Hunting Big game with a Trapdoor

[Doug.38PR]

Just curious, as I am about to order a Uberti/Pedersoli Trapdoor Carbine probably this weekend, just what this gun is capable of.

I understand it's action doesn't allow for super hot handloads, BUT, I would think that something shoots a standard load that would take out Buffalo herds or shoot horses out from under charging Indians or Cavalry would be more than adequate for just about anything in North America and even parts of Africa.  Standard loadings for .45-70 are old school, but they still will do what they were designed to against flesh and blood.  Am I right?

[St. George]

In short - yes.

But the shooter still has to do his work and place the shot properly.

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

As the mountain men used to say, "Ye gotta tetch the life!"  The .45-70 at standard velocities (1275-1320 ft/sec) with a 405 gr bullet will account for anything on the North American continent...IF you place the bullets right, respect the rainbow trajectory (300 yd plus shots are fine IF you can judge distance and know the trajectory of the bullet backwards and forewards...125 yds max is more like it).

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[Doug.38PR]

what about say, big game hunting in Africa?

[Trailrider]

what about say, big game hunting in Africa?

It has been done, though I think one would be better off with a double, for a followup shot.  Plus, you probably will want something besides lead bullets.  Solids come to mind, depending on what you are hunting.  W.D. "Karamojo" Bell killed elephants with a 7 x 57 Mauser, but he knew exactly where to place the bullet, and was long on nerve!  A lot of game has been taken with a slightly longer cased version of the .45-70, using a belted case, and a bolt action rifle.  It's called the .458 WinMag. (Although some professional hunters don't think the .458 WM has enough power for Cape buffalo.  But a Trapdoor wouldn't take the kind of pressures required.  If you can find a PH who will take you on as a client with your Trapdoor, be sure you follow his advice and don't be adverse to letting him "cooperate", if necessary.

A friend of mine used to be a PH, but conditions in the countries in which he was licensed, led him to give it up.  Be sure to watch out for the guerrillas.  Not the kind with the silver hair on their backs...the kind packing AK-47's! 

[Doug.38PR]

According to my speer reloading manuel, a trapdoor can handle a 500 gr lead round nosed bullet.  Something that heavy would have pretty good penetration I would think, even if it didn't have the kind of pressure that a strong action could take.   My Hornandy manuel, allows for a 325 gr semi jacketed blunt nosed bullet (you mentioned non lead bullets).

Just thinking of ways of improvising with what I have.

I have a Remington 700 .30-06, but it's .30 caliber wouldn't create the large wound cavity that a .45 caliber hole would.

[Trailrider]

According to my speer reloading manuel, a trapdoor can handle a 500 gr lead round nosed bullet.  Something that heavy would have pretty good penetration I would think, even if it didn't have the kind of pressure that a strong action could take.   My Hornandy manuel, allows for a 325 gr semi jacketed blunt nosed bullet (you mentioned non lead bullets).

Just thinking of ways of improvising with what I have.

I have a Remington 700 .30-06, but it's .30 caliber wouldn't create the large wound cavity that a .45 caliber hole would.

Well, again, it depends on what you are hunting.

[St. George]

And what bullet you're using - .30-06 makes a plenty large hole, all in all.

What, pray tell, are you planning on hunting?

Scouts Out!

[Doug.38PR]

I'm not planning on hunting anything.  About the only thing I could hunt anytime soon is Deer in Louisiana.  LOL.  Either one of those two rounds will handle it.

I was just thinking hypothetically what could handle cats or even elephants in Africa (that's why I was thinking large bore like a .45-70 would be preferable to .30-06).   English big game hunters in the 19th and early 20th century didn't have the huge .50 caliber guns that blow things up like we do today.   

Although I did read once that Teddy Roosevelt used a .30-06 when he went big game hunting in Africa.  I've EVEN heard tell the .357 Magnum was popular as a handgun hunting arm among big game hunters in Africa.  Heard 3 shots from .357 took out an 800 pound walrus in Alaska.

[River City John]

Wow! An 800 lb. walrus! Must have gotten him on the run.


RCJ

[Driftwood Johnson]

English big game hunters in the 19th and early 20th century didn't have the huge .50 caliber guns that blow things up like we do today.

They certainly did. They had the Nitro Express cartridges, usually chambered in a double rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitro_Express

[pony express]

And before they had the Nitro Express ones, they had huge BP doubles, *, 6, even 4 guage!A 45/70 looks like a .22 shell next to one of those!

[St. George]

And a .22 killed a circus elephant at the turn of the 19th century - but he bled to death and was in pain as he died.

The hunters in Darkest Africa weren't built on the grand scale that they are, today, either.

As to stopping an elephant - I wouldn't be putting 'my' faith in a .45-70 - I'd want something far more efficient.

TR liked the .405 - in a Winchester Model 1895 - but used larger rounds, too.

You want two things - a humane kill, and the ability for a back-up shot, if needed - the Trapdoor doesn't allow that - but for well-placed, single-shot fire within reasonable ranges, it'll do an efficient job.

Blowing things up isn't hunting.

Scouts Out!

[smoke]

 Bell used his 7x57 as a culling rifle not a stopping rifle.  Big difference in tactics.  Now adays in Africa a .375H&H is the minimum for dangerous game about everywhere.  Most guids prefer something that starts with a 4.

TR was no dummy, besides the .30-06 and the .405 he also had a H&H double, diamond grade I believe in a .470 nitro experss.

[Trailrider]

The .404 Jeffries is popular, as is the .40 cal. Remington magnum (can't recall the exact designation).  My PH friend used a .500 Nitro Express 3-1/2" with 500 grain solid bullets, in a double.  When he first went over as a client, he used this, and subsequently when he became a licensed PH in several countries. Mostly he hunted Cape buffalo, lion, and occasionally hippos.  He had a photo of a buff that he put five (5) rounds from his .50 NE in a group you could cover with your hand, in the "boiler room".  Took that many before the buff went down.  Doesn't happen all the time, but sometimes you run into a critter that is tenacious about living! He never went after heffalumps, however. 

[Mossyrock]

If you want to take a 45-70 to Africa, I would suggest either a Ruger #1 or a Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70.  Back in my misspent youth, before I discovered the Church of the Holy Black, I was prone to hot-loading the 45-70 and other wickedness.  In a 22" Siamese Mauser, I was routinely launching a Speer 400gr softpoint over 2,200 fps.  The Ruger would go about 2,300fps with the same load.  I would not have hesitated to tackle a cape buffalo or elephant with that load, given a good solid bullet such as a Barnes.  Those loads would flat SCATTER a Trapdoor...not a good idea.

[Pitspitr]

He never went after heffalumps, however. 

How about woosels?

I love my .45/70s but I don't think I'd want to hunt dangerous game with one.

[Doug.38PR]

Wow! An 800 lb. walrus! Must have gotten him on the run.


RCJ

  fast forward to 2:10 when it discusses the .357 Magnum.   (the video at the beginning also has a lot of interesting info about big game hunting with magnum guns and theodore roosevelt.   7:20 is when they discuss the walrus...I was wrong about the weight.  it was probably at least 2000 pounds 

[River City John]

  fast forward to 2:10 when it discusses the .357 Magnum.   (the video at the beginning also has a lot of interesting info about big game hunting with magnum guns and theodore roosevelt.   7:20 is when they discuss the walrus...I was wrong about the weight.  it was probably at least 2000 pounds  

Must've been at a slow trot, then.

RCJ