Still fighting my .45 Spencer

[Macon Due]

Howdy all

As some of you know from my prior post....I bought a new Cimarron Spencer in .45 Colt a while back and have had lots of problems with it. I hesitate to send it to Cimarron as they told me it would be a minimum of 2 months and if parts were needed to be ordered it could be "several" months more on top of that. So I am asking for recommendations for a cowboy gunsmith that can get my Spencer to feed. It has been a lemon from day one. The trigger pull was over 20 lbs. and I got that down to just under 6 lbs. Then the action suddenly would only open about 2/3 of the way. I also got that resolved but I am stymied on the feeding problems. I have loaded cartridges from 1.600" down to 1.570" and no matter what I have jams and malfunctions. Yes ,I know you need to work the lever like you mean it with a Spencer. So......anyhow, does someone know of a really good reproduction, Spencer  gunsmith?

Thank you.......Macon Due # 29445

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Macon Due:
Please share what was done to reduce the trigger pull. 
Many thanks,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Macon Due]

El
 I removed the lock and lubed the lock work just a touch and narrowed the main/sear spring. I tried it and went back out and narrowed it just a touch more and then polished the spring. I lubed the lock work again and installed the spring and now have a smooth trigger pull of just under 6 lbs. I sorta followed these directions...... [I did two things to lighten the trigger pull.  First, the screws holding the arbor or yoke on the back side of the lock platre did not have a long enough unthreaded shank. Tightened down, they bound up on the action. I loosened them a tad (using locktight to hold them) and it lightened up quite a bit.  Next, I trimmed off about 1/3 of the side of the bottom of the mainspring. which engages the sear. DO NOT CUT ANY OFF OF THE HAIRPIN END, BUT START FROM THE SEAR END BY THE SEAR, GOING TO JUST SHORT OF THE PIN THAT ENGAGES THE SIDE PLATE. THis is usually more than enough.  This is easier and safer than thinning the spring, which if done un-evenly will cause the spring to stress in the thinnest spot and sometimes snap. If you do thin the spring, USE A DREMMEL AND AN EMORY SANDING DRUM, continually moving it back and forth, keeping it even.]  It sure helped mine a bunch ...Macon

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[Macon Due]

I did contact Cody Conagher and think I will send my Spencer to him.
Macon Due

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Macon Due:

Big help, especially about the bridle screws restricting tumbler movement.  I have seen that in others.

Your feeding issue can be from many factors. I had a lot of difficulty at first and found the spring under the cartridge feed guide (finger-like flipper on top of receiver) was weak. Replacement with a stronger one helped. 

If the parts are ok, a Spencer should feed ctg's within a range of overall lengths.  Bullet nose shape and hardness matter for cycling smoothness.  I use hard alloy.  Cycling chews noses, loosens bullets in case mouths and can change the ctg's OAL.  Because of this ctg damage, after a couple cycles each, I have to file away the raised gouge edges and try to recrimp the cases. PLEASE, use only dummy ctg's to test cycle.  When fumbling and jacking the lever back and forth, I have had dummy ctg's firmly lodge against the tip of the cartridge feed guide! If a primer had been in that ....

The rhythm of moving the lever matters. Try to minimize the hesitation at the bottom of the lowering arc and quickly lift it with a firm continuous motion to force the following round rearward a bit.  Being used to operating Winchester's, I could not achieve the cadence and hesitated as the upward motion of the lever reached the spot of pushing the next round slightly rearward. Another person easily cycled my test rounds!  Try feeding with only one round in mag tube.  If that works, then the second round's resistance under mag tube spring pressure is a factor.

There are lots of posts about the magazine tube spring being another factor and how to diagnose its issues.  One thing, please; never stretch a coil spring. That usually damages it.  A spacer can be used to make it a bit stronger.

I found Cody Conagher at Cowboy Gunshop, Berkeley Springs, WV.  Please tell us what he finds. Thanks.   Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Macon Due]

El
Thank you, good information. On mine it actually seems at times like the 'cartridge feed guide  has too strong of a spring....like it keeps the rear of the cartridge pushed down and causes the round to catch/drag on the chamber mouth, causing a feeding problem.
Macon

[Galen]

What did Christopher Miner Spencer know that we don't? The rifle he designed worked all without computers.

[Sedalia Dave]

El
Thank you, good information. On mine it actually seems at times like the 'cartridge feed guide  has too strong of a spring....like it keeps the rear of the cartridge pushed down and causes the round to catch/drag on the chamber mouth, causing a feeding problem.
Macon

It's not the spring for the cartridge guide.

The problem is part index 51 in the attached picture needs some re-profiling.  Most likely it is the wrong height. If it is too tall the cartridge will sit to high and hit the top of the chamber. Too low and the cartridge will hit the bottom.

Another function of this part is to hold part index 49 in the correct orientation. This part does double duty in the reproductions. It is the case extractor and it functions as a cartridge stop.  When you open the action this part in conjunction with the feed guide is what stops the round coming out of the magazine tube and onto the carrier.

I had a reproduction rifle in 56-50 that wouldn't feed if there was more than one round in the magazine. Discovered that part #51 was most likely for a 45 Scholfield and not a 56-50. When compared to the same part from a working 56-50 the difference in profile was obvious.  Ordered a replacement and with a little fitting it cleared up all of the feeding issues.

A little tip. If the pins that hold parts 49 and 51 are really hard to remove, chuck them in your drill and using very fine emory paper, reduce their diameter until they fit better. They still need to fit snugly enough so that they don't move but it shouldn't require an excessive amount of force with a large hammer to remove them. Go slow and sand one end at a time test fitting as you go. Once it can be tapped in then do the other end.

[El Supremo]

Big thanks, Sedalia Dave:

May I please suggest that your post be added to the SORI Section. 

There are CAS/SSS Members with 56-50  barrel stamped Armisport Spencer's that will not cycle 56-50 cartridges because, in at least one, importer admitted instance, a 56-50 barrel was ("probably") put on a 45 Colt!
 
Big pat on the shoulder.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Sedalia Dave]

Big thanks, Sedalia Dave:

May I please suggest that your post be added to the SORI Section. 

There are CAS/SSS Members with 56-50  barrel stamped Armisport Spencer's that will not cycle 56-50 cartridges because, in at least one, importer admitted instance, a 56-50 barrel was ("probably") put on a 45 Colt!
 
Big pat on the shoulder.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

Thanks and Sure.

It'll take me till sometime next week. but I'll pull my breech block, photograph it and add some markups.

Besides mine I know of one other ArmiSport Spencer that had the same issue.

[Macon Due]

Sedalia Dave
It sounds like you are much more knowledable about the Spencer that I am. Do you happen to work on them? If not, do you know of a gunsmith that does work on the Cimarron Spencers?
Thank you for your time...... Macon Due

[Macon Due]

Well,I sent my Spencer back to Cimarron who sent it to Chiappa in Ohio. I spoke with a gunsmith at Chiappa who wanted to impress on me that the Spencer was a semi poor design from the start and the originals were not 100% in function so I should not expect that from mine either. :'(  It is repaired and, on the way, back, supposed to be here on Thursday.  I sure hope it functions better than it did new.
Macon

[Shenandoah]

Cody worked on my trigger pull and did a good job.

[Macon Due]

Shenandoah
I got my trigger pull down to about what I wanted.
Today UPS delivered my Spencer back to me. I have been running practice rounds thru it and as long as you work it briskly it functions fine now. If you dink around or work the action too slowly it will sorta hang up causing you to have to 'jiggle' the lever/action a touch and then it feeds that round. I tried to work it very slowly and it jammed on me. So I guess at this point I am satisfied.
Macon

[Shenandoah]

I've has 3 of the replicas. Two in 44 russian were terrible. The one I now have in 56-50 shoots well and feeds best when operated with authority.

[Trailrider]

Shenandoah
I got my trigger pull down to about what I wanted.
Today UPS delivered my Spencer back to me. I have been running practice rounds thru it and as long as you work it briskly it functions fine now. If you dink around or work the action too slowly it will sorta hang up causing you to have to 'jiggle' the lever/action a touch and then it feeds that round. I tried to work it very slowly and it jammed on me. So I guess at this point I am satisfied.
Macon

Chris Spencer intended to sell the rifle to the Army. Unfortunately, the Chief of Ordnance was an old ultra-conservative when it came to arms, who not only didn't like repeaters, he didn't really approve of muzzle loaders fired with percussion caps (although he was pretty much stuck with those by then). So Spencer got a naval officer who knew somebody to be allowed to demonstrate his repeater to this Western-born, lawyer politician who actually fired one himself, and after being shown "the inwardness of the thing", recommended the Spencer to be produced for the Army and Navy. Gen. Ripley couldn't very well reject the recommendation, since the politician was not only his boss, but Commander-in-Chief, Abraham Lincoln!
Spencer designed the repeater to be worked sharply, since it would be used when the shooter was being shot at, and slow action was not the thing to do!  So work it quick!

[Macon Due]

Trailrider
Yep, it must be worked with authority. Lincoln getting the Spencer adopted was a big part of us losing the war.
Macon

[Trailrider]

Trailrider
Yep, it must be worked with authority. Lincoln getting the Spencer adopted was a big part of us losing the war.
Macon

War would have been over a lot quicker if Spencer had the capability to produce them a lot faster. Think what might have been the result at the Little Big Horn if Custer had been able to arm his troops with Spencer's like his Wolverines had against JEB Stuart at Gettysburg. Spencer's made the difference at Beecher Island. Unfortunately for Christopher, after the war there wasn't enough demand for his rifles and carbines to keep his business going. Winchester took the business over and killed the arm as it was in competition with the Henry and '66! Spencer did go on to develop a repeating shotgun, and, more importantly to machining technology, he invented the automatic screw machine. He lived long enough for him to ride in an airplane, flown by his son!

[Johnson Barr]

 My .44 Russian had feeding issues until I switched to a longer more gentle ojive bullet nose. Typical short bunt RNFP bullets tended to hang the first two or three rounds when cycled. The magazine retainer bar dropping lower to retain the shorter more blunt bullet nose created more friction between retainer bar and next round coming out of the magazine. Initially I began using a Lyman .44-40 casting that created a longer more gentle ogive ahead of the crimp groove. I was buying these from Budget Bullets; bulletmen.com. Sadly they
are no more. Search for a replacement took me to Accurate Bullet Moulds. These 'new' castings weigh in at 220gns. vs. the Budget bullet at 210gns. The Accurate casting has the same length from crimp groove to nose, but the ojive is even more gentle with a smaller diameter meplate tip. Cycling the lever still requires briskly throwing the lever 'to and fro' but all seven rounds come and go bang properly.   
   

[El Supremo]

Hello, and thanks, Johnson Barr:
Please share Accurate's bullet number you use in 44 Russian.  Tx.
El Supremo