A Poll about your bullets

[AntiqueSledMan]

Mako,

Hoof recomended going with the .45 Colt,
but at the time I thought I wanted to keep it a six shooter.
It's just a Howell Cylinder installed on a 5-1/2" Pietta 1858.
Loading isn't so bad, I do know peopel are afraid of the heeled bullets.
I built my own crimping die while I was still working.
I also had plans on making a cylinder for my Pietta 1851 fantasy 44 cal,
but after retirement I no longer have access to the equipment.
Attached is a photo of my loaded cartridge.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Mako]

Yep, you're using a lee factory crimper.  How is it modified?

Lee doesn't make the collet crimper in .44 Russian through .44 Mag., you have to modify a .44-40 because Lee considers that a rifle cartridge.  Which do you have, a shortened die or a shell holder extension?

Do you normally lube that groove and if you do, how do you do it?   I saw something where Gary or someone who had a conversion (might have been Long Johns Wolf) was using a lubrisizer upside down with the bullet already seated and crimped in the case. and I can't remember if he had a modified sizing die or not to hold it.

I want to modify the Lee .44 collet itself to have the radius instead of the "flat crimp" I want to have the equivalent of a "roll crimp".  When it's crimped it will look more like a conventional pistol die roll crimp and be fully engaged in the crimp groove. I have an extra .44 crimp die I bought to modify, I use the other one for my .44 WCF so I won't collapse the neck.  But I don't get those HARD crimps I like.  They help build pressure and actually keep you chambers clear (little blow back around the shell).  If it works for one it will work for both.  The radius modification that is, the die lengths will be different

One last thing, which bullet and mold is that?

Thank you for sharing.  I knew you were going to tell me he tried to get you to go with .45 COLT.  I'm like you I prefer to keep it closer to the original.  The straight cylinder and 5 rounds look great to him, and he should be proud of his work, but I would want it closer to an original conversion.

~Mako

[AntiqueSledMan]

Mako,

I used a Lee 44-40 Factory Crimp Die, removed the collet,
shortened the die body by 1/4", and built a new collet for the 44 Colt Original.
The bullet is a LEE 450-200-1R, with a heel swaged on the base.
I believe Howell has quit offering the .44 Colt Cylinder, sales must have been very low,
they did question if I really wanted the .44 Colt so I sent them a picture of the headstamp.
It was plug and play, absolutly no modifications were neccesary.
Since all of this I have done two Pietta 1851 .44 caliber conversions.
One with the Howell Cylinder, and one with the Kirst Gated Cylinder.
Both are done in .45 Colt, and are only 5 shot.
Timing was a real issue, I got the Howell to operate by switching parts around.
But with the Kirst, I sent it off to 45 Dragoon and he did his magic to it.
Mike installed a coil spring & plunger for the hand, a wrapped coil spring for the trigger and bolt.
I had already installed the Wolf's reduced preasure main spring before sending it off.
Attached are pictures of my LEE Factory Crimp Die & Collet which I made out of O2 Drill Rod and heat traeted.
To make the Rolled Crimp look would be a trick, but not impossible.
Also pictures of my heel forming die.

AntiqueSledMan.

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[AntiqueSledMan]

Mako,

I missed your question about lube. I had built a Cylinder Loading Press, then I bult a Lubricator to put on it.
My Lubricator consists of an old pneumatic cylinder mounted to a block with an RCBS .451 sizing die inside.
I needed to replace the end port of the cylinder so I could install a screw to the piston to push the lube through
a 1/8” passageway, lined up with the grove of the die. With no ejector punch to seal the lube passage when the
bullet is not present I installed a gate valve in the block to close the passage, a shoulder bolt with a 1/8” hole
drilled through and a T handle. You push the loaded cartridge into the lubing die, turn the gate 1/4 turn, then turn
the gate another 1/4 turn then raise the cartridge out of the die.

A locking collar was installed on the ram to set the depth, so the grease groove of the bullet lines up with the die passage.
The Shell Holder was a modified LEE #9. The LEE Shell Holder has a taper in the primer passage which I fit a threaded stud,
then held it together with an 8-32 Flat Head Bolt. I turned the Shell Holder Base to .490” diameter to fit inside my Cylinder
Press for clearance purposes and to work as a stop.

I did load 50 rounds with Goex 2F, so I figured I needed the lube. I went with ¾ cup Crisco Shortening, ¼ lb of Gulf Wax,
and ¼ lb of Bees Wax. It did push through the sizing die and filled the groove on the bullet. I figured if this wasn't enough
lube, I would reduced the charge and add a lubricated felt wad under the bullet. But with the Black MZ I no longer need the lube.

I did have an issue with the bullets wanting to pull out of my case while removing the lubricated cartridge from the lubricator.
So I ended up running all of my bullets through a LEE .451 push thru sizing die before loading them into the cases.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Mako]

Sled Man,
I am so glad you responded.  I am assuming you do work on old "sleds" now seeing your machine work.

I am including 13 year old design possibilities for a collet modification.  I don't have large diameter slitting saws (and it appears yours are wider than the Lee originals) in the narrow slit they used on the collets so I was going to try and modify their collet. I know it's a pain, if they were expanding collets (features on the O.D.) it would be easier.  The guy I was collaborating with pointed out my .06 Radius wasn't any different than a chamfer the way I wanted them modified (he's right).  The main thing is I wanted the crimping surface reduced to .005 to .010" of bearing surface.

My .44 WCF dies crimp like you show in your picture and don't "roll" the crimp into the groove on my Mav Dutchmans  or won't on almost any other lead bullet crimp groove.  There are a few designs with wide crimp grooves or even John Kort's design where he has the ogive going to a reduced diameter on front of the "crimp groove" so you can use a Lee Factory crimp die seat the bullet a bit deeper and the crimper will make the crimp deeper than the bearing surfaces.  A lot of people miss that feature and a lot roll crimp with standard pistol dies.  He had at least one Winchester with the original chamber dimensions and neck turned cases and sized bullets to Ø.428.  I don't go to that much trouble with my original '73 the chamber will accept a modern shell if i have sized my bullets to Ø.428.  Probably snug, but I get NO blow back around the neck.

So your collet appears to be a lot shorter than the theoretical .205 shorter .44 COLT case (from the .44 WCF).  In practice I have found Starline Brass to vary and I think my last batch was 1.110 in length instead of 1.10".  We were going to push out the original collet, then shorten it .205" and shorten the die body at least .25".  The collets are relatively hard so we might have even had to use a die post grinder with a Ø .25 grinding wheel (not a traditional Tool Post O.D. grinder).  We were going to make two pieces to stabilize the collet while in the lathe chuck or a collet.  An aluminum plug to fit n the bore of the collet and two sleeve halves to fit in the stepped down section on the O.D. of the Lee Collet. It's been a while but I think it was the two segments had an OD of 3/4" to fit in a standard collet.  How much did you shorten your die body?

Any advise you can give me from your efforts would be appreciated.

I like your Lubrication set up, I like that you are using an air cylinder instead of a hand pump a lot.  I have two boxes of cylinders salvaged from other projects, some as large as Ø 4.0 inches.

Is that a cylinder loading stand you are using with your bullet lubing set up?  If it is I applaud you, I love it when someone re-uses something they already have time and effort into.  My loader is below, I have all kinds of adapter for different cylinders (some are kept on the stand) but it really is optimized for Colt's Pattern '51s and '60s.  The riser used to be taller but I shortened it to just handle the Colt's cylinders and the brass plungers have built in hard stops.

You fully explained the reason I want a different style crimp face on the collet.  You reported that you were having trouble with the bullets pulling out in the lubrication die.  Pushing them through a Ø.451 sizer sort of makes the heeled bullet a moot point.  If you only had  a .01" land and enough compression to squeeze the collet to get the crimp to reduce that area bay at lest .01 to .015 inches per side it they would not pull out.  That is my quest, to get a "Hard Crimped" Heeled bullet, not just the hint of a crimp.

~Mako

[Mako]

This is how they used to crimp Heeled bullets. 

Look at the two pictures below, notice the deep hard crimps.  They figured out a way to give what appears to be a roll crimp on those cartridges.  I know it wasn't a crimper like we have on our conventional reloading dies now because the bullet would be swaged down before the case got to the crimping area.  They may have even rolled the cartridges around their central axis and crimped them, I don't know... That .44 Rimfire second from the right has a crimp that resembles what I am advocating you can do with a modified Lee die,  you can see that short land and the vestige of a crimping tool. Now look at the crimp far left on the second picture, that is obviously a collet crimp, you can see the area between the segments where it didn't crimp.

The other photo was from someone I believe who was on this forum.  If that is your photo speak up, I for one appreciate it. Note how all of these bullets in both pictures have obvious crimps.  I don't get this good of a crimp even with my unmodified Lee .44-40 Factory Crimp Die (on my .44 WCF cases), the bearing area of the crimp is too long on the factory die and doesn't force the case down into the crimp groove.

I included the .44 Rimfires because they are heeled bullets too and had to be crimped in a manner different than our traditional crimping dies.

Thanks to everyone participating and even those just following.  This is what this entire website has needed for a while, Discussion! Sharing Ideas, sharing photos. Go look at all of the individual forums and see how long it has been between topics and posts.  little discussion, very little new.  Even if we have discussed these in the past we have new members and new readers, plus have we REALLY figured it all out?  That is what I asked in one of my original posts upon coming back to the forum after an absence of years.

~Mako

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings my dear netizens

Re crimping

Here is what i have found to date regarding loading and crimping tools

Earliest patent, involving a die crimp ( apparently not heel based ) from 1869
https://patents.google.com/patent/US97904A/en?q=(Cartridge+bullet+crimp)&num=100&oq=Cartridge+bullet+crimp&sort=old

Another later, ca 1873  using a revolving disk to establish the crimp

https://patents.google.com/patent/US143981A/en?q=(Cartridge+bullet+crimp)&num=100&oq=Cartridge+bullet+crimp&sort=old

And there are various hand tools that use a pliers-like device to establish the crimp….

I could not find much on factory type machines yet other than the two above.

Yhs
Prof mumbles

[AntiqueSledMan]

Mako,

I do work on, collect and restore Antique Snowmobiles, 1968 and older.
It's been my obstion ever since they were new.
My son & I actually take them on trail rides and race with them,
along with our many friend in the Antique Snowmobile Club of America.

And yes, that was the Cylinder Press which I had built during after hours at work.
Almost all of the material came from the scrap barrel at work,
I think the ram was the only purchased part, a 1/2" ground rod.

The problem I see with modifying an allready built collet is holding it while machining,
they want to spread on you because of the slits but this can be overcome.
The issue of building a new one like I did, they need to be heat treated so they spring back after crimping.
I used a piece of 17mm O2 Drill Rod for the collet. I did all the machining before cutting the slits.
Then before heat treating it, I put it on a mandrel and wrapped it with mechanics wire tied to hold it against the mandrel.
It was a real pain, but I didn't want it to warp. I tried one without heat treating and after a few rounds it didn't spring back.

Looking at the 3 cartridges in the picture, one can see the ".44 Colt & Remington" was crimped in a collet.
Maybe the rest of the cartridges were actually rolled to creat the rolled crimp.
It would be possible to do so with a tubing cutter, but I think this would get old very quickly.

As far as re-using stuff already made for something else, it just seamed the way to go.
Why go through the troubles of building the same piece for a different project when it's right there?
I also used the cylinder press as an extraction tool for a little swaging die I built.
Somebody had posted a picture of the Taurus Hollow Base (unavailable now), so I attempted to copy them.
I made a swaging die to swage a .375 round ball into the 36 caliber hollow based conical.
I needed a way to get the final product out of the die, as I didn't like pounding on it with a hammer.
In the picture below the Taurus Hollow Base on the left, with my copy on the right.
I will say the one downside of retirement is the loss of the equipment we were allowed to use.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Coffinmaker]

My personal favorite bullet for my 45s is called "The Barnstormer."  Developed by Adirondack Jack some Lustrum ago.  The bullet was intended to put those CAS shooters who preferred the .45, on the same competitive level as those who preferred to play with the .38.

I apologize, as I am On The Road and can't submit an appropriate photograph and have never been able to post on this forum anyway, but the bullet resembles a really large Wad Cutter with a radically DEEP hollow base.  Drops from a mold at about 130Gr.  I believe AJ had two or maybe three sets of blocks made.  There was a fellow on the SASS Wire who picked up casting the bullet commercially when "others" gave up marketing it.  I don't know what happened to the other two sets of blocks.  The bullet is notoriously difficult to cast.  I will try and get a photo when I get home Saturday and have one of our Mods post it for me.

[Cliff Fendley]

31-115D is the 32-20 bullet that I designed and the late John Kort added to accurate catalog. I really need to get Tom to list it as the improved 32-20 black powder bullet.

The original one that John designed has sold a bunch because it was listed for such but this redesign we did works a bit better.

I moved the lube groove forward increasing the base driving band thickness giving the bullet better balance and the overall length and crimp groove is optimal for best feeding from the Uberti toggle length rifles. These slight changes worked perfect because in my experience the 31-115D bullet outshoots the 31-110C version that John originally had Tom make us.

[Mako]

Mako,
...The problem I see with modifying an allready built collet is holding it while machining,
they want to spread on you because of the slits but this can be overcome.
AntiqueSledMan.

Sledman,
Yep, I already had a plan to stabilize the collet while machining, my buddy and i who collaborate on machining projects had already come up with a plan to hold the collet by forcing a core of aluminum in to the center of the collet and then machining a hollow aluminum cylinder (to fit around the outside of the collet body) and splitting it in half to go around Lee collet.  Of course the secret is that you can't spring the collet open more than about a half a thousandth and you can't run your core plug up into to the area where the machining will take place.  To further complicate matters the bore of the Lee collet is not perfectly cylindrical on the one we took apart.  My friend insisted we would have to true the bore up a bit first. probably run a reamer in it and then lap it.  The problem there is I would have to buy another reamer and lap (not too expensive but it keeps adding up) , nether one of us had one close enough in size (I can't remember what it even was now). I had suggested the I.D. tool post grinder instead of single pointing it on the lathe since you can limit the deflection of the pieces we would be grinding because there is so little pressure. Also the hardness of the collet wouldn't be a factor, it probably would be while reaming and I'm not even sure we could do that and clamp the collet firmly even with the split halves.  It just kept getting more complicated.  I can see why you chose to make a collet.

I have another problem though, I "started" this project at least 15 years ago.  My buddy has moved and is extremely old now and I have moved 3 times since then and am just now getting my shop in order.  I still don't where half of the things are, I had a shipping container full of just my shop and office items not counting furniture.  I'm not even sure where that collet is, I might just buy another.

I really appreciate your picture and creativity.  I'm sure if I showed the pictures to John (my buddy) he might think it was my set up with the RCBS and everything.

I have one last question...what were you doing with that .22LR cartridge in the picture with the tube cutter?

I also believe the Per'fesser had the right of it above about the rotary crimpers.  Factory products often use things like that because they are faster and many times more uniform than what we do on our own loading benches.  I toured a Federal plant once and they were putting cannelures on .38 Spl cases intended for wadcutters, they were FAST and didn't cause any imperfections on the surface.  However that one photo definitely has the evidence of a slip collet being used to crimp it.

~Mako

[Mako]

31-115D is the 32-20 bullet that I designed and the late John Kort added to accurate catalog. I really need to get Tom to list it as the improved 32-20 black powder bullet.

Cliff,
Yes you need to get it listed that way, so people will find it in all of the clutter.

As for John, I looked the other day and I think there is only one attributed to him.  You might want to still give him attribution even though it is a improved version.  If the folks who did the improvement want to be listed you could say "Improved by XXXX".  There are also variations on his .44 bullet on there that need to give attribution.  A lot of people would gravitate towards those designs if they knew those were his.  John contributed a lot and never asked for very little, he deserves the recognition..

I can't believe how many total designs are in the catalog now, it's insane, how would anyone choose?

Thank you for sharing this.  One of the things I want to do is create a list for us we can put in the Dark Arts section that will list the successful bullets suitable for BP.  John never had the success he wanted with the Mav Dutchman which I believe actually started his design work looking for an accurate long range .44 WCF bullet.  I'm not sure we can get a Mav Dutchman analog unless we get Lee or someone else to do it again.

And I agree with you on the bearing surface at the base.  If you have access to older .38 Grease wagon bullets you will see they had a shorter bearing which "grew" longer at some point of time.  Further more the Mold we could buy was not exactly the same as the original design, however I like the smaller diameter nose on the bullets I was getting 10 years ago and 2 years ago.  They seem to feed well, maybe it's not an issue I have never run tests with the different variations side by side.

Thank you again for adding this.

~Mako

[Cliff Fendley]

Cliff,
Yes you need to get it listed that way, so people will find it in all of the clutter.

As for John, I looked the other day and I think there is only one attributed to him.  You might want to still give him attribution even though it is a improved version.  If the folks who did the improvement want to be listed you could say "Improved by XXXX".  There are also variations on his .44 bullet on there that need to give attribution.  A lot of people would gravitate towards those designs if they knew those were his.  John contributed a lot and never asked for very little, he deserves the recognition..

I can't believe how many total designs are in the catalog now, it's insane, how would anyone choose?

Thank you for sharing this.  One of the things I want to do is create a list for us we can put in the Dark Arts section that will list the successful bullets suitable for BP.  John never had the success he wanted with the Mav Dutchman which I believe actually started his design work looking for an accurate long range .44 WCF bullet.  I'm not sure we can get a Mav Dutchman analog unless we get Lee or someone else to do it again.

And I agree with you on the bearing surface at the base.  If you have access to older .38 Grease wagon bullets you will see they had a shorter bearing which "grew" longer at some point of time.  Further more the Mold we could buy was not exactly the same as the original design, however I like the smaller diameter nose on the bullets I was getting 10 years ago and 2 years ago.  They seem to feed well, maybe it's not an issue I have never run tests with the different variations side by side.

Thank you again for adding this.

~Mako

Mako, you could say this bullet is the 32-20 version for Johns 43-215C in relation to the 44-40. I'll probably contact Tom and see if he will add a description to it so people realize what it is. People are buying the original version John first put in the catalog without realizing we did an updated version.

[Mako]

Mako, you could say this bullet is the 32-20 version for Johns 43-215C in relation to the 44-40. I'll probably contact Tom and see if he will add a description to it so people realize what it is. People are buying the original version John first put in the catalog without realizing we did an updated version.

Cliff,
That is good, like I wrote before, I hope to get something together we can compile and post adding it to the Dark Arts archive along with commentary.  A data base where we can send people and help them find the best bullets for what they are trying to do.  I know John wasn't averse to change, he realized he didn't have all of the answers and was always learning. So he would welcome improvements to anything he started.

There are so many molds in Tom's catalog now it is confusing and I don't understand why there are even some showing "0" sold.  Most people would look at the catalog and go for the 31-110C since there have been 29 sold not realizing the improvement with the 31-115D.  Your 31-115D is only a few thousandths from the max depth he would cut so there would be no need to make an analog of the .32 Big Lube mold, and you have a lube surface of .16 which is a good ratio to the bullet diameter.  I would assume it doesn't lead badly with the right lube.

Wasn't the Big Lube .32 caliber mold a lightweight bullets, somewhere around 80 grains?  I never paid attention to it, does anyone have the dimensions on it?  I think the only people who would be interested in it would be someone shooting the .32 Mag, the ogive on yours and Johns are better for feeding in a rifle like the Win '92, Marlin or Henry.  A '73 doesn't care what you have for feeding, but a loading ramp works better with the longer bullets.  The Snake Bite works better in my Daughter's Marlin and the longer ogive actually helps with guns intended for .357 mag.

I guess there are so many molds in his catalog because there a lot of people just want their "own" design which leads to the proliferation of catalog numbers.  Plus, Tom makes it easy to come up with a new design since they are actually all "one offs" anyway because the cavity profiles are CNC machined and he doesn't make "cherries" to cut the molds.  I for one will probably not have .44 design unless Tom will actually make a deeper groove that .03" for us.  There isn't any need, any variation would be to close to a couple that are already in the catalog to justify a different design.  The .38 is a different matter, there was nothing like it with a deep groove which we can get at .03", they all give up some of that depth in their designs.  I have recovered Snake Bite bullets and unlike the Mav Dutchman they seem to use most of the lube and I find them to be accurate out to longer ranges.

~Mako

[AntiqueSledMan]

Mako,

The picture of the tubing cutter isn't mine,
I just added it to show another method of putting s rolled crimp onto a case.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Cliff Fendley]

Cliff,
That is good, like I wrote before, I hope to get something together we can compile and post adding it to the Dark Arts archive along with commentary.  A data base where we can send people and help them find the best bullets for what they are trying to do.  I know John wasn't averse to change, he realized he didn't have all of the answers and was always learning. So he would welcome improvements to anything he started.

There are so many molds in Tom's catalog now it is confusing and I don't understand why there are even some showing "0" sold.  Most people would look at the catalog and go for the 31-110C since there have been 29 sold not realizing the improvement with the 31-115D.  Your 31-115D is only a few thousandths from the max depth he would cut so there would be no need to make an analog of the .32 Big Lube mold, and you have a lube surface of .16 which is a good ratio to the bullet diameter.  I would assume it doesn't lead badly with the right lube.

Wasn't the Big Lube .32 caliber mold a lightweight bullets, somewhere around 80 grains?  I never paid attention to it, does anyone have the dimensions on it?  I think the only people who would be interested in it would be someone shooting the .32 Mag, the ogive on yours and Johns are better for feeding in a rifle like the Win '92, Marlin or Henry.  A '73 doesn't care what you have for feeding, but a loading ramp works better with the longer bullets.  The Snake Bite works better in my Daughter's Marlin and the longer ogive actually helps with guns intended for .357 mag.

I guess there are so many molds in his catalog because there a lot of people just want their "own" design which leads to the proliferation of catalog numbers.  Plus, Tom makes it easy to come up with a new design since they are actually all "one offs" anyway because the cavity profiles are CNC machined and he doesn't make "cherries" to cut the molds.  I for one will probably not have .44 design unless Tom will actually make a deeper groove that .03" for us.  There isn't any need, any variation would be to close to a couple that are already in the catalog to justify a different design.  The .38 is a different matter, there was nothing like it with a deep groove which we can get at .03", they all give up some of that depth in their designs.  I have recovered Snake Bite bullets and unlike the Mav Dutchman they seem to use most of the lube and I find them to be accurate out to longer ranges.

~Mako

The 31-115D carries plenty of lube. Using Olde E I can shoot a six stage match without cleaning my rifle. That's using SPG or my 50/50 deer tallow and beeswax. When designing it John was the one that laid out the lube groove dimensions.