Determining Money Belt Length

[1961MJS]

Hi

I've got Will's Money Belt Pattern and it says 7 inches longer than your belt size.  I currently shoot with one of David Carrico's Fair Weather Christian belts, so it doesn't have any belt going through a keeper, it has a Civil War Officer's belt plate.  That's the only cartridge Belt I own.  I want to make my own rig for cowboy action shooting and I think it might be best to use the Marshal's two belt idea.  I measured around where the belt would hang.  How much of a money belt needs to go back through the keeper?

Any directions on belt length would be helpful.  I plan on ordering enough 4 ounce leather for 2 belts soon.

Later

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Double crossed belts are great if you are slim or not very wide in the butt. I look forward to seeing photos of your rig.

As to how much goes through the keeper, I'd say enough to allow for an inch or two of growth (yours, that is  ). Other than that, I'm not too sure what information you're looking for.

[1961MJS]

Hi

I have the Fair Weather Christian belt at 44 inches and it's a bit loose now.  Working from home and not hitting restaurants lost me 15 pounds so far.  I used a tape measure and got 42 inches with the tape on my left hip and the right side down say an inch or two.  I think that Will Ghormley's measurement of belt size plus 7 would mean that there's supposed to be quite a bit of belt behind the buckle. 

I think I could get  leather that's at least 7.5 inches wide by 50 inches long (43 plus 7) and be more or less close.  I can always cut a bit off I guess.  Just asking the question helped a little.

Later

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[Trailrider]

By "money belt" I assume you mean a belt with separate tongue and buckle billet, both sewn to the belt body.  In the instance of a money belt, the buckle billet is sewn only through the outside layer of the folded piece of leather.  My belts are size-plus-8 inches for the body. I use a 14-inch long piece of 7-8 oz leather for the tongue, which is tapered at each end, and the rear of the tongue is stitched to the body about 13-3/4 inches from the end of the body.  I punch holes in the tongue with the basic hole that matches the size you want. Then I punch holes three inches looser and two tighter.  This leaves enough room for adjustment. The buckle billet is a piece of 4-5 oz. leather with a slot for the tongue in the middle and the piece folded in half.  The buckle is positioned so the end is about even with the other end of the belt.

If you want to see one of mine, go to www.gunfighter.com/trailrider . Scroll down to "Cartridge Belts & Buckles" and look at the middle belt in the picture.  [Note: This is NOT a solicitation for business, simply information.]

Hope this helps, Pard.  Stay well!

[1961MJS]

Thanks Trailrider

I'm also using the Miller-Fechet holster you made for me a couple of years back.  I have LOTS of time on my hands working from home.

Later

[Cliff Fendley]

What keeper are you talking about? For the belt tongue? If you are talking about the extra keeper in the back that a lot of cartridge belts have that captures the belt body that is not correct for a money belt. In fact they are not period correct at all for a 19th century belt. Someone like Buck can chime in that has collected far more than me but any of my originals and any originals I've ever seen do not have that keeper for the belt body in the back.

The money belts tongue goes through a slot in the belt body and then into the buckle so it keeps the belt closed up while wearing it.

The buckle billets, tongue, and cartidge loops are all sewn on the front side leaving a hollow belt.

[Coffinmaker]

First a Disclaimer.  I'm not a leather crafter.  Have never made a Gun Belt, and did not stay in a Holliday Inn Express (that I admit to).  But Further .....

The length of the Money Belt, might should be driven by the amount of MONEY you wanna stuff innit??  Makes sense to me.  Sort of.

Hey.  It's Monday.  We be stuck at home.  I'm bored.  It's the best I can do on short notice.  Gimmie a BREAK.  You may, of course ignore this nattering nothingness and I shan't be offended in the slightest.  Or not.  Budweiser.

[1961MJS]

What keeper are you talking about? For the belt tongue? If you are talking about the extra keeper in the back that a lot of cartridge belts have that captures the belt body that is not correct for a money belt. In fact they are not period correct at all for a 19th century belt. Someone like Buck can chime in that has collected far more than me but any of my originals and any originals I've ever seen do not have that keeper for the belt body in the back.

The money belts tongue goes through a slot in the belt body and then into the buckle so it keeps the belt closed up while wearing it.

The buckle billets, tongue, and cartidge loops are all sewn on the front side leaving a hollow belt.

Hi Cliff
Yes, I was talking about the Not PC keeper.  Again, I haven't WORN a money belt.  I have two gun belts, one is a Blade Tech for a Glock, and the other is a Fair Weather Christian.  In at least some respects, the question of how much overlap of the part of the money belt the money goes in stands. 

Considering that there's a slot in the belt body for the tongue to hit the buckle, is the keeper that much help anyway?

Thanks

[Buck Stinson]

You're  right Cliff.  In fact, I've  never seen a money belt or single thickness belt from the 1875 to 1890 period that had a keeper  (it's actually called a standing loop).  There isn't a standard to follow as far as overlap is concerned.  Most saddle makers did their own thing and the patterns they used were of their own design.  For example, Frank Meanea and J. S. Collins, both in Cheyenne, placed the billets on the money belts they made clear out near the end of the belt.  So in this case, there was little if any overlap, depending on the waist size range on the belt.  On the money belts I  make, the overlap is about 3 inches at the center hole.

[Skeeter Lewis]

Crossed belts are notoriously tricky. They just won't stay in position. Powers Booth wore them as Curly Bill in Tombstone, and it's my bet they were fixed together.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

With double crossed belts, I keep them in place with tie-downs. With those they work great. Fixing them together as Skeeter says might be a thing to think about.

[1961MJS]

Thanks, since this is all experimental, I'll make the money belt and both holsters the same way.  I plan on making the left hand the inner belt, but will make the holster loop large enough to go over the money belt just in case.  If the inner /outer thing doesn't work I'll go back to one belt. 

I had originally planned on making the left holster for a thinner belt because I didn't think putting on two full cartridge belts would be all that comfortable.

I'll post pictures when I get a chance.  Working from home another month from what I hear.

Thanks for the help.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I wouldn't worry too much about making the belt loops fit the belts exactly. I have used several sets of holsters and the size of the belt loop isn't that critical with tie-downs.

In these photos, notice the Cheyenne style holsters. Large belt loops. The belt on the top, in this case the right holster belt, holds the other one securely in place. The belt keeps the left holster from riding up. The tie-down on the right holster keeps it from shifting. I tried the double belts with no keepers but it is possible to yank that right pistol and lift the belt up enough to allow it to shift around, causing a potential for problems when you stuff the pistol back in. It's the only concession I have to historically accurate holsters. My more recent rigs use Slimjim style holsters and I make the loops long enough to fit on the narrow part of the shotgun belt. You could probably plan the billet of the money belt to be the place for the holster to ride. Just postition your buckles off to the opposite side appropriately. I hope all this jawboning helps you with your planning.

[1961MJS]

Thanks Marshal, that's what I was envisioning.  I didn't see any necessity in centering the buckle(s).  I think I"ll tack a small loop on the back of the holsters to put tie downs through, that way if I don't need them, they won't be obvious.

Later

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Glad the photos helped. I just punched two holes through the back of the toe before stitching but if I take the tie-downs off, it's a major undertaking to get them threaded back through again when needed. A small loop on the back could be a simple solution to that. Looking forward to seeing your rig.

[Cliff Fendley]

You're  right Cliff.  In fact, I've  never seen a money belt or single thickness belt from the 1875 to 1890 period that had a keeper  (it's actually called a standing loop).  There isn't a standard to follow as far as overlap is concerned.  Most saddle makers did their own thing and the patterns they used were of their own design.  For example, Frank Meanea and J. S. Collins, both in Cheyenne, placed the billets on the money belts they made clear out near the end of the belt.  So in this case, there was little if any overlap, depending on the waist size range on the belt.  On the money belts I  make, the overlap is about 3 inches at the center hole.

Buck thanks for your input and knowledge, you've probably seen more original 19th century stuff than most of us ever will. I only wish I had paid more attention and started collecting more old leather when I was young and when it was everywhere and more affordable.