.....the barrels groove diameter of the one I measured was .445. That's a small bullet to load in a 45 case. A heeled bullet(Charlie knows about those) mould would have to be made that had the heel that fit a 44 case and an exposed part of the bullet at least .445. So.....since a Uberti cylinder( I should have swapped the Belgian cylinder for a Uberti in the gun I sent to Charlie :o) works in a Belgian even though the Uberti percussion cylinder would be at least .450 chambers and the drop-in conversion cylinder from R&D would have at least .452 chambers throats. The barrels of the Belgians would be too small for a commercially made conversion cylinder and a little small for an Italian percussion cylinder. The percussion Italian cylinder could be used in a Belgian shooting balls and work fine I'd imagine(balls swagged to .450 in the Italian percussion chambers)even if the ball was .005 larger than the grooves of the Belgian barrel. I plan on using an Italian cylinder in the junker Belgian I'm going to restore. The original Belgian cylinder has notches that are about as battered as they get. Goes to show ya even a Belgian can be abused. The arbor is loose in my old gun and the barrel was filed off crooked at the bottom lug of the barrel and several other negative things. The arbor bent down at the wedge slot part is another. Needs a new arbor. The recoil shields ring that keeps the caps off the frame so they don't hit and chainfire is deformed by the cylinder hitting it also. Almost as bad as it gets for a cap&baller. I'll fix it though since I like it for some reason. Just smacks of "authenticity". I'll fix it and sell it to Charlie. ;D
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I purchased mine new in Belgium in about 1972. It has the Centaur on it. It is a fine shooting weapon. The hammer spring will about break your thumb, though! It shoots great groups at 25 yards. I need to make a holster for it. I only recently found out that it is a "real" Colt! It was worth every penny of the $75 I paid for it (as I recall it was no more than that.) Never had a holster to fit it, so there is no wear on it. I was trying to see if someone made a conversion cylinder for it, but now I think that perhaps I should keep it "as is" and just shoot it.
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I've read this thread with interest and have corresponded with Boot... ah, Long John Wolf and WT.
I have had some experience with Belgians 1860's...
Years ago in the 80's & 90's we would have about 1/2 doz. or so of these from the Gun rental houses on the prop trailer.
One in particular, I recall had Ivory looking grips put on it , from a Hubley Texan 45 (1860 toy cap gun ).
This Belgian was used on the film The Sacketts , the two piece grips were not a perfect fit but close enough for a holstered prop.
I was not closely involved with the Prop Trailer on the N&S trilogy , but I'll bet they had some.
On Glory we had some, but the Guns used by Matthew Broderick & C. Elways were Uberti , mostly the Belgians remain unused or perhaps as a sidearm for some bit part player... but Reenactors supplied their own guns.
I remember seeing some on Ironclads I don't know if Kelly & Ray (prop-masters) issued them .
By this time, these Belgian's had seen rough handling, seldom fired, but played with by the player, dry fired , dropped , they'd get wet , seldom if ever cleaned.
They were mostly loose, or broken springs , didn't matter they were just holster props. ::)
If there were some on the "Gettysburg" shoot , I don't recall , though "Ironclads" was two years later, so I'm guessing Kelly had some. Maybe on God & Generals too.
The hand guns used on "Into the West" were all from Taylor's & Uberti's & were purchased,
because by this time, the rental guns were really bad.
My point is, a goodly number of these were purchased by Western Costume & Stembridge..
They would be part of the Gun rental package....
as a side note , there are at times a call in the script (orders) for "Safe" rubber guns ( close hand to hand stuff ) many Enfields & Springfield's , a few Sharps and lots of bayonets are cast from the real deal.
I recall a rubber Belgian , you can see the Made in Belgian in the butt , where it was cast from the real pistol.
I have the Rubber Flintlock SXS shotgun from "Alamo the Price of Freedom " used by Casey Biggs as Travis....as he died swinging it on camera.
This thread has piked my interest ... I would not mind finding one in good condition.... 8)
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I'll keep an eye out for one. The one on Auction arms right now is a bit rough and I'll not bid on it as it has to be transferred through an FFl due to idiotcy. Is that a word? or just a state of mind?
Try to find one that is 4 digits or less, I believe these are better made than the later guns. JMO!
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Let me through in my 2 cents:
Today we assume that all variations of the Centaures without prefixes are numbered consecutively. We have a few fixes now to correlate S/Ns to year of production:
#1 is from 1960 when production began
#2484 was made early 1963
"Crown over R" mark was discontinued 1968
#7723 is the lowest number in my survey without the "Crown over R"
# 11298, 11431 and 1298 are from 1972
Highest S/N currently known from a publication is #51971. I assume that Fabriques D'Armes unies discontiued production of the Centaures around 1975. Incidentally, since one week we have proof that production of their remaining blackpowder line of flint lock and percussion pistols, shotguns and rifles was terminated early summer 1977!
Reports on quality issues are from the period 1972/73 but personally I have not seen one revolver with workmanship and/or function problems that can be traced back to the factory.
Currently our surveys includes completed data sheets from S/N 38 (lowest) to 18408 (highest), plus 1 pistol with a "C" prefix. At this point I am not in a position to correlate the latter one to a year of production but this specific gun has the "Crown over R" mark.
This indicates it was made before 1968.
Here is to say thanks a lot for your great support & rest assured there is more fascinating information about these Belgian Colts to surface.
Did I tell you Fabriques d'Armes were selling powder flasks and bullet molds for the revolvers? The former were made for them by well-known English Dixon & Sons. They feature clearer motifs (compared to Italian flasks), the marking is COLTS PATENTS as on the originals.
The bullet moulds have cavaties for one round and on conical ball. They were regularly made from blued steel but could be had in brass like the Italian ones.
Long Johns Wolf
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LJW,
Thanks for the info update. I emailed Cooleme Ed and asked if you had sent him a questionaire yet.
My 2999 S/N is then between 1963 and 1968 because it has the Crown over R proof. My later gun is the latest you have the 18403
It does have some anomalies that the early(1968 or before) doesn't, but nothing terrible, just a couple finishing boo-boo's about the Centaur and a hand slot in the frame that looks like the inside of a squirrel tree, due to a forging malfunction or amachining mishap or possibly both. I have that fixed, also there was a machining bur on the back side of the slot that made the handspring want to catch upon and jump. I smoothed that out too. There is one nipple that is offset in the cylinder, but it does no harm. The rest of the gun is fine.
However, that being said, the later S/N gun shoots as good as the early(1968 or before) gun. I like them both. I'll probably buy another if it is in the condition of either of mine.
Did I relate that I have a copy of Edwards Book with the Chapter about these Centaur Colts in it.
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I was just reading William B. Edwards"Civil war Guns", about theCentaur/Centennial replica's. He states that the cylinders were plain up to about S/N 1400 then all had the Naval engagement scene. S/n'd from 1 up # screw frame cut for Stock and notched toe on butt.
He states that the civilian models were s/n'd from 1 on up but prefixed with a C (C1,C2, C3, etc) and that the cylinders were engraved with the simple engraving without the fine detail, and that the first 500 of these guns had the "Engaged 16 May 1843" but that they quit because some US gun collectors (Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc BOD) were afraid that these could be faked and sold as "real" Colts. These Civilian models had no cuts for stock, not toes in the butt and that the gripframes were silvered.
He adds that in the spring of 1961 the Fluted model first appeared S/N in their own series again starting at 1 with the F prefix. William also relates that F1 was presented to him with a butt stock. He later sold it at a gun show in Ohio.
So this very simply tells us that each variation has it's own S/N range beginning at 1 and going up, with or without a prefix letter.
So it appears that the one cylinder I have seen with the non detailed engraving should be a C prefixed numbered gun and have or not the "Engaged 16 May 1843"(first 500) and........Silver plated Gripstrap and TG.
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Halfway Creek Charlie and the campfire: I was enthusiastic at first when I read the Edwards book but remember his info/knowledge is from 1960/1961 because the book is from 1962.
It may well be that different variations had separate serial number blocks, with or without a prefix, during that early time.
It remains to be seen if this can be substantiated when more Centaures are inspected.
However, only 1 pistol surfaced so far, with a prefix (C). None of the fluted ones from which I have the data sheet has a prefix (F), my stainless fluted one does not have a prefix, the Marshall variation with the 5" barrel recently inspected does not have a prefix.
Highest S/N with rebated/plain cylinder is #12371 (data sheet)!
My current assumption regarding serial numbers after digestion of Bellingrath (1978), Edwards (1962), Modrau/Stavenhagen (1973), Stammel (1973) and Tyler (1972) is:
Pistols without prefix are numbered consecutively, no matter what the variation: lowest S/N 38 (data sheet), highest S/N 18408 (data sheet), highest S/N published 51971.
Pistols with prefix are numbered in separate blocks, beginning with that prefix.
Regarding rebated/plain vs. rebated/engraved cylinders: the majority of the European Centaures reported in the survey has the plain cylinder whereas the marjority of those reported from the US either has the proprietary or the Colt-type naval scene engraving. No fluted cylinder variation was reported from the US so far but quite a number from this side of the Atlantic, with 8" and 5" barrel.
We still have the pending question if Centaures are possibly numbered differently on your side and this side of the big pond.
So, early and preliminary findings of the survey are promising. We learnt a lot already but we have a long way to go and will learn more about this issue with every completed data sheet mailed to me.
Hopefully more solid conclusions can be drawn once the responses from my article in THE SHOOTIST (later this year) and in GUNS OF THE OLD WEST have been analyzed.
If one of you pards owns a Centaure or knows a pard who has one send me a PM and I will gladly provide you with the data sheet for compilation and analysis.
Long Johns Wolf
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Rifle: according to the 2007 Uberti cataloque I obtained a couple of weeks ago their following pistols are listed of having forged frame and/or barrel:
Colt Paterson: frame & barrel
Colt Walker: frame & barrel
Colt 1848 Dragoon: frame & barrel
Colt 1862 Pocket Navy - 1862 Police: frame & barrel
Colt 1848 Baby Dragoon - Wells Fargo - 1849 Pocket: frame & barrel
Colt 1851 Navy: frame & barrel
Colt 1860 Army: frame & barrel
Colt 1861 Navy: frame & barrel
Remington 1858 New Improved Model Navy - Army: frame (but casted for stainless steel version; 1858 Target Revolver Carbine: frame casted steel!)
Long Johns Wolf
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I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this.
But What Edwards wrote about in 1962 was the Centennial Arms Guns marked Centennial (Arms)it is under this heading that he stated the S/N info. I truly believe that there are two different animals we are trying to collect info on. One the Centennial marked guns(probably only US imports) and the Centaur marked guns that are probably NOT US imports. I can fully understand these having different S/N 's, prefixes or not, and models for both respective markings.
I think we need to seperate these two markings and chase it that way. Centennial and Centaur. I think we will find that the s/n will not overlap between the maker marques. Then again I could be all wet. LOL
Me I'm looking for that F! Fluted Army with the buttstock that was sold in Ohio between spring 1961 and the time (before 1962) that Edwards wrote and published.......Do the phrase "Needle in a Haystack" ring a bell....LOL
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Well Halfway Creek Charlie, I don't want to frustrate you but...we talk about the same animal.
"Centaure" is how the Europeans (me included) call the Belgian Colts made by Fabriques d'Armes Unies de Liege. They call them Centaure because of the Centaur logo on the left forward side of the frame.
Most of these Belgian Colts are marked "CENTENNIAL" on the barrel, either "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" CENTENNIAL TRADE MARK, or CENTENNIAL TRADE MARK "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" (with our without CHICAGO U.S.A.): I believe that's why my US pards call them "Centennials" or "Centennial Colts".
A few fully fluted specimen inspected have the barrel marking "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" only, i. e. without the CENTENNIAL TRADE MARK, one 5" Marshall with fully fluted cylinder has no marking on the barrel at all, see attached pic (but no such guns surfaced in the survey from US pards, so far).
Based on information collected I believe that Centennial Arms Corp. of Chicago was named after the pistol and not the other way round.
I agree with you that we should define a common name for the pistol to avoid misunderstandings.
But what all these Belgian Colts produced by Fabriques d'Armes Unies de Liege have visibly in common is the stylized centaur on the left forward side of the frame.
I wish you luck for your chase of #F1 with the matching stock. Please, send me pics for inspection. I have been told there is one factory engraved Belgian Colt, in the white finish, rebated cylinder, with silver (plated) centaur emblem in the grip, floating around at a German auction house. It is said to be proof tested but never fired...X fingers that we both succeed in our hunt.
Long Johns Wolf
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OK that un befuddles me some. So the European and the US models are marked Centennial (or nothing) and the Centaur is just a "Call Name" for the same guns....Clear as mud, but clear now.
Thanks. We'll keep looking i did ask for the S/n of the Centennial on Auction Arms. if We get nothing else. I'm tempted to bid even if I have to pay an FFL transfer fee if it goes cheap.
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I've read this thread with interest and have corresponded with Boot... ah, Long John Wolf and WT.
I have had some experience with Belgians 1860's...
Years ago in the 80's & 90's we would have about 1/2 doz. or so of these from the Gun rental houses on the prop trailer.
One in particular, I recall had Ivory looking grips put on it , from a Hubley Texan 45 (1860 toy cap gun ).
This Belgian was used on the film The Sacketts , the two piece grips were not a perfect fit but close enough for a holstered prop.
I was not closely involved with the Prop Trailer on the N&S trilogy , but I'll bet they had some.
On Glory we had some, but the Guns used by Matthew Broderick & C. Elways were Uberti , mostly the Belgians remain unused or perhaps as a sidearm for some bit part player... but Reenactors supplied their own guns.
I remember seeing some on Ironclads I don't know if Kelly & Ray (prop-masters) issued them .
By this time, these Belgian's had seen rough handling, seldom fired, but played with by the player, dry fired , dropped , they'd get wet , seldom if ever cleaned.
They were mostly loose, or broken springs , didn't matter they were just holster props. ::)
If there were some on the "Gettysburg" shoot , I don't recall , though "Ironclads" was two years later, so I'm guessing Kelly had some. Maybe on God & Generals too.
The hand guns used on "Into the West" were all from Taylor's & Uberti's & were purchased,
because by this time, the rental guns were really bad.
My point is, a goodly number of these were purchased by Western Costume & Stembridge..
They would be part of the Gun rental package....
as a side note , there are at times a call in the script (orders) for "Safe" rubber guns ( close hand to hand stuff ) many Enfields & Springfield's , a few Sharps and lots of bayonets are cast from the real deal.
I recall a rubber Belgian , you can see the Made in Belgian in the butt , where it was cast from the real pistol.
I have the Rubber Flintlock SXS shotgun from "Alamo the Price of Freedom " used by Casey Biggs as Travis....as he died swinging it on camera.
This thread has piked my interest ... I would not mind finding one in good condition.... 8)
Now Major, please make my day and confirm that the 1860 Clint Easwood uses in THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES is a Centaure?!
Long Johns Wolf
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I'll try ;) Eddie Aiona was the property master on most of Eastwood's films including Unforgiven.
Josie Wales was made in 1975 and I know there were dozens of Belgian 1960 Centennials still at the prop houses.
That said, I know the guns Clint used were purchased by the Art/prop dept. I believe they were massaged and defarbed Uberti's .
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The Walkers were ASM, but the Army? Make my day, Major!
Long Johns Wolf
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Hi, I'm new to this but I found this site while searching for info on a Belgian 1860 "New Model 1960 Army" I bought recently. It is numbered F7 matching cased set with stock (also number F7). I must say it is about the most gorgeous revolver own now. (http://"C:\Documents and Settings\mark\My Documents\My Pictures\Kodak Pictures\2007-09-05\100_1951.JPG")
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Welcome aboard, and congratulations on the F7 Cased set with the shoulder stock. these sets are few and far between. I own two Beldian Colts neither cased, but both real nice.and I feel the same way. I shoot mine occaisionally at our CAS matches.
I hope you will allow Long Johns Wolf to send you a questionnaire on your Belgian Cased set.
We are in the midst of collecting any and all information that we can on these revolvers.
Also Please post some pictures of your set.
How Cool is that! 1-10....a 20!
I'm looking for F1 that was sold in Ohio at a gun show before 1962.
Your pistol has to have been made in 1961 from the S/N as F1 was the first one made in 1961.
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Welcome to this board. Here you meet the enthusiastic owners of FROC i. e. Fine Revolvers Of Centaure. F7, 1961, what a find. And with matching shoulder stock. Congratulations.
Please, be kind enough to let me have your private email address that I can mail the questionaire as I am doing a little research project on these Belgian Colts. I would love to have the specific data of your pistols in that survey.
And for the rest of you Belgian Colt/Centaure/Centennial Colt enthusiasts here is my latest find, a factory engraved Centaure S/N 11851, probably from 1972.
Long Johns Wolf
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Heres a picture of F7. I hope this works
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Howdy to the campfire: regarding my study one of the German pards let me have the copy of a factory letter relating to S/N 12106 confirming that it left Fabriques d'Armes Unies de Liege July 7, 1972. But the interesting thing is the little note as part of the letterhead saying "fondées 1796" i. e. founded 1796. See below. They are an old gun maker, really old. Isn't that amazing?
Long Johns Wolf
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Hello pards. Thought you would like to know where we stand with the project. Thanks to your input I could just complete a list of models & variations of the Belgian Colts. Per today at least 9.., see pic.
If you want that info as a word document sent me a PM.
If you have one of these Belgians and care to let me have her data to be included in this research project send me your email address per PM, please. And I'll mail the questionaire.
Long Johns Wolf
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I love these historical back-stories to film firearms. Thanks a decade-later, Major.
By this time, these Belgian's had seen rough handling, seldom fired, but played with by the player, dry fired , dropped , they'd get wet , seldom if ever cleaned.
They were mostly loose, or broken springs , didn't matter they were just holster props. ::)
My point is, a goodly number of these were purchased by Western Costume & Stembridge..
They would be part of the Gun rental package....
Did they look as beat as this one?
(https://i.imgur.com/0zwwcGK.jpg)
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or worst ..... one I recall must of been used as a hammer
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I finally have an acceptable input. A good friend recently acquired a pair of Centaur 1860s. He elected as he should offer them up for me to look at. "Look At" for means whip out a screwdriver and look inside.
One gun looked "OK" but was non-functional. The other looked "rough" but cycled. Taken apart, gun # 1 had no correct internal lock parts. The cobbled up parts would not cause the gun to function. The #2 gun had several Pietta lock parts and would function (just) and I wouldn't be too inclined to shoot it. I assessed both guns as useable for "major parts" only. It's a shame.
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I've read this thread with interest and have corresponded with Boot... ah, Long John Wolf and WT.
I have had some experience with Belgians 1860's...
Years ago in the 80's & 90's we would have about 1/2 doz. or so of these from the Gun rental houses on the prop trailer.
One in particular, I recall had Ivory looking grips put on it , from a Hubley Texan 45 (1860 toy cap gun ).
This Belgian was used on the film The Sacketts , the two piece grips were not a perfect fit but close enough for a holstered prop.
I was not closely involved with the Prop Trailer on the N&S trilogy , but I'll bet they had some.
On Glory we had some, but the Guns used by Matthew Broderick & C. Elways were Uberti , mostly the Belgians remain unused or perhaps as a sidearm for some bit part player... but Reenactors supplied their own guns.
I remember seeing some on Ironclads I don't know if Kelly & Ray (prop-masters) issued them .
By this time, these Belgian's had seen rough handling, seldom fired, but played with by the player, dry fired , dropped , they'd get wet , seldom if ever cleaned.
They were mostly loose, or broken springs , didn't matter they were just holster props. ::)
If there were some on the "Gettysburg" shoot , I don't recall , though "Ironclads" was two years later, so I'm guessing Kelly had some. Maybe on God & Generals too.
The hand guns used on "Into the West" were all from Taylor's & Uberti's & were purchased,
because by this time, the rental guns were really bad.
My point is, a goodly number of these were purchased by Western Costume & Stembridge..
They would be part of the Gun rental package....
as a side note , there are at times a call in the script (orders) for "Safe" rubber guns ( close hand to hand stuff ) many Enfields & Springfield's , a few Sharps and lots of bayonets are cast from the real deal.
I recall a rubber Belgian , you can see the Made in Belgian in the butt , where it was cast from the real pistol.
I have the Rubber Flintlock SXS shotgun from "Alamo the Price of Freedom " used by Casey Biggs as Travis....as he died swinging it on camera.
This thread has piked my interest ... I would not mind finding one in good condition.... 8)
as an interesting side note ...I had responded to this thread over 12 years ago,
the Rubber Flintlock SXS shotgun from "Alamo the Price of Freedom " was lost in a barn fire (prop room ) in 2012 )
I still have the Colt Second Gen. 1860's used by Chamberlain- "Gettysburg" ( Jeff Daniels ) and Alex Hyde-White in "Ironclads" and Broderick in "Glory"
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I finally have an acceptable input. A good friend recently acquired a pair of Centaur 1860s. He elected as he should offer them up for me to look at. "Look At" for means whip out a screwdriver and look inside.
One gun looked "OK" but was non-functional. The other looked "rough" but cycled. Taken apart, gun # 1 had no correct internal lock parts. The cobbled up parts would not cause the gun to function. The #2 gun had several Pietta lock parts and would function (just) and I wouldn't be too inclined to shoot it. I assessed both guns as useable for "major parts" only. It's a shame.
Ah My Good Monsieur Coffin
Perhaps your friend ought to put them up here for bidding?
I myself would gladly offer him $10...
Yhs
Prof (frugal) Marvel
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My 1960/1860. Conversion by; Hoof-Hearted
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I bought this one at a Local Gun Show Several Years ago for, $175.00. Sold it last year for $450.00. The piece is New in the box with the original packing wrap. A Collector has it now. I doubt it will ever be fired.
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I finally have an acceptable input. A good friend recently acquired a pair of Centaur 1860s. He elected as he should offer them up for me to look at. "Look At" for means whip out a screwdriver and look inside.
One gun looked "OK" but was non-functional. The other looked "rough" but cycled. Taken apart, gun # 1 had no correct internal lock parts. The cobbled up parts would not cause the gun to function. The #2 gun had several Pietta lock parts and would function (just) and I wouldn't be too inclined to shoot it. I assessed both guns as useable for "major parts" only. It's a shame.
Wow, that's too bad. I recall when you (CM) posted about yer friend getting those at a reasonable dollar figure, wishin that a gun buyin event like the Centaur's would come my way. Was even bidding on a Centaur last summer on GB that I should have upped my bid a few $$ more and might have gotten it. Of course not all of them are like your friends, we'd here more from Long Johns Wolf about it I'm sure. Still bad news on the two your friend got. CC