Class Names: For Comment

[Drydock]

True, but remember, the MLM does not have charger capapbility, so it has to be loaded one round at a time thru the top of the action. And only the first model with the 8 round mag would qualify.    Same for the tube magazine Kropatshek.

I could even disqualify the MLM, because it was designed for smokeless, but the ammunition was not ready yet, so they went with a compressed BP charge.

[RattlesnakeJack]

One other thought:  "milspec" is very "latter 20th century" in origin .....

"Military Rifle" (.... or "Battle Rifle" ....) are more in keeping with the historical ambiance of the GAF, in my view.

[Drydock]

That's a good point, so I changed it to "Military".  (See above, reply 14)

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[pony express]

Slightly off topic for class names, but still related.....

I recall some discussion at the Muster about changing the way we shoot pistol targets for "Infantry" class, I suggested adding bayonet targets, but I think Ned wasn't interested in coming up with so many targets,thought maybe stage a shotgun instead for the pistol targets. I was just thinking ..,... Since we're not really enforcing the "targets must fall" for pistol anyway, why not substitute cardboard silhouette targets like we used for the Zoot match? Shoot them with a pistol, stick them with a bayonet, either way. Seems like it wouldn't take any more time to stick a paster on a bullet or bayonet hole than to re-set the knock downs. It would probably require more substantial supports for the targets, probably braced with a couple of T-post on each one, so the bayonet drills wouldn't tear it down too easily. Maybe even add a ketchup packet to hit for a bonus score, like we did at C.O.W.S. before.

[Stu Kettle]

Ennyways, keep commenting.  Nothings set, I just want to hear ideas.

Something else I noticed - in the scout class you specify "lever action" instead of "repeater".  That would seem to exclude slide action rifles, one of which I saw in action this year.  Forager class, which I would rather call forager scout, (likewise for buffalo scout), also seems to neglect the slide action.

I also like Pony's idea about providing an option for infantry class to engage the pistol targets.  I like the bayonet idea, or perhaps a butt-stroke.  I don't like the paper target idea though - that would make more work for Jerry & Dale, as week as more expense, while taking away the reactive targets that are much more fun.

[Pitspitr]

I also like Pony's idea about providing an option for infantry class to engage the pistol targets.  I like the bayonet idea, or perhaps a butt-stroke.  I don't like the paper target idea though - that would make more work for Jerry & Dale, as week as more expense, while taking away the reactive targets that are much more fun.

I'm sort of of the opinion that, at least at my range, our pistol targets are far enough away what we can still shoot them with the rifle. Bayonet targets are good, but I'm uncomfortable with butt stroking the targets as the rifle would end up pointed back in the general direction of the RO, Brassers, and spectators.

[Niederlander]

I would tend to agree with Jerry about muzzle direction during the rifle butt stroke.  (I personally always found the bayonet jab to be more effective during pugil stick fighting anyway!)  I'll be giving some thought to how to improve the bayonet portion of the stages, but I do think our pistol targets are far enough out to shoot with the rifle.  Keep the thoughts coming!

[Pitspitr]

-Military Single Shot- 2 gun BP and smokeless

-Military Repeater- 2 gun BP and smokeless

-Military Rifleman- 1 gun BP and smokeless

-Military Handgunner- 1 gun BP and smokeless

-Milita- Civilian Rifle Caliber Repeater and any GAF handgun, BP and smokeless

-Scout- Pistol caliber lever action and Single Action revolver, BP and smokeless

-Buffalo- Civilian Single Shot and Single Action Revolver, BP and smokeless

-Forager- Single Shot/Double barrel/lever action shotgun and Single Action Revolver, BP and smokeless


Jack, note that BP is always first, and smokeless is always with a small "s".  

I'm also thinking (take cover) of a possible modification sometime in the future, though I might like to try it out with the 1 gun rifle class:

Instead of dividing by powder and action type, simply divide by powder, with one caveat: If your rife was designed for Smokeless, then you shoot smokeless.  No loading your Krag with BP just to run against the Trapdoors.

This puts the Spencers and Vetterlli's against the Martini's and Rolling blocks, just as in history.  And where they'd be the most competitive.  I don't think these early repeaters have much if any advantage over the Single shots, especially in the Skirmish format. Particularly if you made both start empty!  It might also make some folks load up Black to avoid running Trapdoors and such against later design repeaters like the Krag or Mausers.

For a Cowboy format it might be different, but no reason we can't have a Skirmish rule for the Skirmish format . . . I think . . .

I like these options

[pony express]

If needed, we could mark a minimum distance for engaging the pistol targets. What I was thinking with the cardboard Bayonet/pistol targets was to add a couple to a stage, not really get rid of all the pistol knockdowns.

OTOH, .... if we had a bayonet target, maybe it should be for all military class shooters, to encourage shooters to get bayonets, too. But then carbines might feel left out...

[Pitspitr]

OTOH, .... if we had a bayonet target, maybe it should be for all military class shooters, to encourage shooters to get bayonets, too. But then carbines might feel left out...

Naw, they'd just use sabres. 

[Stu Kettle]

Naw, they'd just use sabres. 

& us scouts all carry a pig-sticker of some sort.

& You're right Jerry, the butt stroke idea won't pass safety protocol.

[Drydock]

Naw, just walk past and pop 'em from behind.

[Drydock]

Stu, I just noticed your later comments, and you're right about the Scout class, so i ammended it.  I must point out though that we do NOT allow pump actions in our Main match forager class.  They are only allowed in the EoE skirmish.

And I think I'm going to shoot Forager in the EoE myself next year.  Probably with my 1887. 

[pony express]

And I think I'm going to shoot Forager in the EoE myself next year.  Probably with my 1887. 

Was thinking about shooting forager as a second class in EOE, too, but since we had so many shooters signed up, I didn't even bring it. Winchester Model 12, in my Navy uniform, since there's at least one picture floating around with a sailor at Vera Cruz with a pump shotgun and a 1911.

[Drydock]

That would look just damn cool.  And whites FEEL cool too.

[River City John]

My only comment, as far as a small improvement to the excellent class divisions Drydock has put forward, is to add "/bolt action" to the appropriate category.
Looking as an outsider, I would be hard put to guess which class a bolt action should be considered as falling into, Repeater or Rifleman.

(Heck, even Single shot, as these aren't automatics, they ALL fire one shot at a time . . . )

My givens and druthers would be keep designations as historically appropriate to late 19th century nomenclature as possible.

RCJ
 
     

[Stu Kettle]

Stu, I just noticed your later comments, and you're right about the Scout class, so i ammended it.  I must point out though that we do NOT allow pump actions in our Main match forager class.  They are only allowed in the EoE skirmish.

And I think I'm going to shoot Forager in the EoE myself next year.  Probably with my 1887. 

That might be fun. Are slugs allowed?  I load 1oz pumpkin balls at about 1200 fps - ought to work on our knockdowns

[Bat 2919]

Naw, they'd just use sabres. 

I resemble that remark; I would have to guess I'm not the first to have done that over the years. 

I guess I better start looking for a 1860 saber to go with my carbine, I don't think my EEM 1902 would look right.

[Drydock]

Shoulda wore my Cutlass . . .

[Bow View Haymaker]

Great discussion. 
I like most of the changes.  the marksman / rifleman always confused me.

I think that the military classes are just about right.

I do have an idea on the civilian classes.   (Stu, you might not like this) The term scout doesn't really describe any type of weapon.  I believe that the different scouts probably used a variety of weapons and each may have had there favorite form the same as the military arms of the unit they worked with to the latest best available to some antiquated piece that had been with them for years.  So maybe use the term to designate all civilian classes but not one particular weapon class.

first put the pistol caliber lever action at the bottom of the list just because that seems to be the entry class.  and call it "cowboy" or cowboy scout"  to indicate that SASS / NCOWS shooters can use the same guns the use in those matches

Buffalo, or buffalo scout seems ok,  or could be change to hunter,  buffalo hunter, or hunter scout. 

forager, or forager scout is just right.

Militia, I am not sure.  (Please don't court martial me for considering this)  I almost think it should be considered with the military classes, since the name implies military service.  The rifles are as slow to load and most only hold 5 rounds just like the bolt actions.  I know they were not standard military arms but often in use by home guards, rebels and such. and often A uniform or some sort was worn.  Otherwise maybe a name change to something like big-bore cowboy, or big-bore scout.  Also it should be listed just below the military classes, as It seems like the next step. 

All like a ladder from the CAS guns, up to a hunter or the militia class, to a one or two gun military class, to the ultimate of military single shot or repeater using the proper powder for the arm and the proper uniform for the period and arm as the goal we can reach for if so inclined.

so how about this?  :
militia  (maybe considered a military class) 
hunter
forager
cowboy

or: (keep the scout designation for ALL civilian classes)
big-bore scout or Rifle scout
hunter scout or buffalo scout
forager scout
cowboy scout

or:
civilian repeater or rifle repeater
buffalo hunter
forager or bird hunter
CAS Scout or CAS cowboy.

i believe that this would make it more clear that UNIFORMS and MILITARY  rifles are not required to participate.
These are the civilian classes and the guns that any CAS shooter would already have are acceptable.  The main point would be use the word cowboy or CAS for the pistol caliber rifle class for the reasons mentioned.

Personally I like the first list but that is only my opinion, and these are just my simple ideas.

started as a cowboy scout, and still reaching....