Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => The Dark Arts => Topic started by: Dick Dastardly on April 10, 2007, 07:52:57 AM
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Howdy Pards,
Since there's no published data on this fine cartridge for black powder loads, let's collect some wisdom here. Please post ONLY 44 Magnum data only. I know there's a temptation to palaver about a lot of other fine cartridges, but the big 44 needs some attention. I'd like to see load and graph data.
Again, please don't use this thread for other calibers. It's the 44 Magnum that needs honest attention. Lots of SASS legal guns are chambered in 44 Magnum and there's darn little usable data for this fine cartridge in Holy Black.
Yes, do put your Holy Black, Subs and Replicas here. The bullets you use, the primers, the lube and all that makes 'em go for you. After the thread runs for a while I'll try to sort it into a table and ask Cuts to file it in the bp library for reference.
Thanks,
DD-DLoS
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Here's what my load is.
44 Magnum brass (not fussy about brand)
CCI-300 primers
2.18cc (translates to about 35 grains) of FFFg Holy Black (Dragon/LIDU)
Mav Dutchman 200 grain Big Lube™ bullet lube/sized to .429 (Pearl Lube II)
Compress powder with bullet and crimp on press.
Complete nice tight crimp with LEE factory crimp die (roll crimp)
I'll edit this thread when I have some current graph data. Probably this weekend.
DD-DLoS
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The following loads are 4 years old. I started down the path to the Darkside with Cleanshot (APP) because it was a gift, but switched to Goex because of cost savings. I cannot find the Cleanshot load data I was using.
1/22/2003
44 Mag mixed brass
Rem LP primers
24gr Goex FFFg
200gr RNFP 3-D/Hornady
3/16" grease cookie
waxed OJ (orange juice) card between grease cookie and powder
compressed with boolit and heavy crimp
5/13/2003
44 Mag mixed brass
Rem LP primers
32gr Goex FFFg
200gr RNFP
compressed with boolit and heavy crimp
Slim
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Howdy, Pards,
I have NOT shot .44 "Extra Long Russian" (that's .44 Magnum loaded to CAS specs), but can give you some guideline data on case capacities. Checking .44 Magnum brass (Remington) against Winchester .44-40 brass, I find the Maggie brass to have a WATER capacity about 12.5 percent LESS than the .44-40, when loaded with the same bullets (213.5 gr). IF MODERN .44-40 brass will handle 35 grains of FFFg, this would suggest a powder charge of 30.6 gr. of FFFg in the .44 Magnum case. Obviously, different brass brands, bullet weights, powders, etc., will cause this to vary.
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Dick,
Here is my load that I was using.
Misc. Brass (mostly Starline Nickle)
~30 gr Goex FFFg
Wad cut from cardboard milk carton (Lucern Acidophilus ;))
.45 Cal Oxyoke Wonder Wad
200 Gr RNFP from Laser Cast :-\
I haven't loaded any more since I got the Snakebites from Springfield, but may now that a pard has the Mav Dutchman mold. Sorry, no chronny on these (owner didn't want BP shot over it ::)).
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The discharge of Holy Black over the chrony don't do no bother. Whut ya want to watch is that none of them wads hit the photocells tho. I routinely shoot Genuine Powder loads over my Ohler 33 with no discernible ill effect, but I do shoot thru a cardboard appature to arrest the rampant flames and smoke rings. . .
Interestingly enuf tho, most of the bp loads I've graphed have very small Standard Deviations. Just goes to prove that we shooters of the Holy Black ain't no deviates. . . . . . . ;D ;D
DD-DLoS
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BP data is real simple and works for any caliber.
1.) Fill case with powder
2.) Choose soft bullet with BP lube
3.) Jam bullet into case leaving no airspace
4.) Shoot
Nothing is simpler to use than real BP. Don't need a scale or anything else. The only thing that matters is making sure there is no airspace in the shell.
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Thanks Larsen,
You're right, you know. Yes it is simple and your guidelines will work with any cartridge that's appropriate for black powder. But, I wanted to collect enough loads that this fact is well illustrated. That's why I'll be graphing some of my ammo and posting that also. That is, if this dang snow storm (result of global warming - I'm sure) gets done and I get a hole in the overcast to work with.
DD-DLoS
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Some rounds over my Ohler 33 graph this afternoon, before the batteries went dead.
My standard load from above.
Browning 92 rifle
Average = 1165 fps
Standard deviation = 6.28 fps
Ruger Vaquero 7-1/2" barrel
Average = 956 fps
Standard deviation = 4.14 fps.
This stuff is pretty accurate ammo, as the above data would suggest. I was a mite surprised that the same ammo in the pistol ran only 200 fps slower than the rifle. I mean, 956 fps is getting on downrange pronto. I did not get to test any of the 40 grain loads because the dang batteries quit. I'll do this later and report back.
DD-DLoS
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That's why Elmer Keith felt that a person should use BP when learning to reload, no chance of a mistake as long as she's full.
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Well I've been shooting the 40gr load with Schutzen FF and have also used Goex FF and Cartridge. When seatin the soft mav duchman bullets I get less deformation by seating just under the crimping groove. With the shorter 200gr lazer casts I seat as normal in the crimp groove. Cant wait for the chrono results.
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Galloway you just reminded me. I was wondering how the Mav's compare with Laser Casts. Which do you find to be more accurate / easier to clean up after?
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The Mav's better hands down but I'll mention a few things. LC's only shoot about an inch bigger group but give occasional flyers that open the group about three additional inches. So what should have been a three inch group at 25yards will become a six, whereas the Mav's will consistantly do two inches. Thats with a dirty barrel though so the first 10-15 shots will do 3 inches if the barrels clean. This is with a 20'' 1892 by the way. The LC's work well in revolvers and I'll continue to use them and save the Mavs for the rifle. Like I mentioned above the LC's are shorter and allow the 40gr load to be seated properly without deformation. One thing that isnt mentioned often about the Mav is it has awesome meplate and should be quite the killer of game which I'll be testing in the future.
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Howdy Pards,
I only know of one deer that's been shot with a black powder loaded Mav Dutchman bullet out of a 44 Mag rifle so far. Not much data. Deer died promptly. Entire top of heart was gone. I'll let you know if the next one lasts longer.
DD-DLoS
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My shooting Pard, Pukin' Dog, shot two deer on my property just after Thanksgiving. He was running his 44-40 Cowboy loads. Both deer died promptly. There was very little ruined meat. One bullet was recovered. It was the usual Mav Dutchman that weighs 205 grains as dropped. The recovered bullet, from under the hide on the far side of the deer, weighed. . . . . 205 GRAINS How's that for weight retention. The bullet was deformed some on the nose but from all appearances, it didn't tumble going thru the deer.
One deer was close, about 50 yards, and the other was about 100 yards.
DD-MDA
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DD,
Thank you for the MAV Dutchman deer harvesting reports. Nice job. ;D
That big meplat keeps the bullet going front end first.
w44wcf
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I load the same 44 mag for a pr of Ruger Vaqueros with 5 1/2" bbls , a pr of Ruger Bisleys with 5 1/2" bbls and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy.
LOAD 1
Note: Even tho APP says no lube is needed, this seems to need more attention to wiping down between stages than other powders.
Cases: Assorted mfg brass (no nickle)
Primer: Federal Lg Pistol
Bullet: 200gr RNFP Lead sized 429
Wad: None
Powder: APP (Jim Shockey's Gold) BP Substitute
Crimp: Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die 44 mag heavy crimp
Load 2
Note: Plenty of smoke and flame, less 'bark' and easier to control on target
Cases: Assorted mfg brass (no nickle)
Primer: Federal Lg Pistol
Bullet: 200gr RNFP lead sized 429
Wad: Circle Fly prelubed 430 (1/2 wad)
Powder: Goex FFFG 1.9CC (30.3gr)
Crimp: Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die 44 mag heavy crimp
Load 3
****Favorite load**** Plenty of 'bark' and a crowd favorite (WARTHOG)
Cases: Assorted mfg brass (no nickle)
Primer: Federal Lg Pistol
Bullet: 44 MAV Big Lube 200gr sized 429
Wad: None
Powder: Goex FFFG 2.2CC (35 gr)
Crimp: Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die 44 mag heavy crimp
Occasionally I will use Pyrodex as a BP substitute if that's all I can get and use a prelube wad with it. Everything else is the same.
I have never chrono'd these so I do not know what the fps would be.
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I loaded up some 44 mags a while back with the same 1.9 cc of holy black FFg Schuetzen, topped with a Dr Pepper case wad and a hand lubed billy bullet (moly coted that has a 1/8 inch semi circular lube groove, decent crimp in the regular crimp groove. Shot fine out of rugers and a 92 rossi. No hard fouling pretty much shot where pointed.
Used the same load substiuting a lube cookie or a homemade wonder wad with a Dr Pepper Patch on top as well out of a 45 colt using bear creek moly cotes. Shot fine out of both my RNVs and a Buff Classic Carbine 45 colt. The RNVs shot about 4 inches low at 15 yards with the 200 grain bullets. The bear creek bullets don't have a lube groove so used the cookie or wonder wad. No wierd fouling in bore. Rifle shot ok at 25 yards. Was really seeing if it would work as a plainsman rifle load. It is fine but since have determined my Armi Sports Sharps really likes that load and 2.2 CC of Walnut media topped with a .062 wad and the wonderwad at 25 yards
Could not see buying new bullets just to shoot bp have something like 4k of the 44 and 45 molys
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I load the .44 Extra Long Russian for a friend of mine. I use 1.9cc's of Pinacle, Lyman's Coyboy boolit that I cast, sized to .430, or any other lead RNFP that he gives me. I employ a wad cut from soda can cartons and touch all of that off with a WLP primer. He has fun shooting them at the CAS match we attend and he's happy.