Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Ornery Orr on August 07, 2006, 06:44:25 PM
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The buzzards ain't even squawkin'.
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Ornery Orr, you'll have to go to the chambers for that. Can't have any of that going on in the public forum for all to see. Wild Ben Raymond
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They finally discovered I'm not an NCOWS member anymore. I can't get into the members only forum.
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Tony,
There is always a calm before the storm. Hang on something is bound to break free for
all to chew on.
Kayleen
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Yeah, but all the good stuff is always on the members only forum. :D
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I can bring out my "Mighty Ten". ;D
Slim
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Ornery Orr, You could always renew your membership :o if you think it's worth it, just to get back into the chambers. ;D WBR
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Ornery Orr, You could always renew your membership :o if you think it's worth it, just to get back into the chambers. ;D WBR
And give the money to those clowns? NO WAY! ;)
Now that I think of it, I need to get that sticker scraped off the window of my truck. I think I'll do that tonight. I need to get the one off of my NON-PC guncart also. ;D
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I can bring out my "Mighty Ten". ;D
Slim
That would sure get peoples attention! :o
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Tony;
I'm just curious; If you have such contempt for NCOWS why do you come to the NCOWS forum, let alone post here?
I don't belong to SASS therefore I don't go the the SASS wire. I don't care what they do or say over there.
What am I missing? ???
Books
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Tony;
I'm just curious; If you have such contempt for NCOWS why do you come to the NCOWS forum, let alone post here?
I don't belong to SASS therefore I don't go the the SASS wire. I don't care what they do or say over there.
What am I missing? ???
Books
Last time I checked, this was a public forum. No need to be an NCOWS member here. I would love to get into a discussion on this subject with you, but isn't that what the members only forum was created for? So that potential new members don't see the mayhem and discontent? Why don't you just go back over to the members area and flap your wings with the rest of the buzzards.
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Double O,
You are trying to have it both ways. And you didn't answer the mans question........So.......what's your point? You don't like NCOWS and don't want to be a member. Great, that's your perogative! This is indeed a public forum but why do you seem to want to stir poop?
If I don't like something I don't take a bite of of it. If someone else happens to like it, I don't try to interfere with his pleasure by moaning about it. I happen to despize plastic gunz, but there are numerous net boards dedicated to them. I don't go there and stir up a stink just because I can. :-X Instead I go where my interests are! :)
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Cuts, I don't know if it was your choice of words or the mood I'm currently in but your absolutely right.
I choose to not be an NCOWS member anymore for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is that as an NCOWS member (then) I wasn't presented with an opportunity to vote in the last election for congress members. Nobody was (unless you went). Secondly, I don't approve of holding "super secret" congress meetings and not notifying territorial senators in a timely manner and then kicking them out of their position because they didn't make it. These are dirty dealings and I don't want any part of them.
With that said, I'll be deleting my account here on CAS City. Happy trails.
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Howdy,
With Ornery Orr gone, I would like to address his final post.
In 2005 there were only 5 candidates running for 5 Senate seats. The E Board discussed the situation and decided to save the money of mailing ballots with 5 candidates for 5 positions. I heard no rumors of anyone desiring to run a write in campaign. This is a garbage complaint that has no bearing on the outcome of the filling of the 5 Senate seats.
Regarding the officers, one Senator, Angie Kroemer [sp?] was replaced after missing more than one meeting without sending a proxie or excuse. Norm and Cindy Rollins sent in letters of resignation, prior to the 27th Congress meeting. It was their choice and not an action by the Congress expelling them. These are bogus complaints too.
I speak as a member who was at the 26th Congress meeting at Hooten old town and the 27th Congress in McGregor. Both of the Senators of my posse and my posse Representative received notification of the election and 3 NCOWS members put their name into consideration. The names were to the Secretary more than 30 days prior to the election and sent to all Congress memers 20 days prior to the election at Hooten. ALL CONGRESS MEMBERS KNEW ABOUT THIS ELECTION AND HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEND OR SEND A PROXY!!
I have posted this to set the record straight. This is not intended as a slam/put down to anyone. It is just the truth.
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I have posted this to set the record straight. This is not intended as a slam/put down to anyone. It is just the truth.
Troublemaker! ...quit trying to confuse the issue by stating the truth. (http://www.lone-gunman.com/paddle.gif)
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Dr. Bob,
Thank you, I was hoping that someone in-the-know and with the correct info would step up and address these comments. I truly think that certain people/groups are receiving biased info and being misinformed and it is an injustice to them.
Thank you LG for backing Dr. Bob's response. I trust your presence and meeting notes hold the truth also.
I witnessed the Nationals meeting along with several other members old and new. I am certain that if anything was incorrect someone would have stated a foul. Several absentee names and votes were called, so responses were returned, therefore early notification/requests where made. Whether club members were queried, well that is a matter you need to take up with your reps/leaders. Not the NCOWS overall process.
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Cuts, I don't know if it was your choice of words or the mood I'm currently in but your absolutely right.
With that said, I'll be deleting my account here on CAS City. Happy trails.
Double O, I don't know if you will read these words or not, but it was not my intention to run you off from CAS City. There are a lot of places to visit here b'sides the NCOWS rooms. Please reconsider and reopen your account so you can participate in the fun places here. It isn't all NCOWS ya know! There are over thirty other places to visit here ;D
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Dr. Bob, you are incorrect with your last statement, Senators are elected by the open membership, not the Congress!!!! In the past, if a unexpired term has need to be filled, the candidate from the last election with the most votes has filled the position that was not elected previously. It also states that sixty days notification are needed before an election is held, and all members must be notified which they were not since the Shootist has been months behind in it's publication schedule, the general membership was unaware of this election.... If you don't think this is upsetting, why are so many folks resigning/not renewing their memberships....
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Well...NO, Dr Bob is correct. This matter was handled properly and in the same manner it always has been:
Articles of Incorporation Section 5.03. As soon as possible after any vacancy occurs, the Board of Directors shall, at a regular or special meeting, elect a member to fill that vacancy.
Who is the Board of Directors:
Section 5.01. The business of the corporation shall be conducted by a Board of Directors called a Territorial Congress
In 2004 it was the Territorial Congress who voted to fill the remainder of Dirk White's Senate position with the person who finished 6th in the just concluded election.
In 2001 it was the Territorial Congress who elected Charlie Reynolds to fill the remainder of Dennis Kavenaugh's Senate position.
Accusations of improper procedure are simply unfounded, and in my opinion, very suspect in nature.
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Wymore, read this,
Section 5.03. As soon as possible after any vacancy occurs, the Board of Directors shall, at a regular or special meeting, elect a member to fill that vacancy.
and this,
Section 5.04. There shall be a nominating committee appointed by the Marshal (President) not later than thirty (30) days prior to the annual meeting, or whenever other elections are necessary.
The bylaw that you read about the 60 days refers to the annual election that NCOWS holds, not a special election.
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If you don't think this is upsetting, why are so many folks resigning/not renewing their memberships....
Wymore,
Since you are one of the people that post here with half truths, innuendos, that have no bases in facts, and since you are so well informed......? Why don't you tell us who those "so many folks resigning/not renewing their memberships" are. Instead of being spoon fed by malcontents and individuals (such as yourself) that don't know the facts, why don't you stand up like a man and speak for yourself?
Bill
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Secondly, I don't approve of holding "super secret" congress meetings and not notifying territorial senators in a timely manner and then kicking them out of their position because they didn't make it.
The minutes of that meeting can be read by clicking here (http://www.ncows.org/minutes_of_the_twentysixth.htm). Note that of a total of 30 members on the Territorial Congress that 25 were present either in person or by proxy. (Obviously it wasn't a very well kept secret ;) ) Of the five who were absent: NCOWS was not aware that Mr Caldwell had been replaced so the notice was sent to the wrong address, Mr Garnatz was gravely ill, Mr Carpenter was preoccupied with conducting the FDMR 3day shoot, and both Rollins' resigned of their own volition...they were not kicked out.
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As NCOWS' Marshal, I had no intention of responding to the insulting, ranting, baseless commentary being proffered here, but that is simply no longer possible.
Regardless of what some would have you believe, the truth is this:
There exists within our organization a small, but highly vocal, faction who have become disenchanted with NCOWS primarily because it is trying to return to the path of authenticity on which the organization was founded.
As NCOWS' properly elected governing body, the Territorial Congress, voted overwhelmingly to prohibit clearly modern gamer-influenced items and accessories (shotshell slides, short-stroked rifles, the non-authentic Bisley Vaquero, modified firing pins and rifle carriers, etc.) their discontent grew.
Unable to dominate the Congress and have these non-authentic items reinstated, they have instead resorted to a "scorched earth" policy of trying to discredit, humiliate and destroy, if possible, the organization through misinformation, half-truths, and outright fabrications.
The elections have been conducted 100 percent by the book. There are no "secret" meetings, no irregularities, no subterfuge -- save that being practiced by this faction itself. No Congress members have been "kicked out." And there have been far more false accusations and allegations than these circulated in whispers and shouts by the disgruntled.
NCOWS is a member-driven, non-profit organization -- its business is conducted in the open for all members to see if they care to attend. In the wake of threads such as this, the time for delicacy has expired.
Adolph Hitler himself is quoted as suggesting that "the people will more easily believe a big lie than a small one."
These are lies -- big and small -- and are designed to damage NCOWS to the greatest degree possible. They are advanced by members -- and former members-- mad that they are being democratically outvoted by their peers who are choosing greater authenticity over the gamer mentality and its accordant "arms race."
Apparently unwilling to simply accept these changes, or politely withdraw and find an organization that suits their interests more closely, they instead would try to poison the organization to everyone else, in a childish, mean-spirited and immature attempt at revenge.
It is sad, but it is true -- regardless of how some may attempt to "spin" the facts.
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Irish Dave,
People both inside and out of NCOWS needed to hear that from an Exec.
Thank you.
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Ornery Orr, Now see what ya started, so much fer piece & quiet. ;D WBR
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Marshal Irish Dave,
Very well said!!
WW,
There was no unsuccessful Senate candidate from the 2005 election as there were only 5 candidates for the 5 seats. As Lone Gunman showed the leagal process was followed exactly as required.
Visitors,
Non Congress members can attend the business meetings of the NCOWS Congress. I have attended 3 of the last 4. I have always been allowed to express my views to the Congress during the meeting, as were other visiting members. No secrets about anything. The meeting agenda is on the NCOWS web site before the meetings. Also on the web site is a list of all Congress members and the option to e-mail any or ALL Congress members. All NCOWS members get to vote for all the Senate positions. Please visit the NOCWS web site and read the Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws if you are not sure who to believe. NCOWS is a good organization and it is run by it's members. The current Congress is working to provide all members the kinds of activities that they are interested in. I hope that after looking us over you will join.
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Wymore,
Since you are one of the people that post here with half truths, innuendos, that have no bases in facts, and since you are so well informed......? Why don't you tell us who those "so many folks resigning/not renewing their memberships" are. Instead of being spoon fed by malcontents and individuals (such as yourself) that don't know the facts, why don't you stand up like a man and speak for yourself?
Bill
Bill,
I'm one of those "so many folks" and Holly is another. I have also resigned my positions as newsletter editor, media representative and membership with The Blue River Regulators and I know of at least 13 other "folks" doing the same (various clubs) but would not presume to name them. That's for them to do if they wish.
As to OO, perhaps he, like Holly and myself wish to keep up with some of the news of the clubs we may shoot with from time to time. No membership requirement necessary to attend a shoot. Mine and Holly's home club is now NTR and no NCOWS membership required there, just NRA membership which is a far more important membership in my opinion. Take care.
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Terry:
I appreciate your responding in a civil way and sharing your perspective.
I would, however, disagree on one note in particular regarding your defense of OO:
And give the money to those clowns? NO WAY!
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Why don't you just go back over to the members area and flap your wings with the rest of the buzzards.
This doesn't sound anything like wishing to "keep up with some of the news of the clubs we may shoot with from time to time" to me.
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Dave, would you care to share with us your thoughts on why we needed a unprecedented election, one that could not have been taken care of at a regular scheduled Congress meeting in a month or even by the next regular election???? An e-board member would need to be replaced immediately would be understandable, but a regular Congress member????
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Dave,
you're right. I guess I was attributing my own motivation to another. In my own defence however, I did preface with "perhaps". Take care.
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Wymore,
Since you are one of the people that post here with half truths, innuendos, that have no bases in facts, and since you are so well informed......? Why don't you tell us who those "so many folks resigning/not renewing their memberships" are. Instead of being spoon fed by malcontents and individuals (such as yourself) that don't know the facts, why don't you stand up like a man and speak for yourself?
Bill
I'm one of 'em, when my membership expires next month.
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Rawhide Rio;
Okay, would you please be kind enough to tell us why?
Grizzle Bear
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No problem, Wymore.
The election was conducted because the Bylaws instruct and require us to do so.
The Bylaws Section 5.03 (as has been printed here a couple of times) indicates that an election to fill a vacancy is to be held "as soon as possible at a regular or special meeting" and that vacancies are to be filled by a vote of the Congress, not the membership.
As there was an important Congress meeting slated for the end of July, it was determined that the vacancy should be filled before that Congress meeting in order to have as much participation as possible. The Bylaws state that the Marshal may call special metings for this kind of thing and that is what was done.
The Congress members were notified of the vacancy and of the special meeting to be held at the National Shoot in Hooten. Congress members were asked for nominations and 3 were submitted. Congress members were notified of the nominations and had ample time to consider them. The Bylaws also state that Congress members must either attend Congress meetings in person or by proxy or explain to the Congress why they did not comply.
Congress members not finding a candidate they would support, could still fulfill their obligation by sending a proxy of "abstain."
Nearly all Congress members were either there in person or sent proxies. Those who did not were asked to explain their absence as required by the Bylaws.
This is all about just following the rules, Skip. No mysteries. No conspiracies. Just doing what the Bylaws require of us.
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In light of some earlier postings it would probably be prudent of me to put on my Moderator hat for a moment and remind everyone of Marshal Halloway's main rule for using CasCity:
You agree, through your use of the Cas City Forum Hall, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of ANY law.
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Terry:
Take care, yourself, my friend.
Sorry to see you leave us, but I extend our best wishes and hopes for continued successes to you and yours.
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Dave, thanks for the your explaination, while I still disagree with it, I would submit that since similiar circumstances have occured, a general letter from you mailed to the entire membership informing them why and when a special election is happening could have prevent the uproar that has happened which has hurt NCOWS by members resigning/not renewing their memberships.
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I understand, Skip.
Maybe a mention in the Marshal's Column of The Shootist is worth considering.
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Bill,
I'm one of those "so many folks" and Holly is another. I have also resigned my positions as newsletter editor, media representative and membership with The Blue River Regulators and I know of at least 13 other "folks" doing the same (various clubs) but would not presume to name them. That's for them to do if they wish.
Terry,
Of the all people that post here, you're one of the few white men that I had a lot of respect for. I hope that you will reconsider resigning.
Bill
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What is the real problem? To many rules? Folks not able to comprehend what those written rules are? Not enough money being generated? Gas price to high for me to travel? This sport is to expensive for me right now? TheTonka trucks you want, not being allowed in the sandbox? We all have joined NCOWS for our own personal reasons and with that comes a bit of mature responsibility of knowing what is expected from the organization.
Let's face it, at times we all have a problem with a rule, by-law or the congress' decision. If your representative is doing his/her job, your posse should know what is going on and what is on the agenda. Better yet get to the congress meetings and voice your dislikes.
The problem I see is that when it comes to having NCOWS stretch from ocean to ocean, those that have been in the driver's seat for a number of years are having problems accepting that. Many of the by-laws have not been enforced very well in the past. Now with new Executive personel they are doing some major house keeping. We are also seeing some personality clashing and bashing.
This may be a public board, but a certain amount of respect should be still be shown to each and everyone here and towards NCOWS.
Latter,
Kayleen
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Dave, thanks for the your explaination, while I still disagree with it, I would submit that since similiar circumstances have occured, a general letter from you mailed to the entire membership informing them why and when a special election is happening could have prevent the uproar that has happened which has hurt NCOWS by members resigning/not renewing their memberships.
Wymore,
That is an excellent idea!!!
We SHOULD directly poll and communicate with our membership on issues of importance to NCOWS.
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I'm sorry I took the time to read all this crap.
WE ARE ONE SHOOTING SPORT. WE STAND TOGETHER OR WE HANG TOGETHER.
I couldn't get the local Mason City club to accept this either but I thought I'd try here.
The closest NCOWS group 'round here is a great bunch of pards.
Mike
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I'm one of 'em, when my membership expires next month.
Rio, I hope you reconsider. We really need your influence here since I don't believe you personally know any of the individuals.
I know you don't like some of the things you read on the members only forum and particularity people making jest of other's hats. Many people who reside East of the Mississippi don't understand that a cowboy's hat is nearly sacred to them.
I for one will miss you if you don't renew.
Will Ketchum
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Many people who reside East of the Mississippi don't understand that a cowboy's hat is nearly sacred to them.
Thats why I keep saying it takes more than clothes and documentaion of such to make a true personna. Cris LeDoux made a cult hit out of the 1970's Johnny Paycheck song, "This Cowboy's Hat" or at least out in our area.
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Thats why I keep saying it takes more than clothes and documentaion of such to make a true personna. Cris LeDoux made a cult hit out of the 1970's Johnny Paycheck song, "This Cowboy's Hat" or at least out in our area.
I agree....on both counts.
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Rawhide Rio;
Okay, would you please be kind enough to tell us why?
Grizzle Bear
The fact that I have decided not to renew my NCOWS membership will have no consequences to the organization what-so-ever. I am one of maybe three members in the entire state of Arizona, and the probabilty of ever shooting a NCOWS match are about .1%. In a way, even though I am a member, (and absolutely nobody has done or said anything to made feel this way), I feel like an outsider. This is not necessarily a bad thing.
It has given me the advantage of being on the outside, looking in. Some of the members that post on the NCOWS forum and the NCOWS Chambers forum should look at how they are talking to each other. The "love it or leave it" and "my way or the highway" attitudes, and in some cases name calling, based on opinions of authencity or the way they think something should be accomplished, are not going to endear yourselves to new members, or potential new members. This is supposed to be a brotherhood, for God's sake! There have been times when both forums have looked like something right off the SASS Wire.
RRio
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Thanks Pard, a lot of what I've seen happen the last few days seems to me some who have been told to love it or leave it have decided to leave and are just simpley flippin' the bird so to speak as they leave, not an uncommon reaction when someone has offended you.
Authenticity is often just an opinion based on ones own research if you are honest, sometimes the "that ain't the way it is attitude comes off to folks who's research has come to a different conclusion than someone elses, as calling them a liar, an offense worse that the hat insult Intent don't mean poop, it's how it comes off to the other person that does.
In my experience in any historic venue those who claim PC often do VERY well in the area of their own expertice and fall down in others, this is fine as long as they realize that, since this group is based on not just the shooting and not just being 100% PC to the point of being judged, but a mix of both that is said to make room for both, if I read the By-Laws correctly.
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this group is based on not just the shooting and not just being 100% PC to the point of being judged, but a mix of both that is said to make room for both, if I read the By-Laws correctly.
Del:
I think you're reading them exactly right in my opinion. That's precisely my interpretation as well.
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Rawhide Rio,
Thanks for your insightful reply. I agree with you.
Slim
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Sorry guys I don't like "I've got to win" gamers. Weather it's shooters or clothes nazies. Just try your best and HAVE FUN.
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The "love it or leave it" and "my way or the highway" ...
OK, so using your philosophy what if a person showed up at a PGA golf tournament with a tennis racket and screamed because they wouldn't let him play? A horse at the Indy 500? A machine gun at a muzzle loading event? Better yet, if someone form Handgun Control showed up at an NRA banquet and wanted the floor? I haven't belonged to any group or organization whereas some faction hasn't tried to exert control in some form or other. NCOWS is "culling the weeds" so to speak and the lines have been drawn. There comes a time when a person has to decide where they stand. That time is now. Some will answer the call and some will not.
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And why is the middle ground where it is intended to be so wrong? Is anyone trying to shoot their 1100 Remmy and their Glock? Perhaps the shotgun targets should be pigeons and glass balls, after all that is PC. ;) Where do you stop on PC?
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Del,
I have only seen one instance of a person being talked to about his clothing. At the recent nationals a fellow came in in regular blue jeans. He was politely told of the rules and quickly offered proper pants by at least 2 NCOWS members. NO complaints about any hats.
At the GAF Muster last Oct. nobody said any thing to the fella who was wearing modern stitche top cowboy boots, jeans with both back pockets, modern shirt that buttons all the way down, modern leather jacket with a zipper, and a buscadero rig. We noticed, but didn't say anything.
NCOWS is based on MINIMUN authenticity. I don't care what your hat looks like. I think that most any crease existed and most were left open and were worn with the shape that just happened for the most part. Being a townie, I don't often wear a "cowboy" hat. No problem here with a slope crease with pinch. There were several at Hooten and no one was hasseled for wearing one. Yea, we discuss and cuss them here, but all are entitled to an opinion. Mine is that "hats are hats" and wear what you want/like.
Guns and other equipment - see the approved/unapproved list. It has been voted on by the Congress, which is elected by the members. Pretty simple to know what is ok and what isn't.
We have shooting classes for most any taste. 4/5 guns for those who want to, 2 guns for those like me, cap & ball BP for the early folks. All approved and encouraged. None in the Congress are trying to eliminate any of this.
NCOWS is quite inclusive. Plenty of great competitors AND plenty of Old West history buffs. Some are both. Let's get back to having fun.
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Dr. Bob, yeah I think thats what it's all about. As long as folks meet the minimum, it should be left be, example will make them want more, not the preaching that seems to abound. People are like dogs you back them in a corner and most will bite. I've spent a lot of time over the last few years helping folks who started with the mininum, up grade to much higher standards. Yes it's my job when I'm on the clock, but my work is by far not all done on the clock.
Get folks out there meeting the minimum, be friendly to them and they will want more, it's human nature.
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In my experience in any historic venue those who claim PC often do VERY well in the area of their own expertice and fall down in others, this is fine as long as they realize that, since this group is based on not just the shooting and not just being 100% PC to the point of being judged, but a mix of both that is said to make room for both, if I read the By-Laws correctly.
If I am reading this the way you mean it to sound. That is the by-laws allow both sides to exist in harmony together at the same time at the same shoots, well then I agree with you.
Both sides have aways existed together from the beginning. But I don't believe there are two sides. We Dress Old West style and We Shoot Old West Guns. But they are not two seperate entities. It is what the Club stated it would do as a Club in the Preamble.
Marlen Ingram's 3 levels of authentity helped people understand each other better concerning outfit.
The approved and non-approved list helps each individual understand the shooting portion of the club.
The acceptance of 12 or more shooting classes/categories indicates variety, not lumping compromise, within NCOWS.
The '100% PC to the point of being judged' is your expression for the Original Category, I gather. This was a voted and approved category like any other class/category, Smokeless, BP or pistoleer. It should not be a bone of contention for anyone, it is a volunteer category, just like all others. I don't shoot smokeless anymore but I am not going to bash those that do.
The group of people or club that may be leaving NCOWS made it clear that they did not approve of this category. They even stated they felt it should be only a side match not a category/class of shooting. I thought I saw comments that the club would not offer it at NCOWS shoots. Well it was voted on and approved by the member body of NCOWS, not just the 20 or so that participate in the class.
This club stated that their clients emphasized the shooting and that they were in touch with the shooting events. But this same group had numerous members pushing to ban the use of Spencers 56/50's. Remember back summer of 2005. Well look at what SASS did some 8 - 10 months later. They approved it. We only have limited approval. They state they are in touch with the shooting masses. Well that is one we lost because of their push.
Now that club is still making their own decisions. They could not and choose not to follow the member decisions. In my mind they do see two seperate entities.
To me NCOWS matches are not just another practice session for the major SASS events, unlike some may think.
To the public this is only my own opinion and perspective on the past limited history I have had with NCOWS.
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Since everyone is doing this for fun or so they say, why is there even a need to divide things up any more than a class for many guns and one for only two guns? To seperate from those who want to dress the minimum and those who want to do more is to start a division. I never met anyone who stayed with the minimum once they got started and decided to stay.
I guess most folks or rather all folks I know do this just for fun, maybe it's me that is missing something, is there someone out there that does what they do for something other than fun? I await with held breath. ;)
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Del:
Except for those who are in this as vendors, I suspect every one of us is in it for the fun. The problem comes in how each person finds his/her "fun."
Unfortunately, some folks apparently find it fun to pull the wings off of butterflies or set cats on fire.
The result is that, by necessity, whenever folks are going to gather together for the purpose of having "fun," such as in an organization, then there have to be some rules so that all who wish can play together. That's one of the freedoms we all compromise in order to live and interact socially. Finding some areas of common ground among a sea of individuals is the basis for virtually any club or organization.
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To seperate from those who want to dress the minimum and those who want to do more is to start a division. I never met anyone who stayed with the minimum once they got started and decided to stay.
I guess most folks or rather all folks I know do this just for fun, maybe it's me that is missing something, is there someone out there that does what they do for something other than fun? I await with held breath. ;)
I now see what you and others mean and are concerned over.
To answer your second statement, it has been well stated that the shooting competition and the desire to win a SASS match is the driving force for several. In the same respect for others the simulation of what may have been a real gun fight is the driving force(not all guns at once). Which one is correct? Who cares we offer both, you choose which category. Is that wrong? As you continue to state, steel is not PC but neither is 4/5 guns at once.
All the classes before Originals were already divisions within the club. Division to allow people with common interest/shooting styles to interact together with in the rules and By-laws. Why does clothing/dress and correct matching of items in a time frame create a perceived greater divisions? The use of speed enhancing devices would create an even deeper division between member over time if allowed. The competitive drive to win or be on top, creates a deep division, then add money into the factor, like in SASS. Well!!!!
So you tell me what is driving this division?
It ain't really clothing and appearances or the use of only two guns. It is the overall desire to be competitive and stay competitive, to use similar items like the club where the money is.
I, like others, use to have fun with all 4 gun at matches in the 90's and thought of attending EOT. But now I don't need or have to shoot all of them at one sitting in order to have fun with friend or people with overlapping interest. I am not competitive enough to want to beat the other person to the very top but only as for as my finance and desires let me achieve. So I am happy and having fun.
Once again only my personal opinion.
Editted: One thing to remember the interest in shooting different classes started years and years ago, even before I started. So the divisions where already starting by your theory of any new class is a division of the group. But understand one thing I would be more than happy to talk and share ideas/conversion with anyone from any other shooting category.
Also think about this, the division you preceive begins the moment you send in your entry form with "names of whom you would like to be paired up with". Well we all go for our own friends/posse members and afterward we still hang with our own. Thereby, sometimes never having the chance or desire to talk to new people.
To stop the appearance of division or perception of not liking one another, don't have SASS like shoots, where you fly though the course of fire and then pack up and head home. Let people talk, have the comradre and have fun.
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Del,
Let me take a shot at answering your question.
People compete in a lot of different areas. When you think of NCOWS, YOU think of shooting. Some think of re-enactment.
I chose to participate in the Originals because it is a competition where you are judged on your persona & approptiateness of your clothing & shooting equipment, which is added to your shooting score. Just as intense a competition for me as when I was a collegiate rifle shooter in the Big Eight Championship match. [Big 8 Conference Champ in 1965, 3 year on All Conference Team] I don't criticise those who chose smokless shootist as thier form of fun. I don't feel threatened by them and thier 4 gun & a PP! ;D
I see no reason that they should feel threatened by such a small number of NCOWS member who find a different type of competition suits us better.
As has alreay been stated, OVER AND OVER, we all get to choose our OWN catagory to compete in. Please give us a break!
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As ya know, you can do what ya want, and Dr. Bob I know you are one who does some Living History in the public venue, but that much work and effort is wasted if your only goal is to bang away at some irion targets. Folks always whine and complain the general public has got all their knowledge of the west from movies. Well if ya ain't doing nuthin' ta change it you are part of the problem. Heck since the organization seems to want to make more rules, make the rule that "Originals" all have to do at least to public venue Living History events a year. Yep do more that put it on paper, do in in front of strangers, that will prove you are at a higher level. Do that or even better everyone in the group do it with out havin' to be told to do it. NCOWS would only benifit a hundred fold.
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hey Del,
I think most of the "Originals" do just what you are advocating. I know that Trap, Dr. Bob and I all came from living history groups. Most recently Trap & I (and our lovely red haired wives) along with Chantilly & Shooten Newton were on the grounds of the Kansas State Historical Society as part of a program doing exactly that. Debunking the Hollywood myths. [They have an amazing exhibit that highlights the most atrocious B westerns that you never heard of and then sets the record straight.]
Just reading here I have heard of similar endeavors by River City John and James Hunt.
Right there is neary half of the "Originals."
The Great Lakes Freight & Mining Posse routinely takes part in a train robbery living History/theator event.
These people and groups are the out reach program of NCOWS.
Unfortunately were are overwhelmed by the other organization that seems to emphasize the Hollywood non-sense.
This does not diminish the efforts by some of the shooting first members. I known of several that are sponsors and instructors in hunter and range safety programs.
One side is not superiour to the other. They just emphasize different part of what NCOWS is about.
Books
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Del,
Your discussion and points have been very thought provoking up to this point. I have had to put time into providing my responses and I like that. But now, do not fall back on your old comments, trying to make people feel guilty about their lack of social service. This whole discussion centers around the rules and by-laws that govern NCOWS members and none of those rules require social work in order to participate. I am not playing this game to educate the masses that are not the least bit interested in the shooting sport of CAS. (As several postings go you cannot sway peoples decisions easily, They must desire to see the truth first.) But I would be happy to talk to anyone that shows an interest in my hobby. I am here in NCOWS for my entertainment. Yes, SASS claimed in its early days that it was interested in getting more of the public interested in shooting. That was a marketing statement.
I also find it nice that other members like Trap and Books and Dr. Bob are teaching / or have taught the public. But public presentations are not a requirement for membership or participation in NCOWS. Public presentation are not necessary for personal understanding of the period. Yes I agree that questions, from several different people, would bring out new ideas and items to research and would broaden each of our limited realm of knowledge. But that is what talking around the campfire and the comradre is all about, wouldn't you agree. But that requires time and desire to do those things.
Also public presentations do not and total knowledge does not affect us as members and if it should, in your perspective, then think of the division or limitation it will create when accepting new members or allowing people to shoot in the Originals. Here is the question we would have to ask every new applicant. "Do you know everything that happend in the time frame of 1865 - 1899 & every product that was available?" "And can you provide the correct answer to any question immediately from memory?" Answer: "Well NO. Is this important if I wear appropriate attire and shoot approved gun?" "Some members claim it is but it is not offically in our rules, but that is another story. So any way, you can't play until you do." Now that is one deeeep division I would say. The Originals class already requires 3 separate evaluations, that is 3 perspectives, whether proposed items fall within proposed time frame. That to me is a large enough knowledge base.
Nor, do the rules state that you must become a promoter after membership begins. But if you are going to promote NCOWS you had better be positive and supportive of the rule and guidelines the membership approve.
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..and to think, this is how this all got started! :D
The buzzards ain't even squawkin'.
(http://www.lone-gunman.com/rotf.gif)
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All,
I am looking forward to participating next year as much as time allows. By then many of the issues detailed on this thread will, hopefully, have abated. I am a supporter of the Originals philosophy and very much into the historical aspect of old west activities. I look forward to visiting with NCOWS members of all types at my little camp in the future.
It's good so many opinions can coexist in a group, discussion can flow and that I can hold to my values without fear of having to change them. This can be said for all.
YMH&OS,
'Monterrey' J. Brass
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BRS, I belive you are one who always comments how the masses have no idea as to what the "Old West" was really like, if I'm wrong I'm sorry. But have you done anything on a regular basis to change that? An "originals" perrsona would do a lot in a public venue to add to the knowledge of the general public, why waste it on just a few who have most of the knowledge, at the range?
I say it should be a rule in jest, but I still can't see why anyone would not want to unless they are not that comfertable with their personna. The rewards are greater than most imagine.
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Del,
I think most of us fit into that category that believes that the masses do not know the real Old West. For one the ratio of SASS/NCOWS versus overall population in US would be a small number.
The fact that the # of western movies made from 1950 to present has decreased enough to indicate a lose of interest by the overall masses.
I agree that those individual that participate in the Original could put on a great show. But it is not necessary. Remember one thing we all pay dues to play this game. I do what make me happy just as the club and members that are stating they are leaving. Everything we do is based on choice.
RCJ won the first two Original events. He chose to not participate at the Nationals. OK, no problem.
I know where my limitations lie, I have no guilt feels, as you continue to try an bring up. I know I can and wll try to improve now and alway. I also know that some like Dr. Bob & OCB know more about clothing than I. But I am will to Talk, Listen and Learn.
Right now my main interest has been to indicate to the public, in this public forum, that the perceived divisions and problems within NCOWS, that are being presented by digruntled individual, are only that, Perceptions. They are not based on real rules or regulation definited by NCOWS for the governing of NCOWS. The statements presented in this pulic forum have obviously not been correct concerning voting decisions nor based on defined rules.
Editted: It was too early for this.
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BRS and all,
from the by-laws "Resolved, that the National Congress of Old West Shootists is a not-for-profit living history and shooting organization formed of individuals and affiliated member units to promote interest in the period of American History known as the "Old West," specifically the period from 1865 to 1899. (All NCOWS rules and regulations are subject to all applicable Federal, State and Local laws.)"
The emphasis is mine. I guess I take that to mean the general public, not just sitting around the campfire with others of already like interests (like all CAS boards) holding hands and singing Kum-Bah-Yah. Take care.
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Myself as most know, always thought that doing more than just dressing up and shooting some iron targets was the REAL differance between SASS and NCOWS, but latley I guess I'm not so sure.
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Well........,
I wasn't gonna comment any further on this but I'm gonna jump in here and I hope that you all will take this in the way I hope you will and not in an advasary meaning.
For most of my adult life I've been a living historian (for those that don't know the meaning, look it up!). I've done so many public demonstrations that I can't count them, from grade schools all the way to the college level with presentations & siminars to some of the leading schools in America, most of this from the Native American aspect, because to me that is the most relevant
I've been doing native american craft demonstrations, dance demonstrations since I was six years old. Does this make me an expert? absolutely NOT. As far as I'm concerned there are no experts....the only true experts have been dead for over a 150 years....But, that said, I don't need someone half my age telling me what I should be doing with the knowledge I do have. I personally know what is needed and for the most part do it in my own way, most often on my own time.
Hell, for a long time we used to travel the country doing just what is talked about here on this post..........but, at some point in your life it gets tiresome especially when you get the same old idiotic questions & snide remarks ( always by adults who should know better & very seldom by children) about Tonto or Cochise, over and over. I will endeavor to promote NCOWS in a positive light, just don't tell me how you think I should do it.
Bill
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Well pards, we'll all get a chance to promote both NCOWS and the Old West at the same time at the NRA Convention. Far as I know, and OCB can confirm this, we can utilize every member who can make it there and put both ourselves and our knowledge to good use! Win-Win for us.
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Terry,
When the general public comes to an NCOWS match I will do my best to promote 'the interest'. As I stated I will talk to anyone that is interested in my hobby. You must remember reading that in one of my earlier postings. But that statement you quote is the Preamble. It is the mission of the club in general. It is not the rules or regulation for being in or participating within a class. My specific comments have been addressing Del statements about internal division.
The Preamble as a mission statement is followed by all members. To me the words 'promote interest' is achieved by attending events in correct attire and utilizing equipment from the period. But it is not adhered to by those who do not understand the words that follow the Promote interest. Those word are ""in the period of American History known at the "Old West," specifically the period from 1865 to 1899"". I think you would agree that if an individual came to a match wearing Shorts; a Hawiian Shirt; and (Dels) Atheletic Shoes that he would not be Promoting interest in the period of 1866 - 1899. Right? And that is the way I interpret the wording Promote interest in..... The short stoke kit nor the shotgun slides Promote that time period either.
As I stated above the preamble does not define the rules and regulations for membership. Also no where in the rest of the by-laws text does it state that X number of hours are required for public service like Del believes we should do. But if he wishes to see it made official, he can put it to a membership vote jsut like any other modification.
To the general public reading this::: Those items, the following of the rules and regulation properly, are what started these comments. I am sorry but I cannot just allow ex-members make wild unfounded accusation, on the pulic forum, that the rules and regulations are not followed.
But, I also find it appalling that members must defend this club and that ex-members find so easy and desirable to make negative comments.
But those are the rules of business. More people will hear and remember the negative stuff said than they will the good.
Editted: You come on here defending Del statements about public presentations (non-shooting events) indicating that they are/or should be an important part of NCOWS. Something that both you and Del do on a daily basis. But yet you quit NCOWS and join up with NTR. A club that has clearly stated that its emphasis is strictly shooting. This has me confused as to your purpose. Pick a side of the fence, any side.
PS: This is my last. I am not conceeding but I am tired of repeating myself. People will not be swayed even though clear evidence against their negative, incorrect and dorragatory comments has been provided. You are here for one purpose and one purpose only. You have made your own decisions.
Editted at 7:50
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Nice try, GW. ;)
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not just sitting around the campfire with others of already like interests (like all CAS boards) holding hands and singing Kum-Bah-Yah.
Terry:
I never hold hands..... ;D
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So Terry, you prouldy inform us that you have dropped you NCOWS membershi, quit one NCOWS posse and joined NTR that has removed all NCOWS references from it's range & printed materials.
Then you presume to tell us how to properly carry out the mission of the organization that you quit. I'll have to give you credit for having a lot of nerve. You didn't get what ever it is that you wanted and now you are trying to tear down an organization that you no longer belong to. Rather an imature attitude!
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I didn't really read that post as a condemnation of the organization. Hmm. Maybe I should look at it again.
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In all fairness to Terry, I didn't read that either in his post. I suspect that he found himself in an uncomfortable and perhaps untenable position with two posses and his business. I expect that he resolved it in the only way he felt was workable at this time.
i wish you well, Terry. Come back and see us when you get the kinks worked out.
Del: Like OCB, I have spent a large part of the past thirty or more years involved in reenactments and some living history events. The difference is that in this part of the country, the local history goes back more than a hundred years earlier than it does where you are. The emphasis is consequently rooted in that earlier time frame. Same, yet not the same.
OO, from your comments, I believe that you are dropping your membership. I wish you a good farewell. Life is too short to stay where you don't want to be or be involved in organizations that do not meet your needs. There is a BIG, WIDE world out there. Enjoy.
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My comments were only addressed at those who haven't and won't even give it a try, if the shoe don't fit, don't wear it, it will give you blisters. ;)
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For all,
I was not criticizing NCOWS as a whole just some members who do not embrace the entire concept of "promoting" the old west and wish to rag on those who do.
For all, I didn't quit one club to join another, we simply dropped membership in one club whose membership requirements we no longer meet. Holly and I have been active members of NTR for 8 years or more. We are also active members of one other club here in Nebraska, two clubs in Wyoming and a club in Oklahoma. We shoot at those venues and actively promote all of them to the general public with all forms of media coverage. Believe it or not, the media loves to interview me and photograph me everywhere I appear nationwide.
For BLR don't try to guess my motivation. It obviously isn't the same as yours.
For French Jack and all, don't worry, I'll still be around.
Take care.
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Well I think we have beat this horse more than long enough.
Time to lock it and move on.
Will Ketchum