Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Drydock on January 08, 2018, 06:58:09 PM
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I've wanted a .50-70 carbine for some time, but as I focus on military rifles, its always been a particular .50-70, the Post war Sharps conversion. This constituted the vast majority of .50-70 carbines issued, supplemented by a few trials versions of the various marks of Trapdoor.
Originals I can neither afford, nor wish to abuse. This leaves replicas. Much as I love the Montana riflemakers, they don't make what I want right now. (Should they in the future, I will get in line)
The only maker of what I want, in the caliber I want, Is Chiappa/Armi Sport. And even this is spotty. So when one popped up in Buds Gun Shop online, at a very reasonable price, I plunked down the plastic as soon as my Christmas money cleared the bank. (fwiw, I was actually tracking 6 sites, with Buds having the best price. As soon as I bought it, they all listed out of stock. Seems they were all selling the same carbine) My Chiappa Spencer has given good service, so I'm willing to try it.
It arrived this last friday. Impressions: Its a solid chunk, a good 1.5 lbs heavier than my .45 TD carbine. I would guess most of that is in the barrel. This likely accounts for most of the impression of gentle recoil the 50 Gov gives. It balances well between the hands, and carrys lighter than it weighs, thanks to its compact length.
Wood to metal is very good! Not as organic as a Shiloh, but better than most any mass produced wood stocked rifle I've handled lately. Case hardening is very attractive. Not sure if it's true case hardening or a chemical treatment, but it is well done. Nice straight grained american walnut, oil finished, not the reddish stain that sometimes afflicts Italian guns. Small parts look like castings, big parts, forgings. The firing pin is a 2 piece unit, with a separate small diameter pin, well supported. I like this design, should reduce if not eliminate pin breakage. The barrel is 6 groove, .510 diameter. That is interesting to me, the orginal Sharps Percussion barrels were 6 groove, .54, as opposed to the 3 groove .515 nominal Springfield supplied liners. The lockplate vaguely suggests the Lawerance priming system, which is as much as any maker does. All the proper patent stampings are there, including the Lawerence patent. The top of the barrel between the action and sight is marked "New Model 1863". Dark even blueing.
One jarring thing: The hammer is wrong! It is simply the Percussion hammer with the nose filled in. The orginal was a unique piece that split the difference between the Percussion and later Cartridge designed guns. This one is too tall, too long, and hits the striker at an awkward seeming angle. It works fine, but someone cheaped out here, a few bucks more would have looked a lot better IMHO. Butchs Antique Gun Parts has original Sharps Conversion hammers, ($20!) my calipers tells me it should work, so one is ordered, and will be sent off for polishing and case hardening. Another cheap feature is the striker is the same part number as Chiappa's M1874, thus is shorter vertically than the original. Again, works fine, but c'mon! The striker is exposed at the back of the breechblock, this is correct for conversions, although the Italians also incorrectly use this block on the 74s. The barrel band was just a tad loose, a playing card shim fixed that. I end up doing that to a lot of Military barrel bands.
The Trigger breaks at just over 5 lbs. Just a touch of creep, fine for a military arm. The tumbler does have a fly, works quite well.
Midway just down the road provided Starline brass, and a Lee 515-450 mold. Unsized at .514 with my alloy, loaded over 65
grains OE 3f, down a 30" drop tube. No wad, light compression, OAL 2.20". Got off work at 1630, sun sets at 1700. A quick run out to the farm gave me just enough light to get off 5 rounds at 50 yards. Nice group low centered on an 8" paper plate, just under 2". With no load development, this is acceptable right off the bat for GAF skirmish work. (Finally a use for my formerly useless Lyman .56/50 dies!)
A nice feature is a tall front blade, secured to the sight base with 2 tiny roll pins. The Lawerence rear sight is ok for skirmish work, and this one has enough tension on the ladder slide to hold under recoil. It is drilled and tapped for a tang sight, I can see a Marbles going on here for serious down range work.
At half the price of the lowest price Montana 1874, this seems a good gun for GAF work in the appropriate time period. Its a natural platform for the Grand Old .50-70. We'll see how it holds up.
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Chuck, Old Chap:
It is “very bad form” and “simply not done” to post such a detailed and interesting account of a newly acquired firearm without suitable photos! Please remedy this gaffe forthwith! ;D ;)
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It shall be done, once I get my wifes new camera figgered out . . .
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Welcome to the world of 50-70 Sharps carbines! The more you shoot it, the more you'll like it.
It was my wife's suggestion when I was first diagnosed with cancer to give me something to look forward to. I ordered it with a 24" barrel at Kirk's suggestion for a little more sight radius and weight up front. It's a good companion piece for my Shiloh '63, also in .50 calibre.
You are definitely better off with a carbine in 50-70 than a '63 in .54. They have cavernous powder chambers and lob a huge Xmas Tree ball. I had a lovely Shiloh '63 Sporter in .54 that I sent more time admiring than shooting. Loading it to capacity was a recipe for self abuse. Loading it down with reduced loads was an extra step I could do without.
I started out with the Lee 515-450 mould, shot as cast. Now I size the Lyman 515141 to .510 for both. 65 grs FFg, no wad and just the compression from the bullet works just fine.
If I may be so bold .... try 28 grs 5744 as a smokeless load. I use it with both the Lyman 515141 and a 375 gr Rapine bullet. Makes the clean up chores a lot easier.
I enjoy ringing the 100m and 150m gongs off hand at our range with my carbines, which is all I expect of them. Both have the factory ladder sights which are adequate for the purpose.
They carry well in the field and I look forward to taking game with either.
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The main point that I got out of this is that, since I have a useless set of Lyman .56-50 dies, I need a .50-70 or they'll just go to waste. I care too much about the environment to allow that kind of waste. I think that a nice .50-70 carbine might make the world (my world anyway) a better place. Thank you for that slight justification (it doesn't take much justification for me to start shopping).
CC Griff
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I momentarily considered ordering a 50-70 Sharps Carbine because that's what they gave the teamsters etc back in the days after the Civil War. I also watched Mike Beliveau's You Tube, and looked at the prices of 50-70 brass at Starline (2.5x to 45-70). Then the Moment was OVER. I'm getting started in the process of loading some 45-70 brass with the wondrous black for it since its that or compete with Krag shooters.
Working on 30-40 loads too. I need to order 220 lead, I have some 220 jacketed.
Later
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Thats pretty much how I started out, Griff. A set of dies is a terrible thing to waste. And whaddya know! They crimp .50-70 just fine!.
Yep, PJ, I have 5744 standing by. But I actually enjoy cleaning a rifle after a BP session. It's a personal problem I've learned to live with. :P
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Its a solid chunk, a good 1.5 lbs heavier than my .45 TD carbine. I would guess most of that is in the barrel. I would suspect that accounts for most of the impression of gentle recoil the 50 Gov gives.
I don't know about that. My only .50-70 Gov is my NYS Remington Rolling Block which is lighter than my Trapdoors, yet is much more pleasant to shoot.
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Considering that with proper care and annealing, 50-70 brass will last indefinitely, the cost of it is immaterial. Price .338 Lapua brass if you want real sticker shock.
Today I ordered 500 Starline 44-40 cases. Total cost including taxes, S&H, plus 4% because I used Mastercard was $229.79. That's the cost of shooting and why I do not go to events where you are not allowed to pick up brass.
I have a higher attrition rate with 44-40 than I do 50-70, usually because some bonehead steps on my brass.
I momentarily considered ordering a 50-70 Sharps Carbine because that's what they gave the teamsters etc back in the days after the Civil War. I also watched Mike Beliveau's You Tube, and looked at the prices of 50-70 brass at Starline (2.5x to 45-70). Then the Moment was OVER. I'm getting started in the process of loading some 45-70 brass with the wondrous black for it since its that or compete with Krag shooters.
Working on 30-40 loads too. I need to order 220 lead, I have some 220 jacketed.
Later
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Looking forward to a complete review. I know where there is a ne2 Chiappa 50-70 that I’m lusting over. But concerned about the bad press a Chiappa garners. But for $1100...... how baD can it be?
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I have owned 2 Shiloh Sharps, and consider them worth every penny. I sold my first one off to pay for a new truck transmission. The 2nd I traded straight up for an M1884 Trapdoor rifle and a US M1917 Eddystone, this when I decided to concentrate on Military weapons. I once ordered a Shiloh 1874 3 band infantry rifle, but Shiloh returned my down payment when they discontinued the military models. Damn!
However, I see nothing in this carbine to make me think it will disappoint me. Everything is properly aligned, everything that should be hardened, is. I hear trigger pulls can vary, I seem to have a good one. Compared to Beliveaus video 5 years ago, the case colors appear far more varied and bright than his. He was pleased with how it shot, and so far am I. I stripped it down, and found no shavings or sloppy machining, though the degree of polish is not at the Montana makers level. Nor would I expect it to be.
My complaints are cosmetic, centered around a hammer style I know is wrong, but that 99% of folks would never notice and not care. It has actually grown on me a bit, as it enhances the percussion style of the gun. So I'm in no hurry to replace it, though I suppose I will someday.
And, if you want a US M1868 Sharps Conversion, in .50-70 Government, this is literally the only game in town. It is not a precision long range rifle, but then neither were the originals. Any changes I may make, will only make it more my own.
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I would also point out that it is the nature of the internet, that for every shrill complaint, there are usually 99 or so folks happy with what they have, but with no need to go on line to speak of it!
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From the ones I saw and shot at the Muster, I was pretty impressed with the quality. As far as the precision part, from watching and shooting them a little, you'll be able to regularly hit the 300 yard target once you figure out the sights, and that's what it was designed for, to hit a man sized target at reasonable ranges. I think you're going to love it!
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While I have a Shilo Business Rifle, and it is my favorite single shot, I also have a Chiappa Sharps 63 that I love and shot last year at the Muster.
It shot way better than I did and I have no complaints with it. I haven't had a hiccup with it in over 500 shots.
My trigger was not real good, but a little smoothing sure helped.
Quick Fire
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BTW, Midway has Starline .50-70 brass on sale right now. ;D
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Hi, my Mike Beliveau my comment was ONLY concerning the $110.00 for a box of 20 rounds, which is why I have that sucker in .45-70.
Later
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Kirk at Shiloh told me that it was common in the day for Sharps to use up the old stock of percussion parts in conversions and rebuilds.
I had asked about the high half cock on my Farmingdale Business Rifle compared to the low half cock of later model '74s. This had been criticized by an 'expert' as being potentially unsafe.
That was an example of Wolfgang Droegge using up percussion parts when he started making cartridge guns, just like on the original Sharps. The high half cock allowed clearance under the hammer to place a percussion cap.
When you consider the number of 'smiths doing conversions and repairs in the era, it's not difficult to envision any number of odd ball combinations.
My complaints are cosmetic, centered around a hammer style I know is wrong, but that 99% of folks would never notice and not care. It has actually grown on me a bit, as it enhances the percussion style of the gun. So I'm in no hurry to replace it, though I suppose I will someday.
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All true!
Day off today, so out to the farm again. 5 rounds at 50 yards made a 1.5" group this time. 3 shots over the chronograph were 1204, 1210, 1209. I don't think there is an easier cartridge to load than the .50-70-450.
The remaining rounds in my pocket, I went over the ridge to look for armidillos. Found one! A 50 Gov't does a serious number on a 'dillo. First time I've not seen one jump 2 feet in the air after being shot.
This is Starline brass, WLR primer, Lee 515450, a Lee 4.0 cc dipper of OE 3f, leveled with an old credit card, though a 30" drop tube, lightly compressed with the bullet to an OAL of 2.20. The Lee design has a slight flare at the base of the ogive, perfect for a light crimp over. I've measured the twist rate as 1-26.
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The 50-70 makes a believer out of you pretty quick! I recommend a copy of Croft Barker's book on the 50-70. He spent a lot of effort into making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, turning a NY State Militia rifle into a real shooter.
I've got some brag targets on my gun room wall fired with my .50 carbines , percussion and brass cartridge, that are impressive.
The only game I've taken with a 50-70 fell to my Military Rifle - two large black bears and six point Mule deer. You can eat right up to the bullet hole.
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Hey Drydock, can you actually USE the ladder on your ladder sights? Mine Flopped up and down or back and forth so I got a Pedersoli sight with notches.
Later
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Surprisingly, it is useful. There's not a whole lot of friction in the slider, but just enough it seems. It does have a very strong spring, that holds it ridged both upright and folded. I would not call it a high quality sight, but it is usable. However, should I feel the need to shoot past 200, I'll put a tang sight on it.
Just as an aside, one other cartridge I'm trying to work up now is the 11mm French Gras. As easy as the .50 Gov't is, the French round is a Cast Iron Bitch to load, brutal to shoot, with it's whole design raison d'etre seeming to be "Eet mus be beegger zan ze Bosche!"
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Just got off the phone with Carrico Leather. A Fair Weather Christian Prairie Belt is on the way, type B with tent canvas loops. This should also work well with my Spencer.
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Hi
This is a bit of a hijack, but it IS for this rifle but in .45-70. I need to work up a black powder load for the Chiappa I used at the 2017 Muster. No reason to shoot against Repeaters if I don't have to.
From what I've been reading in Lyman's black powder loading book and Paul Matthew's book, you don't really work up an accuracy load for a 45-70 like you do a .38 Special. For example for a Bullseye load in .38 Special I made 100 rounds of 3.1 grains of Bullseye, 100 of 3.2 grains of Bullseye, 100 of 3.3 grains, and 100 of 3.4 grains and if this global freezing abates, I'll see which work in which revolver. I have 4 to try so far.
So, from Paul's book, I get a grease cookie or a a fiber wad, load the cartridge with powder (of the black sort) and mainly make sure that there's no air space between the powder and the bullet so that I don't ring the barrel. Not loose, not packed solid, but like the three bears it has to be JUST RIGHT. I learned about shooting from a bench rest shooter so even thinking this way almost hurts.
Is this right or what?
Thanks
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Pretty much thats it. For skirmish shooting I don't bother with the wads either, just put enough powder in the case that seating the bullet lightly compresses it. Military rounds were loaded just that way. Consistant loading this way can get you to 3 MOA pretty easy. Make sure the bullet is a BP design that carries plenty of lube.
Now, for long range precision work, there's enough here to make a BR shooter happy. Different grades and brands of powder like different amounts of compression. Wads can stick to the bullet base, so some put circles of newsprint between the wads and bullet. Some rounds/rifles like hot primers, some like standard primers, some swear by pistol primers. Dare I mention paper patching . . .
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Thanks, but I'm not totally sure I like shooting well enough to do paper patching. I also don't' do wall paper.
Just sayin'
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https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Buffalo-Rifles-Old-West/dp/1879356929/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
Entertaining read, lots of good info.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/272/4/BOOK-SPG
Another good one to have on the shelf.
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Thanks for adding the photos, Chuck ... sweet looking carbine! ;D
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You can make the loading of BPCR rounds in any calibre as labour intensive as you want. Simple is better, especially if you like shooting more than reloading.
A pal of mine (who no longer shoots due to failing eyesight and other health issues) used to go the whole nine yards - weighing/sorting bullets, weighing charges, checking cases for concentricity, wall thickness, indexing bullets and cases, etc., etc. Because I had the guns, he wanted to drag me along this route.
I told him that I'd quit shooting first. Paper patching? It is to laugh ..... It's enough of a PITA to make up paper cartridges for my '63's.
I cast good bullets, anneal, trim, put cases thru' my RCBS case prep machine, weigh charges 'lectronically, taper crimp. That's all, folks.
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I want to make an observation: I've been looking at a lot of pictures and video of this carbine since receiving it. Google "McNelly Sharps" to see what I mean. Most date from 2013 or earlier, the time when Beliveau made his video, sparking a surge of interest in this particular model. Looking at these pictures and video, I see a startling visual difference in these guns then and now. The metal finish then was dull, mottled grey. Some photo's show virtually no case color at all. Some of the photo's show the classically ugly Italian red packing box wood. Even Believeaus video shows a very bland, blond hardwood.
If my gun is a good example, in the last 5 years someone at Chiappa has made a real effort at improving these guns, at least from a visual/wood/finish standpoint. I can also see the front sight was changed from a one piece barleycorn to a practical shooter friendly changeable blade type. Though I cannot see internals of course, still I find this encouraging.
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I omitted a couple of other steps I do when loading BPCR rounds ....
I FL resize my brass, drop tube with a 24" stainless steel tube and use a compression die on top of a thin card wad for 45-70. For 50-70, I use the bullet for compression with no wad.
Works for me.
Re: the quality of your Chiappa carbine .... when you posted the pics, my reaction was "Wow! That is one very nice rifle." If yours is typical, they have a winner.
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I'm quite happy with it. I plan on shooting 2 Matchs with it in march, both our local CAS match, and our Missouri Muster one week later. I'm looking forward to it. I have Croft Barkers book ordered BTW. I have his .43 Spanish book as well.
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Re: the quality of your Chiappa carbine .... when you posted the pics, my reaction was "Wow! That is one very nice rifle." If yours is typical, they have a winner.
Hi
From my standpoint, Chiappa's quality isn't typical. I own two, a Chiappa Cavalry Sharps Carbine in .45-70. The trigger pull was over 10 pounds and the rear sight ladder was completely worthless. My 1911 gunsmith took the Cavalry gun and just stoned the bearing surfaces and now the trigger pull is about 5 pounds. No spring work or metal removal.
I also have a Chiappa 1886 .45-70 Lever gun that is just beautiful. The out of the box trigger pull was 5 pounds. I also don't have a load worked up for it.
Later
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Do you want a couple of recommendations?
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More pictures. If you look, you can make out the assembly number: 7. Lucky number? Stamped on the metal parts, written in pencil on the wood. Maybe they take a bit more time with the .50s? Probably don't make a lot of them.
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Do you want a couple of recommendations?
If you mean me, yep. Can't hurt. I DID get a sight that works better, but I DO need to shim it.
Later
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Drydock has covered the BP recipe. Mike Venturino first mentioned it in his book on BPCRs.
For smokeless, try 28 grs 5744 with the 450 gr Lyman 515141 or Rapine 375 gr bullet. The latter is out of print and you may have to hunt for an equivalent.
The 5744 load shoots to the same point of aim as the BP loads - with MY rifle. You get some unburned powder grs. Big deal.
Incidentally, the same powder 5744 charges work in the 45-70 with the Lyman 457193 420 gr RNFP and the RCBS 350 gr RNFP.
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https://www.buffaloarms.com/brass-oak-drop-tube-for-black-powder-cartridge-droptube2
I would add, for any cartridge of greater than 40 grains capacity, I think a drop tube is vital. Drop tube loads burn cleaner, and make possible single digit standard deviations. I don't do much else in the way of precision loading, but I do use a drop tube. It's the best way to consistently settle the powder. And consistency is everything in the BP rifle cartridge. Bullet, bullet lube, powder, powder settling, powder compression, primer, all need to be consistent for best results,
A BP rifle cartridge need only be a proper BP lubed bullet, powder and primer. But those 3 components need to be loaded as consistent as possible. Do that, and 3 moa is easy. That's all you need for combat/field use. Especially if it's one of the straight cased American rounds.
The above is a nice one, and it also shows how easy it is to make one.
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You can make the loading of BPCR rounds in any calibre as labour intensive as you want. Simple is better, especially if you like shooting more than reloading.
A pal of mine (who no longer shoots due to failing eyesight and other health issues) used to go the whole nine yards - weighing/sorting bullets, weighing charges, checking cases for concentricity, wall thickness, indexing bullets and cases, etc., etc. Because I had the guns, he wanted to drag me along this route.
I told him that I'd quit shooting first. Paper patching? It is to laugh ..... It's enough of a PITA to make up paper cartridges for my '63's.
I cast good bullets, anneal, trim, put cases thru' my RCBS case prep machine, weigh charges 'lectronically, taper crimp. That's all, folks.
Your recipe (not your friend's) pretty much sounds like my recipe except that I add that I drill out the flash holes. I started doing that because Wolf recommended it in his book. Then after doing it to a couple of batches of brass, I found that W-W brass has VERY inconsistent flash hole size and that by drilling it out they are going to be more consistent. And I don't weigh BP. I throw them by volume and drop tube them. Other guys will produce more accurate loads, but I don't shoot well enough to need any more accuracy than what my loads produce.
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Hey PJ, he's got a .45-70! ;D
But its pretty much the same. My load is the same Lee 4.0cc dipper of OE 3f, leveled with an old credit card, under the Lee 405 HB, OAL of 2.55". I use a Winchester WLR primer, Starline brass, and uniform the primer holes. Lube in the lube grooves, with the base empty and clean. Powder slowly poured into the case with a Drop Tube. This gives light compression with the bullet. Do not use wads with a hollow base bullet, they can cock in the hollow and cause flyers. Plain base bullets can be used, but they must be a Black Powder design, with generous lube capacity. Adjust powder as needed to ensure light compression. (defined as no more than the depth of one driving band on the bullet) or use a card wad to achieve same.
I cast these hot, preheating the mold on a hot plate. I keep only the ones that are fully filled out, any round edges are thrown back in the pot, or set aside for plinking/armidillo loads. Frosted appearance does not bother me.
28 grains 5744 under this bullet works well.
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28 grs of 5744 works well in the 45-70 as well with both 420 and 350 gr bullets.
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Back out to the farm again today (70 degrees!) 5 more rounds, same loading, one big hole in the paper plate at 50 yards. It seems be on at 50, so now I engaged a 10" steel plate at 100 yards, holding at the bottom of the plate. 5 rounds, 5 hits. Though you do have to wait a while for the wildly swinging target to stabilize.
Went looking for another armidillo. They stayed hid today.
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Hi, will you get 60 shots with that load without cleaning? That's one bad match's worth.
I drill the flash holes on all my reloads except the Hornady 30-40 looked to good to bother with.
Later
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Well, so far the most I've put thru it is 11 rounds at one time. The bore had well defined lands and grooves, and good shine all the way to the muzzle, no dry hard fouling, nice greasy muzzle. The Lee 515450 (and Lymans 515141) is a duplicate of the original military bullet, and carries lots of lubricant. Cleaning has been a tapwater patch, a dry patch, and a couple of Ballistol patchs.
I usually run a wet patch down the bore between skirmish runs, so I don't think there will be any fouling problems with this load. That's up in Nebraska, with really low humidity. I might try shooting a whole match down here in MO without anything other than a few breaths down the barrel now and then. I've done this with a Trapdoor carbine, the 22" barrels are a lot easier to maintain than the 30"+ barrels.
You come down here in March, you'll get to see if it works.
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One other thing: In Croft Barkers book on the .50-70, he describes in the "Tuning" chapter, coating the lockwork in heavy automotive (Wheel bearing) grease for a significant improvement. I have some thick white biodegradable grease used for gears in electric trains, and decided to try packing the lock with that. Tacky stuff, designed to stay put.
It made a perceptible improvement. My Trapdoors and Spencer will be getting the same treatment. I suspect it would not make much difference on the bolt actions, but for big hammer lockwork I think this makes a lot of sense. Especially in actions where the lockwork is protected from any gas/fouling coming off the breech.
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Hi, will you get 60 shots with that load without cleaning? That's one bad match's worth.
You can run a rod through it in between stages. ::)
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A skinny funnel and a canteen work wonders!
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2 armadillos today! A big one ran into a brush/leaf pile as I drew a bead on him. Stood quiet for a while, then blew his head off when he poked it out. (Only 8 paces or so). On the back ridge, disemboweled another with a stern shot from 30 paces. Saw a 3rd one, rooting next to my truck (!) as I walked back. I kept trying to quarter round to get a shot, but he finally took off. Tried a running shot, dug dirt out from under him, must have cut some belly hair off the critter. Got into the brush.
Its a target rich environment out there!
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While driving my route, I saw a girl out in her hard taking pictures of a big armadillo. Then she was throwing rocks at it, but from pretty far away. I guess nobody told her you can usually walk up within 20-30 feet of one pretty easily. Being on the job, I was unarmed >:( but I'm pretty sure I could get close enough to one to take it with my .380.
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2 armadillos today! A big one ran into a brush/leaf pile as I drew a bead on him. Stood quiet for a while, then blew his head off when he poked it out. (Only 8 paces or so). On the back ridge, disemboweled another with a stern shot from 30 paces. Saw a 3rd one, rooting next to my truck (!) as I walked back. I kept trying to quarter round to get a shot, but he finally took off. Tried a running shot, dug dirt out from under him, must have cut some belly hair off the critter. Got into the brush.
Its a target rich environment out there!
Did you use the .50-70? Good thing if you did. You never know when they might charge!
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With my wife on a walk one fine fall day, I took four Ruffed Grouse with my 50-70 Shiloh Military rifle using smokeless loads.
Three were head shots on treed birds, the fourth was a body shot. There was a .50 entry hole and a .50 exit flap hole.
Quite a step from the six point Mule deer and two large black bears, but that was all the game that showed up.
The 50-70 will do it all!
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Any Marine will tell you, that a .50 is a comforting thing to be around.
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The .50-70 is just about my favorite rifle round in either my '68 rifle or my '70 carbine!
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As a 300 pace/yard/meter combat/field cartridge, its about as good as a BP cartridge gets. Too bad the Franco-Prussian war made everybody think warfare was going to be 1000 yard volley fire!
I'm putting this thread to bed. This particular carbine in this chambering is two thumbs up. Spare parts are easy to get, VTI/Taylors/Cimarron all show parts in stock. Allready have a spare firing pin just in case.
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We’re you shooting into the trees with a bullet or shot loads?
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We’re you shooting into the trees with a bullet or shot loads?
Lyman 515141 450 gr bullets/28 grs 5744.
I tried shot loads in my 50-70 MR and gave it up as a bad job after I hit a beautiful Blue Grouse that flew off. Might work on Starlings, but not on a quality game bird.
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Back in Stock at Buds Gun Shop.
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I have an origional 1863 converted to 50/70. There are telltale signs of the Lawrence priming system, will take & post pictures of hammer, & remnants of the Lawrence priming system.
Brian
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4.0 CC about right for 70 grains?? May need to weigh that and set my powder measure to throw that weight
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4.0cc is 65 grains OE 3f. It will depend on the powder brand and granulation, all are a bit different. As you say, weigh it and set your measure accordingly.
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well there is the volume vs weight grain thingy. Will be screwing around with 0E 2 and 1.5 FFG and Shuetzen 2 and 3 F
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Numbers are not all that important. It's how much of your powder, will your cases hold, drop tubed, beneath the desired bullet with the desired compression.
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Pretty sure this BP stuff is more Voodoo than science. In anycase will try to get the 88 TD to shoot. Trying 405 Grain Hollow Base in .458 and .460 and a Flatbase desparado and various Montana Bullets 460-535 grainers
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Pretty sure this BP stuff is more Voodoo than science. In anycase will try to get the 88 TD to shoot. Trying 405 Grain Hollow Base in .458 and .460 and a Flatbase desparado and various Montana Bullets 460-535 grainers
which sight does it have?
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www.wideopenspaces.com/black-powder-cartridge-reloading-made-easy-larry-potterfield-midway-usa/
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In my view, the best rule of thumb for black powder loading of cartridges which were originally developed with BP as the propellant is to figure out (as Dtydock has already indicated) the amount of powder which will completely fill the case and be a bit compressed when the bullet is seated. Cartridge casings back then were sized to fit the intended charge with a bit of compressed ...
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Pitspitr
The Buffington
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If you are looking to build a load for long range that will hit point of aim with the Buffington sights you will want a 500 grain bullet (.460). SAECO and NEI make moulds for the M-1881 Govt. bullet. I don't know if Mount Baldy is still producing the bullets or not but they were very good.
For the Skirmish match I use the carbine load. 55 Gr. FF and the 405gr hollow base bullet. At those ranges it doesn't seem as important that the POI and the sights settings are the same.
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Will 55 Gr. fill the case? Are you also using some sort of filler?
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I think the standard method with the hollow base bullet is to simply seat it deeper. I use a 405gre flat base with a 3/8 wad unser it, but that might stick in a hollow base and cause problems.
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I do use a ox-yoke wonder wad in my 45/55 load. I have to compress pretty heavily. I started using it to try to get enough lube so as to not foul out. It doesn't seem to bother accuracy at our ranges.
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Get on the Shiloh forum or subscribe to the BPCN and you'll get any number of opinions on compression, drop tubing, powder settling - the need for it or not.
Most BPCR silhouette shooters go the compression/drop tube route, the amount depending on the grade and brand of the powder.
Way back when I bought my first H&R Cavalry carbine, I simply dumped in 55 grs of FFg and seated my 'as cast' 405 gr bullets, lubed with bicycle wheel bearing grease. Who knew that wasn't supposed to work?
I recall hitting anything I wanted to. Out to 200 yds off hand, no watermelon sized rock was safe!
Long gone days of innocence .....
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And, (at least in my case) "Long gone days of" eyesight good enough to do it off hand. :'(