Deacon,
The reason I ask about the statement "Their barrels have rifling set up for FMJ bullets. Unless you use a very hard cast bullet, it will not play well with non-jacketed bullets" is because there is a lot of “common knowledge” floating around the internet and it even pervades the S&W collectors community.  Once it is said it gets repeated without evidence or even measurement.

The M1917 started out as an “Americanized” version of the S&W the British bought chambered in the .455 Mark II Webley cartridge, it was basically a S&W Hand Ejector (First Model).  Now go look up the dimensions for a .455 Webley, they are larger than the .45 ACP.  Some of the early M1917 revolvers in .45 ACP even used that original .455 Webley barrel, you have to know the vintage of a M1917 to even guess what the rifling dimensions might be.

BUT, then they started producing barrels specifically for the .45 ACP and it will surprise you to know what the land and groove dimensions were.  The ones I have measured have the Lands at Ø.443 or Ø.444 and the Grove diameters were Ø.454 or Ø.455.  They can argue all they want, I have actual measurable barrels and the tools to measure them.

SOOOOO… What does shallow groove mean? Shallow as compared to what?  The Nominal dimension for the Lands on a National Match 1911 .45 ACP barrel are Ø.4410 +.0015/-.0000 for the lands and Ø.4505 +.0015/-.0000.  That means the nominal groove depth is .00475”.  Sounds pretty shallow when you look at it that way.  You can take a DEAD  SOFT H&G 68 200gr SWC and almost stack the holes (a bit of an exaggeration) at 25 yards using a Ransom Rest.  The Jacketed 230 Match and 185 Jacketed Match ammo really don’t do any better.

Look at this illustration:  This is what Kimber was using 29 years ago when Jerico first started making the 1911s.



Does anyone say the 1911 barrel with a .00475” groove cannot shoot anything except Jacketed or HARD lead bullets?
I have rebarreled M1917s and have a M1917 barrel around somewhere in my mountain of boxes from storage.  I can tell you the barrel rifling is pretty much the same as a S&W 1950, a S&W 1955 and the current Model 25s which are just the new numbering for the 1955 (the 1950 became the Model 26).  The major differences are the barrel profile and rib changed from the M1950 and remains the same today on the Mod 25.  The other difference is that the newer M25 and M625 no longer have the locking pin at the top of the threads through the threads on the barrel.

Look at these pictures:
 

Both barrels are M1950, I no longer have any loose 1955 barrels.  Both of those barrels have a Land diameter that will pass a Ø.443+ gauge pin and the groove diameter is Ø.453-  That is a groove depth of .0050” (sounds awfully close to .00475”, but then again, what is 250 millionths among friends?)  Those cylinders will pass a Ø.454+ gauge pin.

A tuned M1950 or M1955 will also shoot incredibly tight groups with almost anything you stuff in them.  They even shoot well (but not as good as .45ACP) when .45 Colt cylinders are added to them.  That is with the same bullets too.  The advantage of the .45 Colt is that you can shoot those 250gr bullets and even heavier if you have a mind to.  I even have box of .45ACP loaded with 250gr bullets around here somewhere.  They don't feed reliably in a 1911 but shoot "okay" in a revolver, they were loaded decades ago and I ran across them during a move.

Deacon, this is no reflection on you, you're just repeating what the "experts" say it is...  It's too bad they are not diligent students or good at collecting data.  I’m sorry, but I get a bit tired of reading things I know there is no basis for.  I know I don’t know everything (not even a trillionth of a fraction of everything) but there are some things I do know.  I also know there is a LOT of bad advice, conventional wisdom and “that’s the way it was done back then” for Black Powder.  Most of it is WRONG.

I think I will start a topic of "Things we all know, but are wrong about Real Powder".  But not now, I would get pissy about it.

I'm sorry,  but I've been cooped up in a convention center, got home late yesterday and just finished "doctoring" 2 one week old chicks who had "Pasty Butt", replaced 3 Guinea Keets that didn't make it from last week and it seems to have made me grumpy.

I almost swallowed my tongue at the Farm Store early this morning when I was getting replacements (they guarantee them  within reason), and the guy at the register asked if I wanted to "exchange" the Keets for new ones.  The woman next to him just rolled her eyes.  I told him, "I don't think you would have wanted me to bring those in and slap them on your counter..."  Well I do get some simple pleasure from people's obtuse reasoning...

~Mako

OKAY cowboys and Coffinmakers (one wurd),

Look at the post above (with the pictures) now, I'm trying a different image hosting site and thy also allow a a larger image.

Tell if it works for everyone.

~Mako

Hmm, so I checked again this morning, and the pictures did not show up here nor on my Android phone.  Then one minute later, they show up on both.  Weird.  But now I see them!

Thanks for the explanation, Mako, and I knew some of that stuff but not that name.  However, the pictures did not show up for me.  And when I tell one to open in a new tab, I get a message from https://live.staticflickr.com... that says "These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Okay, I changed my votes, since I use both plastic and brass.  But on wads, I checked both plastic and nitro, etc cards because that's what I use in all brass.  Plastic hulls get plastic wad only.

Now for the question, I've never heard of reifenhauser hulls.  What common hulls would be an example?

Abilene,
Your primary preference for a plastic Hull is not a Reifenhauser style shell, you use a one piece compression formed or unibody Hull..  Those include the Rem STS and Nitro Hulls, the Peters Blue Magics (i still have a large bag of those from over 30 years ago), Win AA hulls, not the newer AA-HS and the Federal HOA shells.  There may be a few others and the Federal Gold Medal used to be but it has changed.  People are now hoarding the One Piece Win AAs like I do the Peters Blue Magics.

In the second photo below the old Federal Gold Medal Compression hull is flanked on either side by two different kinds of Reifenhauser two piece hulls.

 


A Reifenhauser style is named after the company that developed the extrusion process maybe 70 years ago to make extruded tubes strong enough and heat resistant enough to make shell bodies out of.  Almost every shell I didn't list above is a Reifenhauser style and that arguably includes the newer Win AA-HS hulls (but Winchester wants to act like they are a "one piece" equivalent).  If you look down into the shell if there is a separate base wad whether compressed paper or plastic then it is a Reifenhauser style.  Those shells are described as "two piece" which is confusing because they are actually three piece if you count the metal base.  Technically the unibody shells are "two piece" because they have a metal base.



Most but not all Unibody hulls have a tapered interior, they get thicker towards the base, so they require a wad that gets a bit smaller at the base.  You can use the red WAA12 wads in your Rem Nitros as well as the Win AAs.  Actually  Winchester made the Win AA-HS mimic the tapered shape so you can use that wad in the AA-HS even though it is a two piece plastic hull.

These are the new AA-HS hulls:  Note the "taper" type of bases.

Paper Hulls are actually very strong and they resist the heat, but they wear out faster than a unibody shell.  The Win AA, the Rem STS/Nitro and the Blue Magic hulls all have a tapered compression formed base and will last until you literally melt them.  As you know Real Powder burns a lot hotter than the smokiless powders.

Reifenhauser hulls with flat base wads normally have more room for powder and they will accept a larger variety of wads and often work better with fiber wads.  Your Nitro Card will fit deeper if you are using a load like 40-60gr of BP.  If you use a full 3 Dram equivalent (80gr BP) then you will probably be above the tapered area in a Compression Formed Hull enough that the Nitro Card will fit well.

Does that help?

~Mako