Author Topic: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian  (Read 13188 times)

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« on: August 02, 2013, 11:55:34 AM »
Doing some reading on the S&W revolvers in Taylerson's book "The Revolver 1865-1888" I noticed the picture of the Tranter "double-trigger" percussion revolvers, precursors of the true double action or "self-cocking" revolvers as the Brits called them.

These guns had a second lower trigger projecting from the bottom of the trigger guard. I believe that this was an aid to cocking.
There is a possibility that the Russian Arch Duke Alexei was influenced by this design feature and asked that the spur be incorporated into the #3 Russian model.

The same book has patent drawings (Br. patent #1561/1878) showing the Wheeler & White belt mounted  "revolver charger" that held multiple reloads for top break S&W revolvers. It looks very practical and useful, compared to fishing about in a pouch for loose cartridges.
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Offline Herbert

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 04:13:21 PM »
The spure trigger guard was around with flintlock and caplock target and duelling pistols and remained popular in uroupe well into the revolver erea,the Rushians would have been very familuar with this grip method .The double trigger Tranter is a very diffrent thing it is a cocking leaver that is heald back whyle the trigger incide the trigger guard is squized to fire the revolver or released to uncock the revolver

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #3 on: Today at 01:31:02 AM »

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 04:31:07 PM »
Either way, it is logical to assume that the Grand Duke was influenced by either or both, the Tranter feature and what was common on Duelling pistols.

I haven't even received the gun as yet (running thru' the legalities ....) so I have no idea how my small paw is going to adapt to the grip shape.
In the event that it turns out to be unmanageable, it will quickly be styled like the #3 American model with just a slight hump on the backstrap; with or without the spur.

With two paws, the spur will be an asset as opposed to a hindrance. S&W .44 Russian fans can now gather for the lynching party .....
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 07:26:34 PM »
Howdy

There was no hammer spur on the Tranter. To fire the gun single action, the lower trigger projecting below the trigger guard rotated the cylinder and cocked the hammer. Once they were all the way back, light pressure to the trigger inside the trigger guard fired the gun. To fire the gun quickly, double action, both triggers were yanked at once.



Probably the best example of the Tranter was when Raquel Welch wielded one in Hannie Caulder.











Frankly, the idea of a spur on the trigger guard was around long before the Tranter, and long before the Russian Model Smiths.

Very common on dueling pistols.












For some reason that I have not yet been able to figure out, the hammer spurs on most of the S&W Number Three revolvers pointed up, and away from the shooter.


American Model






Russian Model





Schofield





New Model Number Three





The only S&W Number Three that had a hammer spur that did not point up and away from the shooter was the Double Action 44.




I have fairly large hands, and with those upward sweeping hammer spurs I always have to regrip when I shoot my Russian or my New Model Number Three. Not too big a problem with the New Model Number Three, but the Russian has that huge hump (S&W calls it a knuckle) on the grip, and I can tell you it makes shooting the Russian very awkward. I always have to regrip and cover the knuckle with my palm in order to reach the hammer spur with my thumb, then I have to regrip again and get my hand below the knuckle. If I don't regrip and the knuckle recoils into my palm, it hurts! Why did the Russians insist on the large knuckle? Because they felt it would prevent the gun from rolling in the hand with recoil. Which it does very well. But the darn hump is just too big.

Smith and Wesson finally got it right with the New Model Number Three in 1878. The grip had a very reduced knuckle on it, and is very pleasant to shoot with a mild cartridge like the 44 Russian.

Interestingly enough, the grip shape of the DA44 is just about identical to a modern K frame S&W. Very easy to shoot. I can easily reach the hammer spur, and the small knuckle keeps the grip from rolling much in my hand. Just like a modern S&W.

As far as the trigger spur on the Russian model is concerned, I have heard all the explanations for why it is there. The simple reason is the Russians insisted on it, along with the big hump on the grip. The Russians eventually bought a zillion of these things, much more that the total number of Schofields produced, and S&W was only too happy to make them the way the Russians wanted them. I can also tell you that the simplest way to fire a Russian is to completely ignore the trigger guard spur and grip the gun just like you would any other revolver. With your hand on the grip. Trying to rest a finger on the spur is awkward.




They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Here is a cheap Turkish imitation of the S&W Russian Model.



And here is a cheap Belgian copy.



Both have the big knuckle, one has the hammer spur.



That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 08:52:06 PM »
Driftwood - thanks for the S&W tutorial! And Racquel never looked better!

Odd how the DA S&W got the hammer spur that would have done good service on the SA models. I've read that some of the best licenced copies were German made. I wonder if they were metric back then?

I've got Chicoine's books as well as several other references on the S&W series of top breaks. I'm really looking forward to shooting this gun.

I just located an 'as new' set of RCBS dies for the .44 Russian/.44 Spl. and this weekend a pal will be trimming 100 .44 Spl. cases to .970 for me. I have a plentiful supply of Lyman 200 gr RNFP's on hand, lubed with SPG.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 11:34:38 AM »
Been wonderin' .....

if one could be found, could a hammer from a S&W DA .44 be fitted to a 3rd Model Russian ..... ? Probably not since the innards are different.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 04:37:48 PM »
Quote
if one could be found, could a hammer from a S&W DA .44 be fitted to a 3rd Model Russian ..... ? Probably not since the innards are different.

Howdy Again

You answered your own question. The lockwork of the DA and the Russian are radically different.

The top photo is the lockwork of one of my 44DAs. The claw looking thingy is what pushes the hammer back double action. I'm not completely sure right now, but I believe the hand is attached to the trigger, not the hammer. And notice how the hammer drops over a narrow stud in the frame.







Not a 3rd Model Russian, this is a 2nd Model Russian. But I'll bet the lockworks of the two models are not too different. Very different configuration from the DA.



I suppose with enough money it would be possible to alter the DA hammer, but it would be much simpler to saw off the hammer spur and weld it back on at a different angle.

That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 04:41:11 PM »
By the way, I saw a gun exactly like this today at an auction.



I was thinking of bidding on it, but it was much too much money. It was a real piece of junk. And on the top rib, a lot of the markings had been worn off over time, but I could clearly see 'Wesson'. Clearly one of the forgeries that were ripping off S&W in the 19th Century.
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Trigger Guard Spur on S&W #3 Russian
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 09:55:15 AM »
When you consider the number of add-ons, after market gadgets and kits available for Cowboy guns today, there is room for an after market low spur hammer for &W #3's .... ;>)

At least a spring kit to lessen trigger pulls, hammer falls, etc.

Found a reference to the trigger spur on the Russian model in "Pistols of the World" ....

"The main changes to the outline of the .44 SA New Model (1878-1912) were in the region of the butt, which had been copied from English practice, and had never been popular with American shooters. The pawl was abandoned and the grip widened. The curve of the butt was lessened a little and the finger-piece on the trigger guard was abandoned.
Finally, the extractor gear of the .38 was fitted and the long lug under the barrel shortened, thus improving the balance."
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

 

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