Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Driftwood Johnson on June 05, 2007, 10:16:01 AM
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Howdy
I was talking to another BP shooter the other day and he related this story to me. It happened recently to a man that works for him.
The shooter was outdoors on a very dry day. He was preparing to transfer Black Powder from the original container to a powder horn for muzzle loading. He had a full one pound can of Goex FFg in his hands. As he unscrewed the cap, the instant he pulled the cap away from the can, the entire can exploded. He was thrown to the ground with burns on his arms and chest. Part of his thumb was blown away, either from the force of the explosion or from the metal shrapnel of the can.
As far as I know, other than the loss of part of his thumb the victim is OK.
I do not know exactly what to attribute this incident to. My friend told me that he checked the humidity for that day on his home weather station, and it was very dry that day, only 23%. There was no open flame or heat source any where around. Given that the day was so dry, I have to suspect a static discharge.
Be careful out there pards.
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I think we have an extensive thread going about black powder and static.
Goex is coated with graphite. It CANNOT generate a static charge.
I am always wary of FOAF (Friend-of-a-friend) reports. Ask your friend for the name and address of his friend. I would be interested in contacting him directly to verify this story. If verified, I would see to it that it was published or other distributed nationwide.
Grizzle Bear
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I've known this shooter for years. I trust him. He was very careful to tell me the story in exact detail. If he says it happened to a guy that works for him, I believe him. You can't fake a partially blown away thumb.
As far as whether or not BP can generate a charge, I never said it can. I said it was a very dry day and when the can was opened it exploded.
Let's not be so quick to say what can and what cannot happen. It has become fashionable recently on boards like this to condemn as 'myths' any thought that there might be a problem with static electricity and BP.
Let's not forget that educated people were once convinced the earth was flat, and man would never fly.
All I am saying is let's keep an open mind, and use caution when handling BP.
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Howdy, Pards,
This business of this "can't happen" or that "can't happen", reminds me of a couple of things... The first is a cartoon by the late, great Bill Mauldin, in his book, "Up Front with Willy and Joe", from WWII. A soldier is standing in front of a desk behind which is a major. The soldier is holding his helmet with one hand inside of it, with the fingers poking out of several holes in the helmet. The caption (the major speaking) reads, "Nonsense! S-2 reported that machine gun silenced hours ago! And stop wiggling your fingers at me!"
The other thing is the instances of blown guns using some very light charges of smokeless powders in large-capacity pistol cases. Just can't happen... must have been a double charge, or a double bullet, dispite assertions by two witness who checked the loads as they were being assembled. (Unfortunately, the instrumentation available isn't sensitive enough to pick up incipient overpressure. Only the few instances of ballistic labs with very specialized equipment have been able to pick up a rare overpressure phenomenon due to ignition delay. See my chapter on the subject in my book,"Trailrider's Guide to Cowboy Action Shooting[tm]".
Also, the bumble bee was "proven" to be unable to fly...before wind tunnels and high-speed photography showed how it is possible. ;)
The point is, that there CAN be certain conditions where something occurs that, though RARE, can happen. Service stations ignored the problem of static electricity for years! Now, virtually EVERY pump has a warning about discharging oneself before starting the pump going!
So I'd catagorize this as a "possible"! What other explaination does anyone have...if the description is accurate? (And, yes, second-hand info isn't as reliable as first-hand, but that doesn't mean it is totally UNreliable.)
It just might be PRUDENT to ground oneself AND the container before picking up the can or removing the top, etc. If nothing else, stick a metal ramrod into the ground and hang onto it.
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I try to be objective in these matters. We need a primary source however. My first thought is was he smoking (cigarette, etc.)? Until we have more concrete data I am of the same opinion as Grizzle Bear.
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As I said originally, there was no open flame or heat source nearby. No, he was not smoking.
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Considering the detailed discription in this report, there are no reasons to not believe what happened.
Another cause, outside of static is powder grains caught between the threads of the cap and can being crushed and ignited by friction as the cap was turned. That thought is scarry as BP containers are traditionally metal. :(
Until we get more information, all we know for certain is that a can of black powder exploded. Be it due to friction or static electricity we'll not know until an investigation can duplicate the conditions.
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Just for the sake of discusssion only...
Perhaps the deux ex machina we are looking for can be found in this sentence, "As he unscrewed the cap, the instant he pulled the cap away from the can, the entire can exploded." OK, "...the cap...pulled the cap away from the can...exploded." it would be interesting to know if the 'cap' was the original screw-on cap from the original can of GOEX or an after-market pouring spout cap purchased from any number of vendors? The reason I mention this is that in the 1970-80's era of Buckskinning many machinists and hobbyists were trying to take it up another notch and figure out ways to get powder from the can into a horn faster, some were unique as in a brass tube brasied to the original cap, some had a rubber stopper, some had a screw-on fitting like that of a metal spring-loaded measuring tube, etc. Most all worked and the ones that did the best job have been refined and are still on the market today.
There are stories like this around the campfires about caps and kabooms, static charges, etc., etc., etc. At the 1983 NMLRA 50th Anniversary Shoot I saw a seasoned 'Skinner, one who was said that everybody looked up to, take a full can of GOEX 2F, unscrew the original cap and put on a homemade brass funnel cap then hold the whole thing up to his ear so he could 'hear' the powder fill his powder horn from the can. Most of us backed away fast when he did this as he was standing outside next to his Tipi campfire with hot morning coffee brewing, although it didn't seem to be a problem to him, the rest of us took a 'pass' on coffee. The gent I was staying with said he had been doing it that way for years, again, it seemed to be the way to get the job done faster at the time.
So, maybe the culprit is indeed the 'cap' and if it would be possible to find out if it was the original or a redo or a newer redo with a plastic funnel and sealing cap as seen in Cabela's, etc., then the next logical step would be to contact the kind folks at GOEX and report the incident as that particular batch/lot may have an anomoly to it that is conducive to sparking via certain methods of conveyance from can to powder horn, it might also happen if run through a modern BP setup on a press, Lyman 55, etc., most certainly something to consider.
Best regards and good funneling!
'Ol Gabe
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What we have is a second hand REPORT of an explosion from a reliable source. I'm with Griz, get the name of the victim and hear him tell it & show his thumb. We're dealing with hearsay. Not admissable in a court.
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Ithink it could happen!
Iwas loading a 1841 mississippi rifle with loose powder once when the charge went off as I was dumping it down the barrel.
Luckly for me I wasn't hurt . just singed my eye brows a bit and blew the cigar out of my mouth.
Can't figger out what made it go off like that ???
Willy-
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Over here in the U.K. most if not all B/P comes in polythene tubs & plastic caps.
I have seen cardboard tubs with the powder inside in foil packages. All come in 1/2 or 1 kilo sizes.
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Ithink it could happen!
Iwas loading a 1841 mississippi rifle with loose powder once when the charge went off as I was dumping it down the barrel.
Luckly for me I wasn't hurt . just singed my eye brows a bit and blew the cigar out of my mouth.
Can't figger out what made it go off like that ???
Willy-
Now that may be an ole BP tale from way back I missed along the way. But I done sprayed coffee all o'er the monitor. It'll clean up. Good ta start the day laffin'.
Thanks, Willy
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Outside, dry day, Hot??, was there a heat source? Did anyone make any remarks about static electricity before or after the incident? All answers we may not get. But black powder is an EXPLOSIVE. In free air it still EXPLODES when ignited. We are still need to always be aware that the genuine Holy Black we enjoy can blow up.
Rule 1. No smoking around the stuff.
Rule 2. Have on hand only the amount needed for the immediate project.
Rule 3. No smoking around the stuff.
Rule 4 Keep your work area CLEAN.
Rule 5. No smoking around the stuff.
Rule 6. Wear safety glasses when handling Genuine Powder.
Rule 7 No smoking around the stuff.
Did I mention "No Smoking around the stuff"?? That's the number one source of ignition in most accidents involving unplanned ignition of reloading materials. Remember always, life is unsafe and our existence here is only temporary. It's our job to extend that existence as long as practical. Unplanned explosions are detrimental to prolonged existence.
DD-DLoS
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Dick , did you say something about smoking ??? ;D
Mason
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I am not so sure of what the experts say anymore. I had a flashover/chain fire last Sat with my 1860 Army. The ignition occured at the front of the cylinder where I had seated a 454 ball in a nominal 449 chamber, cutting a nice ring. No wad and no over ball lube because everyone knows that flashovers occur when the flash enters the uncapped nipple on an unfired charge.
The chamber that flashed had an unmoved and unfired cap after the explosion occured.
The experts may be right but I'm going to use an additional sealing method from now on.
A foolish friend that we nicknamed the "Bomber" used to take two short 3/4" bolts and screw them into a nut from opposite sides compressing a 3/4" by 1" load of BP. He would screw them down until "it felt right" and then throw the bolts and nut across a street into a vacant parking lot. It would explode on contact with the pavement.
I believe BP is dangerous and am taking more and more precautions in it's use.
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Only thing wrong with a hear say report like this , a new pard to the dark arts may read something like this and decide that black powder is way to dangerous for him ..... I think included in a report like this is the injured party sueing Goex and let us know how that turns out , I`d like to know how that comes out ...I have never seen a warning on the can about the posibility of an explosion from unscrewing the cap , so I would think Goex might be at falt for not haveing and needing a warning on the can . The only warnings on my cans are for keeping it away from heat, sparks and open flames ..and avoiding impact and friction. It doesn`t say anything about being careful when opening the can because of friction , or impact ..
Makes me wonder do cases like this get settled out of court to keep us from hearing about it ?
I open a lot of Goex cans , and if one ever explodes and I live to fight another day ....I will be sueing Goex and I will let ya know how that comes out too .
I have a few storys about unloaded guns shooting people .. but I won`t tell `m wouldn`t want to scare anyone from buying one ......... and no one sued , turns out , there were bullets in those guns .
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Ok gang, can we all agree that our sport and our chosen propellant have a certain inate level of danger that go with them?
I have seen the many and varied posts and tests of the static theory of ignition. Some of the tests are very well designed and so far with results that seem to indicate that static is a minimal consideration where BP loading is concerned. The debate has raged off and on for many years as to whether or not static is a causitive factor in BP explosions. Frankly I'm not convinced either way. Explosions do occure with BP (heck I suspect that there have been more than a few with the other stuff too, but that's a whole other area for debate) and sometimes we know what the ignition source was and other times we don't. Seems like what happens is that when all other causitive factors are ruled out, then static is named as the culprit by reason of elimination. ergo: Whether this is correct proceedure or not, it is the only remaining ignition source that could have caused it, so it gets the blame. A real scientist would have a fit if this were used to determine the truth of any other postulation!
HOWEVER, I will not rule it out either! Many of you know what happened to my thumb. And there are still those who will insist that finger pressure cannot detonate a cap by itself....I know better though.
In the end one must make a decision for ones own self as too what level of danger one finds acceptable. Me? I know that the stuff can go booooom! I also know that static MIGHT be a causitive factor. I know that I can't completely eliminate static from my person at all times that I could be around BP. I chose to use the stuff anyway. I figger that if I were to try to eliminate/avoid all possible sources of danger in my life....I might as well just go ahead and die because life wouldn't amount to much that way! :-\
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Howdy! One thought as to what might have happened; Would it be that there may have been some powder stuck to the threads of the cap or can itself and when it was unscrewed the friction of this caused the powder to detonate. Could it be possable? WBR
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Howdy! One thought as to what might have happened; Would it be that there may have been some powder stuck to the threads of the cap or can itself and when it was unscrewed the friction of this caused the powder to detonate. Could it be possable? WBR
Steve I've been wondering the same thing, when I first started using black powder a friend of mine cautioned me about that. I just took him at his word and have always made sure there was none in the threads before I capped a can. Don't know if it could but I will maintain that practice.
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Ho the fire,
Drifty, pard, I don't mean no disrespect. I value your input, threads and general wisdom. I'm taking all that you posted as fact. You and me are probably trying to find the same thing. . . The answer to the question of why the powder lit in the first place.
That answer may, or may not, be learned. Thing is, all funnin' aside, we do deal with some pretty powerful stuff. For myself, I exercise all possible safety measures. I expect that most pards do the same. It's my prayer that this incident you relate is an anomalie, and will remain so.
I'll be watchin' and readin' and learnin' about stuff that makes my favorite powder go boom without my invite. So far it's mostly pretty well behaved.
DD-DLoS
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Any more word of this event, Driftwood? ???
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ben reading the post and this gets my mind going.I figure until someone has proven this incident didn't happen we all should accept that it did.So many varibles can play into something of this kind.Who can say with out a doubt that it never happened in the past?It maybe a 1 in a million,it may not.
When the cap was lifted off ,with all other varibles in play,the oxygen increase to the inside of the can may have been all that was needed.
I have seen houses explode because someone opened a door.Yes I know other varibles are in play, but it was the first thing that came to mind concidering all the other aspects of the incident.Static maybe,I sure don't know
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I sure wouldn`t mean to say it didn`t happen ...I just sat back and put myself in a new blackpowder shooters shoes , I`ve taught alot of newbies to our sport , and some / most knew nothing about it or how to handle black powder .. This would be a scary thought to them , thinking just opening a can of Goex could spell the end for them ...not much fun there .
There was a story at a Rendevous , that a guy had a powder horn explode while he as wearing it around his neck ....they said it blew a hole in his chest , but he lived to fight another day ......after 6 months of the story being told , ( it just exploded for no reason ) come to find out , he had forgotten to put the end cap back on the horn and was takeing a smoke break with it still around his neck ....not a good pratice even with it capped .... So I`m thinking there may be more to this story than is being told . If it did indeed happen the way it`s told ..there needs to be a warning put out by Goex telling us what to do to releive the possibility of this happening again . Maybe wear rubber shoes and attach ourselves to a ground wire while opening a can .....see what I mean , think about how the new guys and how they feel reading this .
I really like reading about a new guy comming into the black powder shooting world and they just love it ... The powder horn story scared alot of new guys in my black powder club ...to the point of them thinking maybe we shouldn`t wear our powder horns much to dangerous and maybe they shouldn`t even stand close to a guy on the fireing line wearing one . I can just see them running for cover next time they see someone opening a can of Goex .
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Howdy Again
I have no new information to add to this post at this time. Some of you have asked questions that were already answered in my original post. That's fine, I think I have answered them again. Other than that, I have no additional information. I will attempt to fine out more. I don't see the guy I talked to very often. I will see if I can contact him through various means. Perhaps I can even get the name of the victim. I will post more as I learn it.
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Thanks Driftwood for anymore infromation you can find out ... Inquireing minds would like to know , I`ve pionted alot of newbies to this forum as a good source of infromation...just want to know is this just a good campfire story , or one for the history books .
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What I can't fathom is... if I held a can of BP in one hand and removed the cap with the other, and the can exploded, how would I have any fingers left at all?
If I had the space to do it without being arrested, I'd be tempted to tie a half slab of ribs around a can of BP, and maybe a chicken leg close to the lid, touch it off from a distance and see what was left. ???
Goatlips
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What I can't fathom is... if I held a can of BP in one hand and removed the cap with the other, and the can exploded, how would I have any fingers left at all?
If I had the space to do it without being arrested, I'd be tempted to tie a half slab of ribs around a can of BP, and maybe a chicken leg close to the lid, touch it off from a distance and see what was left. ???
Goatlips
Just don't do it with the can below the belt. ;D You know Shutzen flavored ribs cooked the europian way, thew way they do, doesn't sound like too bad a meal to me. Why don't we form up and make BP from mesquite and put a cowboy taste to the ribs? ;D
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This is always a fun experiment to check out when the age old question of "Can static electricity set off black powder?" pops up.
cut, copy, and paste this link in your browser.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html
Remember safety always first.
Enjoy.