Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Roscoe Coles on August 30, 2009, 12:03:36 PM
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I have always hated gun carts, in fact I think the point when they came along is pretty much were SASS started down hill (though not the reason) but thats beyond this post. I was reading the NCOWS rules and they say "Only historically appropriate small conveyances for competitors' firearms and shooting supplies will be allowed (e.g., no converted golf carts, modern shooting carts, etc.)," Yet in photos of NCOWS shoots I have seen, people seem to be using gun carts. Frankly I have never seen a "period" gun cart and I don't know of any "historically appropriate small conveyances for ...firearms."
So, whats the deal, what is in fact NCOWS approved and what is not?
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I've wondered about this, too. I figure a guncart is a necessary evil--what else ya gonna do, lay 'em on the ground? But what would period correct be? Our guncart is essentially a wood box and cart with plow handles, so it coulda been made in the 19th century. Until you get to the tries: 20th century balloon style.
So I hope someone'll speak up....
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I have been shooting CAS for 22 years and in the early days every stage had a rifle rack. These went away when the gun cart came about, which is a real shame. Thats what I would argue for, as rifle racks on ranges are period correct. I carry all my stuff (ammo etc) from stage to stage in a set of saddle wallets slung over my shoulder.
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For those that choose to use a cart to carry firearms and supplies, NCOWS wants the cart to be made of period materials. Ex: Construction should be wood, iron, & leather. Wheels should be wooden spoke or iron Spoke. (No wire spoke bicycle tires or plastic baby stroller tires).
You are correct in saying that "gun carts" were not a 18th century device. However, for those that shoot 4 gun classes, or those mentoring junior shooters, they are very handy to have. Some C&B shooters also enjoy the convenience of a cart.
Examples of non-legal carts:
(http://www.starscart.com/images/763web.jpg)
(All materials are non period correct)
(http://www.cal-graf.com/BrassCtchrSC/SCsGroup.jpg)
(Wheels are not period material)
(http://guncarts.carolinacowboys.us/images/PC100031a.jpg)
(Wheels are not period material)
Legal Carts:
(http://guncarts.carolinacowboys.us/images/prairie.jpg)
(http://guncarts.carolinacowboys.us/images/newcart.jpg)
(http://guncarts.carolinacowboys.us/images/grpshot.jpg)
(Note the two in the center sporting wagon wheels. The bicycle wheels on the other carts would make them non-period)
Many shooters at our club who have used gun carts in the past are now finding the use of saddle bags or saddle pockets to be as convenient, especially when shooting working cowboy. We also now have period correct rifle racks on each stage.
Pancho
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Yeah, I'm sure that a gun cart is very handy to have. Heck I can think of lots of FARB things that would be handy to have (for those of you unfamiliar with the term FARB it means something which is totally historically inaccurate, usually justified by the immortal phrase "if they would have had it they would have used it"). But handy or not they are not period in any way, even when made of supposedly historic materials. By the way, wire wheels with hard and pneumatic rubber tires did exist pre 1899 on bicycles and automobiles and I would be quite surprised to find that smaller examples didn't exist as well, I'll have to look into it. But frankly it don't matter, no matter what they are built of they have no basis in history.
But hey, gun carts are a pet peeve of mine, I just hate the things. In any context they just scream "MODERN" at me and destroy the illusion. Its bad enough on the range but in a camp they are like having a bright yellow Colman cooler or a nylon lawn chair. They just aint period and there is no getting around it. I would much rather have well laid out gun racks on the range.
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There have been seen at past NCOWS events gun carts:
1.)made out of one of those Invalid wheel chairs of the period that is wood and wicker
2.)a box and barrel on an old railroad hand truck (the front of the barrel opened up to reveal the inner rack for the long arms)
3.)a dog-cart sized wagon that was originally intended to haul greenware and ceramics within a large factory
4.)wooden cart built out of harness trees, a strongbox and solid wood disc wheels
5.)built out of an old wood and iron wheeled wheel barrow modified to hold long arms upright in a rack
6.)a converted small-scale four wheel wagon of the type that you used to see sitting out on some lawns as an ornament to hold pots of
plants, usually brightly painted in Fiesta colors
7.)someone who had brought a very calm burro with packs on a pack saddle to hold supplies. The long arms were stored in scabbards, muzzle down, on either side.
8.)a replica of a Metis wooden pull cart (same function as a rickshaw, but with a cargo bed and canvas cover over hoops like a
miniature Conestoga)
As has been stated, modern tubular-steel gun carts, or modern balloon-tired wheels are to be avoided. I know one person who kept a modified pair of those small, old time steel-rim farm implement wheels to change out for his modern wheels on his gun cart when going to an NCOWS match.
What with the huge popularity of Working Cowboy and The Originals, both two-gun categories, most find they don't need more than a pair of saddlebags, a haversack or a plain old poke sack to carry what they need.
I have always hated gun carts, in fact I think the point when they came along is pretty much were SASS started down hill . . .
One thing that has seemed to grow with the gun modification race is people have a tendency to empty out their gun safes. Way too much stuff is carted to and from a shoot, far more than a person can carry without some kind of conveyance. (And where
did those 'Taco Stand' beach umbrellas come from? ;))
NCOWS will always allow the use of gun carts for safety and convenience of those shooters who wish to use them, especially for those range situations where there are insufficient racks, or the firing line is a goodly trek from the parking lot. Afterall, we're all getting older . . .
RCJ
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Roscoe......Damn pardner you sound like me, so much so, you just might be my evil twin that I've never met. Besides gun carts, my pet peeves are hats, and short stroked anything (you can use you own imagination).
Bill
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Hey Bill, its nice to run into like minded folks. I'm with you on bad hats and short strokes. Life's too short to have either one. We all have things we are working on, aint none of us perfect, but its often just as easy to do a thing right as it is to do it wrong. Knowledge is power and spending a little time with a book and a critical eye can make all the difference. By trade I am an historian and historical archaeologist, I like the old things and I want to do it right.
Anyway, I'm a little out of sorts at the moment as I am down with pneumonia and pleurisy, no kidding, pleurisy! Now if I could only come down with TB I'd have the full compliment of 19th century lung diseases! Maybe I'll be a little less peevish when I'm better but until then...
Death to gun carts!!
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Death to gun carts!!
Roscoe, My sentiments also! Even with all the stuff I have to cary shooting pistoleer, and several physical issues, I still refuse to be seen using a cart. Besides my cassa is only 10 minuts from OCB, He would never let me live it down ;D. I don't have a problem with those other guys using them, after all such things were available in 1940's Hollywood ::) I'm happy to stay as period as possible. Thats what makes it fun for me. Our theme is PERIOD after all. Regards Jed
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How about everyone shows up with pack mules, pack horses, and pommels? :o
Oh, and I don't believe they carried little pooper scooper shovels back in the period correct days..... ::)
To each his/her own, but in the name of safety and simplicity, and old age ;D, I see no reason for hardlining the use of carts......
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(And where did those 'Taco Stand' beach umbrellas come from? ;))
Let me guess. You don't shoot in the Southwest, or in the inland valleys of SoCal, in the summer do ya? :D :D
Nope, they aren't historically accurate by any means. However, on those days when there are no clouds, its 102 in the shade, and 140+ in the sun, they do serve a vital purpose.
-- Daniel (whut don't shoot NCOWS) Nighteyes
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I've been thinking long and hard about this problem. Obviously, 19th century shootists didn't lug gun carts around to fights. It would have looked ludicrous for Doc, Wyatt, Morgan and Virgil to be pulling their carts down Fremont Street to the alley behind the OK. Their legend would have been comedic rather than heroic had they done so.
But most period gunfighters didn't have to contend with 2 pistols, a long gun, and a shotgun, along with hundreds of rounds, earplugs, eye shields, and all the other accoutrements of their modern-day counterparts.
So what to do?
After careful historic research I have come up with suggestions for guncarts which, if parked discreetly near the firing line, might be less obtrusive than our modern, umbrella-bedecked outrages. To whit:
1) The scale replica gypsy cart. Merely saw a hole in the roof for barrels. Add midget gypsies for true authenticity.
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/gypsy.jpg)
2) Antique plough. You can tie your long guns to the tines in the rear. Disadvantage: hard to pull from stage to stage, but if doing so you might scatter a few seeds along the way for future range improvement.
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/plough.jpg)
3) The scale replica hearse. No explanation required.
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/hearse.jpg)
4) The surrey. Entire posse can use this cart, just add gun racks. Posse can push this from stage to stage.
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/surrey.jpg)
5) For our northern brothers, the miniature sleigh. Posse can sing Christmas carols as the glide through the stages.
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/sleigh.jpg)
6) My favorite:the goat-gun-cart. The advantages of having a goat to pull that heavy load of long guns, cartridges, sun screen, water bottles, cell phones, etc., is obvious. In the first example, merely replace children with guns. This is, on the whole, not a bad rule in general.
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/goat2.jpg)
The Yellowhammer Cowboy Goat Cart! Patent Pending!
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/goat1.jpg)
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Let me guess. You don't shoot in the Southwest, or in the inland valleys of SoCal, in the summer do ya? :D :D
Nope, they aren't historically accurate by any means. However, on those days when there are no clouds, its 102 in the shade, and 140+ in the sun, they do serve a vital purpose.
-- Daniel (whut don't shoot NCOWS) Nighteyes
No, but I shoot in the hot, humid midwest during the dog days of August. ;D
We have people who use shade umbrellas. But they're in solids,- either natural, grey or earthtone canvas. I guess I should be specific, it's the brightly colored ones that I find glaring.
And if there isn't an NCOWS club near you, you can still enjoy one of the benefits by being a member, - The Shootist.
We'd love to have you as a member.
RCJ
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I look at gun carts the same way I look at our modern eye protection, hearing protection, and electronic shot timers. They are all modern devices which make our shooting experience safer and for some, more enjoyable. Some shooters need carts due to their physical condition. Some ranges mandate the use of gun carts due to foot travel distance and the lack of rifle racks. (I shot at one range in central Texas that had a 500 foot, uphill walk from the parking area to the firing line.)
The umbrellas are a nice addition during the summer, especially at our range where we lack natural cover.
I do think shooters who choose to use carts should make them blend into the period scene as much as possible.
Pancho
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No, but I shoot in the hot, humid midwest during the dog days of August. ;D
Having grown up on the central Gulf Coast (LA, MS, AL, FL), I can say with a fair amount of authority that the humid heat of which you're speaking is significantly different from the raise-a-blister-on-a-saddle heat experienced out here!
-- Nighteyes
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How about everyone shows up with pack mules, pack horses, and pommels? :o
Oh, and I don't believe they carried little pooper scooper shovels back in the period correct days..... ::)
To each his/her own, but in the name of safety and simplicity, and old age ;D, I see no reason for hardlining the use of carts......
Well for one, we're talking about NCOWS, if you want to use them in SASS or the other CAS shooting areas fine! I know we are seeing less and less of them at NCOWS events. Don't spoil our game by trying to bring bad manners to ours.
Gun carts used by what ever few NCOWS members are still using them are used because they still refuse to realize that a man, or woman for that matter didn't walk around with fifteen different firearms and 10,000 rounds of ammunition, it has nothing to do with pack mules and scoop shovels.
And this is an NCOWS fourm.
OCB
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Plans about gun carts ....
I see both sides of this coin.
On the one hand, most guncarts are about as historic as the Winnebagos parked at a three day shoot.
On th other, ours is not a youth predominated sport. I can think of more than several members who would be kept from participating if they were forced to carry all their weapons, ammo and paraphenalia between stages ... and especially from the parking lot. ... hell, I have bone on bone on one knee and I am so thankful when I can borrow a gun cart just to keep from having to make several trips to my car on that knee ...
But somebody in my past said that if all one does is complain without offering solutions, that just makes one part of the problem.
My plans for a gun cart? A 'hand cart' made up of plow handles, steel wheels and strap iron stiffeners. On top of it, just as it would have been in a Victorian train station, would be a psuedo steamer trunk whose doors open to become a gun case. If one were to really get into it, above the trunk could be an old (or at least old looking) wood ammo box that could hold ammo, leather and outsized articles. It wouldn't be hard to add wrought iron loops to hold an umbrella, and a folding stool rack.
The other thought that comes to mind for the wooden artists in our group would be about a quarter scale chuck wagon, where when one pulls down the hinged table from the rear, where all the foodstuffs used to be stored would be a long gun rack. Ane there would be plenty of room inside the wagon for the coolers et al, out of the sun and out of visual ... I think if someone offered an affordable precut kit of either, one would see far more of them at competitions ... not too many people have a woodshop at their disposal ....
Just my $0.02 ...
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Let me guess. You don't shoot in the Southwest, or in the inland valleys of SoCal, in the summer do ya? :D :D
Nope, they aren't historically accurate by any means. However, on those days when there are no clouds, its 102 in the shade, and 140+ in the sun, they do serve a vital purpose.
-- Daniel (whut don't shoot NCOWS) Nighteyes
Daniel,
We have a posse in southern California, The Hat Creek Regulators. Now they are out of Bakersfield, I've been to Bakersfield and I think that is southern Cal. I can guarantee you that Joss House and his gang don't use gun carts or beach umbrellas. Heat is just another excuse to use a modern conveyance for what ever you want to bring to a match.
And, by the way it was something not seen at the early SASS shoots, I was fortunate that I was able to attend two of the original End of Trails when they were still in California, there wasn't a gun cart or a beach umbrella any where to be seen.
Now, SASS is race guns, short stroked rifles......not what I signed on when SASS started......I hope NCOWS never goes that route and I'm pretty sure (since we are a member owned group) that it never will.
OCB
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Plans about gun carts ....
I see both sides of this coin.
On the one hand, most guncarts are about as historic as the Winnebagos parked at a three day shoot.
On th other, ours is not a youth predominated sport. I can think of more than several members who would be kept from participating if they were forced to carry all their weapons, ammo and paraphenalia between stages ... and especially from the parking lot. ... hell, I have bone on bone on one knee and I am so thankful when I can borrow a gun cart just to keep from having to make several trips to my car on that knee ...
But somebody in my past said that if all one does is complain without offering solutions, that just makes one part of the problem.
My plans for a gun cart? A 'hand cart' made up of plow handles, steel wheels and strap iron stiffeners. On top of it, just as it would have been in a Victorian train station, would be a psuedo steamer trunk whose doors open to become a gun case. If one were to really get into it, above the trunk could be an old (or at least old looking) wood ammo box that could hold ammo, leather and outsized articles. It wouldn't be hard to add wrought iron loops to hold an umbrella, and a folding stool rack.
The other thought that comes to mind for the wooden artists in our group would be about a quarter scale chuck wagon, where when one pulls down the hinged table from the rear, where all the foodstuffs used to be stored would be a long gun rack. Ane there would be plenty of room inside the wagon for the coolers et al, out of the sun and out of visual ... I think if someone offered an affordable precut kit of either, one would see far more of them at competitions ... not too many people have a woodshop at their disposal ....
Just my $0.02 ...
Wadd....Those are a lot less obtrusive...but its still a gun cart. The real answer to gun carts is....less guns.
OCB
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Good discussion and my compliments to all!
Years ago when my Pards & I attended NCOWS Shoots, most of the ranges were at least 1/8 of a mile or more away from the parking area and we needed to haul all of our 'stuff' to the range since there was rarely any other way to get 'stuff' to the stages and lunch was back up by the parking area. To solve the need to carry everything we created a railroad hand cart unit as RCJ mentioned and hid most all of our things inside and out of sight. The first rig worked so well we built a bigger, better and more historically-perfect unit that consisted of a steamer trunk on its side with a wood dynamite box and an old wood hardware box on top of that to hide and carry everything. All pieces were original to the period and researched, it fit my personae as a RR Freight Agent, I portrayed my G-G-father.
The bottom of the trunk was bolted with hidden bolts to the hand truck which was fitted out on the inside with two rows of gun racks made out of locally grown and hand-cut Walnut, the trunk was lined with red sateen material and brass tacks of the period, the original paper on the inside of the curved lid was retained.
The wood boxes were bolted to the top of the trunk and a square hole was cut into the top of the trunk and padded so that the barrels of the rifles and shotguns could go up though the opening. The bottom of the box on top of the trunk was bolted to the truck so that the 'real' lid opened out, it was also padded with the red material and brass tacks and had leather straps to hold all our Pocket Pistols. On the door a holster to hold a 12" bbl revolver was installed. The top box opened up, inside the red material held in place with brass tacks contained compartments to hold replica ammo boxes, eye and ear protection, a timer and other extras.
The entire package looked exactly like it came from a railroad loading dock. It could hold 4 rifles and 4 shotguns, the big revolver and 4 Pocket Pistols as well as enough ammo for the whole Shoot for 3-4 Shooters. It was well-balanced and made for easy moving to the range and back, we hauled it in the back of my Suburban with little or no trouble loading and unloading.
Why did we need it? It was designed by me to hold enough for us all to go and "...look good doing it." as Will Ketchum says. As I mentioned above, most all of the ranges we shot at were quite a ways from the parking area and to schlep all the rifles, shotguns, revolvers and P.P.'s and enough ammo was sometimes difficult especially with a bad back and knees so it became an essential item for our enjoyment of the hobby and event.
Sorry, but I don't have pics of it but many here may recall it at a Nationals from the past, I think a pic may be in a past issue of THE SHOOTIST in a review of a Nationals event at Ackley, Iowa. When we stopped attending Shoots due to various reasons we sold the rig at the last NCOWS Convention held in Waterloo, Iowa. An NCOWS Pard from Minnesota bought it so it is probably making the rounds up North. Hated to sell it as it was a movie-quality prop, many said it would have fit right into a Spaghetti-type Western.
We didn't have the classes available then like Originals and W.C. and it was generally assumed all scenarios would utilize everything you brought, i.e., 2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1, shotgun and a P.P. on each and every stage, sometimes twice! Times change, for good or bad the guncart served a purpose for some ranges, others not. We attended many where they had a close-in range and just went back to the truck when we needed some more of this or that. Again, there were no Originals or W.C. classes then, were our health such that we could attend a Shoot now we would no doubt follow the path of the W.C. since it has a limited amount of 'stuff' to carry.
One wise wag earlier said we are all getting older and can't carry as much or walk as far as we used to but we still enjoy the hobby. 'IF' a range had racks at each stage, 'IF' a range had a method to transport Shooters from the away parking area to the range then the perceived need for a guncart becomes a moot point, however, not all ranges or clubs are set to provide these services and that certainly is something to consider when setting up an event. If health issues are prevalent, then a 'historically-correct conveyance' should be researched and implemented, it ain't hard and is a lot of fun putting one together to match your personae.
This is a great discussion and many more good comments will be forthcoming, interesting that W.W.E. mentioned he has the same rig in mind, he also suffers from the same knee malady I do so this furthers the point of involving history in guncart design if one is really needed to make the event/hobby doable and enjoyable. O.C.B. also hits it right on the head with his comment about "...less guns.", how wonderful a thought to have all scenarios written like that, perhaps some day...
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925
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Daniel,
We have a posse in southern California, The Hat Creek Regulators. Now they are out of Bakersfield, I've been to Bakersfield and I think that is southern Cal. I can guarantee you that Joss House and his gang don't use gun carts or beach umbrellas. Heat is just another excuse to use a modern conveyance for what ever you want to bring to a match.
Bill,
Don't misunderstand me. I wasn't advocating for NCOWS' use of gun carts; I was just responding (with what I erroneously thought was a touch of humor) to River City John's rather tongue-in-cheek question. This is an NCOWS topic board and an NCOWS thread. Since I'm not an NCOWS shooter, anything I may have to say should have little or no impact.
My CAS sports (W3G and SASS) require 4 guns per stage, typically with 8 stages per match. Eight stages usually mean around 175 rounds of 45 Colt and 50 rounds of 12-gauge, plus about a gallon of water in the summer. Add to that a small trauma kit and a few gun-cleaning and -repair tools, and you're beginning to talk some weight.
At the age of 63, and with my neck, back, knees and ankle the way they are, while I could possibly carry all of that around all day, I ain't a-gonna.
So your point about "less guns" is a good one...
Regards,
-- Nighteyes
PS I think Bakersfield is more properly considered "central California", being as it is located in the San Joaquin Valley.
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I've seen it asked "what other options are there?"
For those of us that shoot Working Cowboy, are slings an option? I'm brand spanking new at this so I don't know if that's a stupid question or not. I don't know if the older guns were set up for gun slings, I don't know if they were in common use during the period, and I don't know if there's any way to lock the lever open while you carry it slung over your shoulder (pointing up) so it's considered "safe".
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Howdy pards!
Very interesting and some very clever humour, too!
I've been thinking long and hard about this problem. Obviously, 19th century shootists didn't lug gun carts around to fights. It would have looked ludicrous for Doc, Wyatt, Morgan and Virgil to be pulling their carts down Fremont Street to the alley behind the OK. Their legend would have been comedic rather than heroic had they done so.
But most period gunfighters didn't have to contend with 2 pistols, a long gun, and a shotgun, along with hundreds of rounds, earplugs, eye shields, and all the other accoutrements of their modern-day counterparts.
So what to do?
After careful historic research I have come up with suggestions for guncarts which, if parked discreetly near the firing line, might be less obtrusive than our modern, umbrella-bedecked outrages. To whit:
1) The scale replica gypsy cart. Merely saw a hole in the roof for barrels. Add midget gypsies for true authenticity.
2) Antique plow. You can tie your long guns to the tines in the rear. Disadvantage: hard to pull from stage to stage, but if doing so you might scatter a few seeds along the way for future range improvement.
3) The scale replica hearse. No explanation required.
4) The surrey. Entire posse can use this cart, just add gun racks. Posse can push this from stage to stage.
5) For our northern brothers, the miniature sleigh. Posse can sing Christmas carols as the glide through the stages.
6) My favorite:the goat-gun-cart. The advantages of having a goat to pull that heavy load of long guns, cartridges, sun screen, water bottles, cell phones, etc., is obvious. In the first example, merely replace children with guns. This is, on the whole, not a bad rule in general.
(images deleted for reasons of space)
The Yellowhammer Cowboy Goat Cart! Patent Pending!
JD - I like the way your mind wanders into the "options" territory! I ESPECIALLY like the sleigh suggestion! Singing Christmas carols, indeed!
Speaking of "options:"
I've seen it asked "what other options are there?"
For those of us that shoot Working Cowboy, are slings an option? I'm brand spanking new at this so I don't know if that's a stupid question or not. I don't know if the older guns were set up for gun slings, I don't know if they were in common use during the period, and I don't know if there's any way to lock the lever open while you carry it slung over your shoulder (pointing up) so it's considered "safe".
kflach, Slings weren't common, but they were certainly available. The military has used slings for centuries.
At the clubs where I shoot, the Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society http://home.comcast.net/~tcrange/SMVS/smvsindex.htm , and the Great Lakes Freight & Mining Co. http://home.comcast.net/~glfmcposse/
Here's an option that I use: when I do decide to shoot shotgun, I carry it in a leather, fringed sheath they I added a latigo leather sling to. (Latigo is a special curing process that makes VERY strong leather and is often used for saddle ties, bootlaces and anything that requires great "pull" strength.) I simply loop it over as if the shotgun had a sling. Since the rules say that when out of a guncase the action must be open, I simply leave it in the sheath until I get to the weapon racks on the range. Then, as soon as I take it out, I open the action and insure that the weapon is (still) clear and that I haven't left my A-Zoom snap-caps in the chambers. This sheath is for my shoot-gun, but it can be done with my rifle as well, I simply haven't added any latigo "string" on my other rifle sheaths ... I have 5 types. I can put all my needed ammo in either my saddlebags or one of my "carpetbags." My pistol (pistols if needed) is holstered and worn, the saddlebag is over the shoulder, rifle open and clear in hand and that still leaves me a hand free for my cane, which, depending on my meds, is needed for me to walk fairly normally. ::)
Who needs a packmule! I AM a packmule. I guess we're lucky here in Indiana in that the parking area is less than 200-250 yds. from the range shooting area.
Options ... I love options and choices.
;D ;)
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Howdy pards!
Very interesting and some very clever humour, too!
JD - I like the way your mind wanders into the "options" territory! I ESPECIALLY like the sleigh suggestion! Singing Christmas carols, indeed!
;D ;)
Thanks, Jeff! I was beginning to think I'd inadvertantly placed some humor in a very, very serious topic. 8)
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JD, I appreciated the humor as well.
Steel Horse, That's a brilliant solution! I didn't know that a sheath was considered a case so this hadn't crossed my mind.
OK, I admit it - I was focused on figuring out how I'd be able to pack a hearse into the trunk of my Toyota Carrolla. Since one of the persona's I've been considering is an undertaker that seemed appropriate.
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Thanks, Jeff! I was beginning to think I'd inadvertently placed some humor in a very, very serious topic. 8)
Good humor is ALWAYS welcome, JD! Even MY humour is welcomed ... listened to ... tolerated. ;) By the way, I enjoyed your website. Do you go by Jeff, too?
But it IS a kinda serious topic.
JD, I appreciated the humor as well.
Steel Horse, That's a brilliant solution! I didn't know that a sheath was considered a case so this hadn't crossed my mind.
OK, I admit it - I was focused on figuring out how I'd be able to pack a hearse into the trunk of my Toyota Corolla. Since one of the persona's I've been considering is an undertaker that seemed appropriate.
The hearse would be great - but kinda difficult to handle. :D You might keel over trying to get it from stage to stage. ::) :o Then you'd REALLY NEED IT!
:D :D :D ::)
;D
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Recommended NCOWS guncart.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/PackIronScabbard.jpg)
Unquestioned authenticity.
(spectators are discouraged from wearing open toed shoes at events where these conveyances are employed)
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Interesting stuff. I think there is something to the claim that gun carts lead to a tendency to bring way too much stuff along. I know that we have to bring quite a bit of stuff but I have seen the trend in SASS to double the requirement in the way of having "spares." I have seen folks carrying around two complete sets of guns, way too much ammo, spare parts and tool kits pretty much because they can. Even stranger, I have seen folks in sass carry around different ammunition in case they need to deal with knock downs. In the period very few people had a handgun, rifle and shotgun (let alone two handguns) and I'm as sure as I can be that no one carried around four revolvers, two shotguns, two rifles and specialized ammunition, just in case.
It should not be that complicated. How much do you really need to shoot a match? You need your guns, your ammo, your glasses, your hearing protection and maybe some water. So bring a canteen, put your glasses and your earplugs in your pocket, carry your guns and put your ammo in a sack or some saddle bags. What else do you need? Personally, I think its less trouble to carry my stuff than to drag around an overloaded gun cart.
I do like the idea of having a period conveyance, like a wagon, goat cart or pack animal to carry the gear but few could make it work. I would even accept a period automobile (a pre 1899 horseless carriage). But I hate the gun cart.
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One of these would work, one could get a big wagon and tote lots of stuff.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/Camp%20Creek/5152009033.jpg)
this one was built in 1910, but like a SAA of the same vintage it's pretty much the same. ;)
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Daniel,
now let me get this straight, you want to have a "mine's-bigger-than-yours"- contest over who suffers the most in the humidity? I mean, the winner would actually be the loser! ;D 8) ;D ;D
I do enjoy your posts here in CAS City.
RCJ
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Good humor is ALWAYS welcome, JD! Even MY humour is welcomed ... listened to ... tolerated. ;) By the way, I enjoyed your website. Do you go by Jeff, too?
But it IS a kinda serious topic.
The hearse would be great - but kinda difficult to handle. :D You might keel over trying to get it from stage to stage. ::) :o Then you'd REALLY NEED IT!
:D :D :D ::)
;D
Thanks again, Jeff. I actually go by J.D. My full name, Jefferson, has too many syllables for most people to reliably get out of their mouths.
I'd love to have a 1/4 scale hearse for my guns, but I think I'd still get in trouble for NCOWS purposes. However, I still have hopes for the goat cart, and I defy anyone who challenges me, if I can succeed in training a goat! ;D
My mother used to ride around in a goat cart as a child in Alabama, and while that wasn't in the 19th century, it wasn't too far away from it. The little town she lived in hasn't changed much (if you've seen the book or movie Fried Green Tomatoes, you have an idea how it looks. The story took place in the same neighborhood).
Del--Shame on you! A 1900's tractor?! Twentieth century, man, twentieth!
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Daniel,
now let me get this straight, you want to have a "mine's-bigger-than-yours"- contest over who suffers the most in the humidity? I mean, the winner would actually be the loser! ;D 8) ;D ;D
I do enjoy your posts here in CAS City.
RCJ
I think that prize goes to the camp cook. ;D
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Hey Del....
I got some good footage of you cleaning a Sharps rifle while at Rock Creek station. I've got the DVD from RCJ, and permission from them to use some of the contents, and your footage will be in the promo DVD as will some of the other stuff on that DVD.
Bill
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Hey Del....
I got some good footage of you cleaning a Sharps rifle while at Rock Creek station. I've got the DVD from RCJ, and permission from them to use some of the contents, and your footage will be in the promo DVD as will some of the other stuff on that DVD.
Bill
I don't have any other video or you'd be welcome to it, BTW that was taken in 2000 down there, had forgot all about it. BTW check out the guy running toward the bushes at the shoot out, good fall, to bad it wasn't all fake.
If you want any stills let me know what you are looking for.
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Daniel,
now let me get this straight, you want to have a "mine's-bigger-than-yours"- contest over who suffers the most in the humidity? I mean, the winner would actually be the loser! ;D 8) ;D ;D
I do enjoy your posts here in CAS City.
RCJ
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My mother used to ride around in a goat cart as a child in Alabama...
I knew it - I knew it - I knew it! Anybody with the name "Yellowhammer" just GOT to be from Alabama!!!! ('Cept we'd prob'ly say it as "yellah-hammah" -- an' likely precede it with "Rammah-Jammah", right?)
<----- from South Alabama
The little town she lived in hasn't changed much (if you've seen the book or movie Fried Green Tomatoes, you have an idea how it looks. The story took place in the same neighborhood).
There's hundreds of little towns like that all over Alabama and Mississippi -- probably Georgia too, if you look along the back roads. And, in every small town that's worth calling a town there is - or was - most likely a "City Cafe" or "Town Cafe" or some such. That describes the Whistle Stop Cafe to a tee. Usually doesn't look like much from the outside, but they're always crowded because they serve excellent food!
BTW, Fried Green Tomatoes is my favorite movie about the South. They got it dang near perfect. Of course, that's because the author, comedienne Fanny Flagg, is from Alabama.
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Regarding the "too many guns comments",
My view point: I like to shoot. I like to shoot alot.
My day job keeps me very busy with long hours and the 1 or 2 opportunities a month where I can go to a match, I usually always sign up for the 4 gun class . . . so I can shoot 4 guns. Realizing that an NCOWS match is a competitive shooting sport event, I don't see any reason to frown on folks that "take too many guns" to a match. I usually go to a match with 2 rifles, 2 shotguns, 3 to 4 handguns, and sometimes a pocket pistol and big bore rifle. If I see a stage where my 24" barrel sporting rifle will be more handy, I'll use it. If the 20" short rifle allows me to poke through a window quicker, I'll use it. I agree with OCB in frowning on short strokes and other non-period technology.
Some big matches are costly to enter and require an extended drive (11 hours each way to the Nationals this year). I see no reason not to bring some 'back-up guns', in case you have a mechanical failure. If you've shot CAS long enough, you know these failures do happen, even with well maintained guns.
Is this historically correct . . . no, but is it fun . . .yes. I almost alway have a gun cart that is compliant with NCOWS regulations. The only time I don't is when I choose to shoot working cowboy. If I was attending an event that was an actual reinactment, I would have no gun cart, because they did not exist in the period we observe. Do remember that NCOWS matches are not a true reinactment, but rather a period focused shooting match.
As long as NCOWS allows such, I will shoot my four gun class and usually will carry them in my NCOWS legal conveyance. I will enjoy the match along side my compadres competing in the shooting classes which they enjoy.
Pancho
P.S.: Bad hats should be outlawed.
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All – What an excellent thread and it is providing for some excellent discourse.
Gun carts are, indeed, not a good thing in a general sense. Should they be outlawed in NCOWS? Were it brought to a vote there would be no objection from me to ban them outright. Also would go for a ban on bad hats. Next are the electronic timers and boiler plate targets…. (please forgive my indiscretions, I’m a bit right of center regarding the PC movement….)
A couple of concepts for more historically acceptable conveyances in lieu of gun carts follow…..
For the regular chap:
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-4/1252580/saddlebags.jpg)
For the more dandy-ish/dude and civilised sort of chap:
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-4/1252580/carpetbagMcLeanhouse.jpg)
Of course there are haversacks and the like as well. Such period things, to not include gun carts, would suffice at NCOWS events in a reasonable world.
Brass
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Jack, you can add samwhiches from pre-sliced bread to that, PM me if you want, I have a funny story I was told about that several years ago. ;D
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I've seen it asked "what other options are there?"
For those of us that shoot Working Cowboy, are slings an option? I'm brand spanking new at this so I don't know if that's a stupid question or not. I don't know if the older guns were set up for gun slings, I don't know if they were in common use during the period, and I don't know if there's any way to lock the lever open while you carry it slung over your shoulder (pointing up) so it's considered "safe".
You can make a removable sling, just to carry it with. A strap with loops at each end, put one loop over the muzzle, the other in the trigger guard area of the open lever. You have to experiment with the length, as long as the strap is not too long, it can't come off of the muzzle. May not be PC, but as soon as you get to the gun rack, then you can just roll it up and stash it in the saddlebags or whatever you're carryng your ammo in. That's what I sometimes do at the local SASS shoot, when I pack everything out there on a motorcycle. If there was an NCOWS posse nearby, that working cowboy class would be just right for a biker-shooter.
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Monterrey......
On the second photo I would have used the word "Wispy" ;D ;D
OCB
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A haversack is another good option.
(http://www.jarnaginco.com/artwork/catalog/Haver_Knapsacks/latewarhaversack.jpg)
I used a tarred haversack, like the one shown, for years until I got a set of saddlebags one year for Christmas. The untarred haversacks can be found from CW sutlers for under $20.
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Pancho – I see your point about shooting and that in this crazy modern life when one goes out for a relaxing/fun time to make the most of it. And, as with other shooting sports/clubs, NCOWS is first & foremost a shooting organization. The trick, I believe, and constant struggle is to find the balance between shooting and history. NCOWS is the front line of finding a balance of some sort between the two. No easy task.
Delmonico – You have an extra sammich..?!?! I’m all for it, too bad you’re in Nebraskey and I’m in the north eastern section of the mid west. Makes visiting over some good chow difficult!
OCB – I own that most excellent Family Heirloom Weavers repro carpet bag and I, unfortunately, resemble ‘wispy’ in name only. As you know I’m a rather rotund fellow and thin/wispy doesn’t work for me as it would Jerry Barnes or Dr B. No matter, I’ll keep trying to get down to my fighting weight mon ami! By the bye, I hear-tell you’re coming to the state shoot in Michigan to film? Look me up, will be camped there with some pards. Only one of us is shooting and the rest of us will be lounging about, cooking up some grub, a-hootin’ and a-hollerin’ &c. If you’re coming let me know and we’ll sport you a cup of coffee (and it can be fortified if’n you and William are looking for an extra jolt…!)
Brass
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I knew it - I knew it - I knew it! Anybody with the name "Yellowhammer" just GOT to be from Alabama!!!! ('Cept we'd prob'ly say it as "yellah-hammah" -- an' likely precede it with "Rammah-Jammah", right?)
<----- from South Alabama
There's hundreds of little towns like that all over Alabama and Mississippi -- probably Georgia too, if you look along the back roads. And, in every small town that's worth calling a town there is - or was - most likely a "City Cafe" or "Town Cafe" or some such. That describes the Whistle Stop Cafe to a tee. Usually doesn't look like much from the outside, but they're always crowded because they serve excellent food!
BTW, Fried Green Tomatoes is my favorite movie about the South. They got it dang near perfect. Of course, that's because the author, comedienne Fanny Flagg, is from Alabama.
How-Do, Bruthuh! :D
Fannie Flag wrote that about the area both my folks are from. My dad's family were the original white settlers of Opelika in the early 1800's and my mom was from Notasulga. Those train tracks in the movie look like they were filmed in Notasulga (tho they weren't) where my mom used to play (they were always warned to watch out fer the hobos). As fer Rammer Jammer--my dad went to the U of A and my sis was born in Tuscaloosa. I've always struggled to deal with this, since I was raised primarily in Tenn. and Orange clashes with Red (Crimson ::) )
And yes, you're right, "Yellowhammer" is a homage to my bloodline. ;) I'll dig up the story on that, involving the War Between the States and Nathan Bedford Forrest's boys.
Whereabouts you from?
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Back to the debate:
I only carry one of everything I need (4 guns, etc), but my wife shoots with me so that doubles everything. She's 5' tall and barely 100 pounds. It would be a bit of trouble to carry our entire armament on our backs (though I'd do it if the situation demanded).
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J.D., Roll Tide. My shooting hand once had the honor of shaking the hand of the Great BEAR BRYANT. Tj :)
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Monterry Jack Brass->
Bags like that second one can still get you killed in some parts of the country <grin>.
Pony Express->
If you have any pictures I'd love to see 'em. That's an interesting idea that may be more 'doable' in the short term than a sheath, since I'd probably have to make whatever I use myself at first before I could buy one that's actually well-made.
Dutch Limbach->
I'd been thinking I'd make myself some kind of canvas bag, but that looks like a better option. I'll check that out.
All->
Pancho most definitely loves to shoot!! And he does a mighty fine job of it, too.
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Whereabouts you from?
I lived in Mobile from 1958 (age 12) through 1988 (age 42), with a "detour" courtesy of Uncle Sam. I've got relatives up in Red Bay AL, and my parents' families are from Webster County MS.
Had a job once that required me to travel the southern half of Alabama on a regular basis. Been to or through nearly all those small towns I previously spoke of.
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Regarding the "too many guns comments",
I usually go to a match with 2 rifles, 2 shotguns, 3 to 4 handguns, and sometimes a pocket pistol and big bore rifle. If I see a stage where my 24" barrel sporting rifle will be more handy, I'll use it. If the 20" short rifle allows me to poke through a window quicker, I'll use it.
Pancho
Hmmm....I think I'll use the 9-iron, oops, I mean the goose gun on this stage. ;) ;D
You got a golf bag full of clubs, you might as well use them. Oh, crap; I mean guns. :) ;D
I don't see gun carts beig outlawed. Some of them are pretty neat. Not authentic, but neat.
I have heard of some being diguised as, barrels or luggage. Now that would be really neat.
Books
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...Dutch Limbach->
I'd been thinking I'd make myself some kind of canvas bag, but that looks like a better option. I'll check that out...
kflach,
The tarred haversack will protect its contents from rain. The one I've got also has a bag that lines the inside of haversack. I did sew up some canvas bags that I would use to separate different things in the haversack. I use to put one or two boxes of ammo per bag. I figured if a lid came off a box I'd rather fish the loose shells out of a small bag rather than chase them around the bottom of the haversack. It did seem though that being wrap in the bags help keep the lids on my ammo boxes.
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2) Antique plough. You can tie your long guns to the tines in the rear. Disadvantage: hard to pull from stage to stage, but if doing so you might scatter a few seeds along the way for future range improvement.
(http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/plough.jpg)
Actually, that's a hay-rake. But it would be good to have, so the posse can make hay while the sun shines... ::) :P ;)
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Dutch,
I did a search for "CW Sutlers" but couldn't find it. Could you send me the name of their web site?
---[Modified]-------
Never mind - I've figured out that you were referring to Civill War sutlers in general and not to a specific web site.
I found some.
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I bring a gun cart to most every match at our home posse. Reason? It is very common for new shooters to show up with nothing but a smile and a hope. I bring an extra batch of ammo, guns, etc., so they can share my cart as I accompany them from stage to stage, schooling them and trying to give them the needed information about our beloved activity. Now if I'm going to some other club to shoot and won't be anyone's "mentor" I'll take my saddlebags some times.
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I haven't had this out of the shed in several years but here is my old guncart.
(http://www.lone-gunman.com/LGcart.jpg)
The main section is an old dome top trunk (http://www.eagletrunks.com/antiquetrunkhistory/trunkhistorystyles.html), (I don't recall now if it's a camel-back or hump-back), the Arbuckles coffee keg began life as a prop in the movie "Ride with the Devil (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0134154/)", (there's a hole cut in the trunk to allow the gun barrels to fit up inside the keg), the handles are from an old garden push cultivator (http://www.farmhardware.com/images/products/large/50/50987.gif), and the wooden spoke wheels were scavenged from a broken goat cart (http://bobbys-hobbys.com/images/GoatCart.gif). A piece of heavy canvas is tacked across the bottom of the trunk lid to form a big pocket for misc treasure. On the left side there are a couple of belts so different holsters can be attached depending on what you might need for extra pistols.
I'll see if I can find some better pictures. I should have some of Ol Gabe's freight cart too. The worst example I recall seeing (this was NOT at an NCOWS shoot) was just a green plastic Scotts lawn spreader with a notched board affixed to the handle with a couple of radiator hose clamps. ::)
(http://www.garden4less.co.uk/prodimages/scotts/scotts-evengreen-garden-lawn-spreader.jpg)
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Dutch,
I did a search for "CW Sutlers" but couldn't find it. Could you send me the name of their web site?
---[Modified]-------
Never mind - I've figured out that you were referring to Civill War sutlers in general and not to a specific web site.
I found some.
Here's one of the best - and where I THINK Dutch got his tarred haversack:
http://fcsutler.com/
Hope ya don't mind me answering as I'm not Dutch.
;)
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Okay, with all this talk of Alabama, I have a question.
The one page history I have of my great-grandfaterh, whom I take my monniker from says that he came from Santa Rosa joined the Confederate Army in Alabama.
I know of a Santa Rosa Florida and Santa Rosa Sound in Florida.
Was there a Santa Rosa in Alabama?
Thought one of you might know....
Thanks!
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Steel Horse, thanks! That's the one I found when I looked up Haversack. Great minds think alike.
And I'm not Dutch either.
I'm Texan.
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Okay, with all this talk of Alabama, I have a question.
---Snip ---
Was there a Santa Rosa in Alabama?
Thought one of you might know....
Thanks!
Not that I know of, and I know most of southern Alabama pretty well. Of course, small settlements came and went fairly quickly in the Antebellum South, and names changed as well. Its also possible he was from the Santa Rosa area in Florida.
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The one page history I have of my great-grandfaterh, whom I take my monniker from says that he came from Santa Rosa joined the Confederate Army in Alabama.
I don't know of one, either. He may have just come up to AL to join a unit there. If you check with the Alabama state library, they've got the pension records for vets and you can get copies. It might disclose more. You may also be able to get his CSA records from the feds in D.C. I checked with both got info on a couple of my great-great-grandpappys. I'll see if I can put my hands on the relevant web addresses....
Tj, I hope you never washed your hand again after shaking with The Great Bear. :D
Daniel, I didn't think that was a plough! But that's what the caption said. My farming relatives would be sooo embarassed for me! :-[
Lone Gunman--that's one Hell of a cart!!! That's downright slick!
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FYI:
Theres a gent on the SASS wire selling a Calgraf Coffin gun cart for real cheap (almost 1/2 the retail price). He's not far from me. If anybody in this area is interested, let me know.
If you ain't seen one, they're real smart: Small 48" coffin on wheels that opens up and holds all your long guns and ammo.
Pancho
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Anyone know if either NCOWS or SASS would allow a guncart fashioned after the earliest automobiles?
I am thinking electric, gas, or even steam powered.
I would not drive it into the shooting area with other carts necessarily, but station it just outside the stage.
Here is what I am thinking about, more or less:
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We usually have a roped off area that gun carts have to be left behind that area.
Remember our era is 1865-1899. and there is no evidence that gun carts ever even
existed. Your idea looks cool although probably not historically correct.
BTB
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Well the Popp Motorwagon that J.B. pictured is an 1898 model. If carts are allowed at all, I would certainly vote yes (NCOWS). For SASS, it is strictly a range thing as some allow golf cart-type buggies (most do around here) and some don't.
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The idea is pretty neat and creative, but where are you going to put all the stuff that needs to be carried. The other thing I would ask is how many of these were produced? I would have to go back to one of the items we added to the by-laws years ago "In common use".
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As long as it is pre-1900 it should be NCOWS legal. You may have to do some convincing that your contraption looks just like a pre-1900 contraption. I think it is a great idea for a motor head with a spare lawnmower engine.
Books
PS - Some individual ranges have "gun cart" restrictions.
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One other point so far not made on gun carts (although the one stated about how few one actually sees an an NCOWS event) is that you can’t take them to the firing line. Generally, park them about 15 to 20 feet back. Especially at regional and national shoots. On the occasions I used 4 guns in a match, I still had no cart. Two holsters hold the revolvers. Saddle bags hold all my ammunition (or cap and ball requirements). Saddle bag goes on my shoulder, rifle and shot gun in my two hands. When I quit SASS, I quit carts.
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I am a new member of NCOWS and am going to try to get a posse going in western NY. I have been involved with SASS/CAS for around 20 years. My question on gun carts is if they are left behind the line of sight of the people participating in the match what difference does it make what you use to haul your stuff around in? At 3 of the ranges we shoot at in my area when you look behind you, you are looking at the parking lot. So does it make a big difference on the experience if there are Rugged gear gun carts in you line of sight between you and the cars and trucks? The one thing I think would stop me from forming a posse her is with the age of the participants not being able to use carts we already own with our degreased physical abilities.
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I am a new member of NCOWS and am going to try to get a posse going in western NY. I have been involved with SASS/CAS for around 20 years. My question on gun carts is if they are left behind the line of sight of the people participating in the match what difference does it make what you use to haul your stuff around in? At 3 of the ranges we shoot at in my area when you look behind you, you are looking at the parking lot. So does it make a big difference on the experience if there are Rugged gear gun carts in you line of sight between you and the cars and trucks? The one thing I think would stop me from forming a posse her is with the age of the participants not being able to use carts we already own with our degreased physical abilities.
There is a really simple answer here. What individual clubs allow for gun carts at their club matches is really of no concern to me as National Judge. First, I cannot police every match for every posse. But it is understood that, per the By Laws of NCOWS, all matches should follow all the NCOWS rules. Second, I realize that sometimes, exceptions need to be made and I am OK with that at the local level. Just not the Regional Match or National Match level.
I will also point out that at every Regional and every National event I have attended in my 20+ years, the venue has been set up to minimize the incursion of the 20th and 21st century advances in an attempt to create the illusion. Part of this is remote parking. But it cannot be totally eliminated. So, we do the best we can to stay appearing in the 19th century. Of course, the only gun carts in the 19th century were those wagons filled with crates of guns destined to transport for military or distributor receipt. Gun carts of the type being discussed never actually existed in the 19th anyway. They are an anachronism.
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There are two reasons I joined NCOWS...
1. Getting to shoot (working towards period correctness, but really to have fun shooting, whatever that looks like)
2. Hanging out with some fun (unique, quirky, eccentric, crusty
crotchety) individuals!! Who have similar hobbies, and desire to have safe fun. (I would say clean fun, but you black powder shooters mess that up!!! ;D)
What I didn't sign up for was the long list of does and don'ts...
Some have responsiblities to make sure we are doing this "right" (judges, Marshalls, and others included, thank you for all you do!) and some of you all do this RIGHT (original class folks, I tip my hat in your direction)!
Individual adaptation is a necessity... perhaps even the father of invention... if everyone did everything by the book every single time we would have never advanced out of the cap and ball era! Yes I'm sure I just heard some of you cheering! ;)
You need to do what you can to build this sport up rather than tear individuals down... someone just fronted $100 to build this forum up. (I'm not suggesting we move away from period correct, but come on... where is the spirit of the match?) If you can get a NY posse wrangled... or the inclusion of some good ole fokes...that is worth some flexibility on bylaws, for the betterment of us all!!
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I would like to try a ncows shoot just to see where they put the targets. We still place them at sass’s original recommendations. Sass and I guess wb shooters have gone blind and need their targets as close as possible. Just curious. Good luck on your possee snake oil.
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There are two reasons I joined NCOWS...
1. Getting to shoot (working towards period correctness, but really to have fun shooting, whatever that looks like)
2. Hanging out with some fun (unique, quirky, eccentric, crusty
crotchety) individuals!! Who have similar hobbies, and desire to have safe fun. (I would say clean fun, but you black powder shooters mess that up!!! ;D)
What I didn't sign up for was the long list of does and don'ts...
Some have responsiblities to make sure we are doing this "right" (judges, Marshalls, and others included, thank you for all you do!) and some of you all do this RIGHT (original class folks, I tip my hat in your direction)!
Individual adaptation is a necessity... perhaps even the father of invention... if everyone did everything by the book every single time we would have never advanced out of the cap and ball era! Yes I'm sure I just heard some of you cheering! ;)
You need to do what you can to build this sport up rather than tear individuals down... someone just fronted $100 to build this forum up. (I'm not suggesting we move away from period correct, but come on... where is the spirit of the match?) If you can get a NY posse wrangled... or the inclusion of some good ole fokes...that is worth some flexibility on bylaws, for the betterment of us all!!
Nowhere, did I see any reference "tearing individuals down...."
And least of all, NCOWS and the reply's seen here....
NCOW's is member run, and our unique approach is what appeals to the membership.
Flexibility on bylaws may be offered, and they are voted on, majority then rules, and the bylaws may or may not be amended.
For example: Working Cowboy is two-gun discipline, voted on years ago and passed.
It, in fact eliminates any need for the gun cart. Carry the Revolver in a Holster, Rifle in your hand and
a Haversack, saddle bag or tote.
If you wish, a 3 discipline and 4- gun are also offered as well.
That flexibility is not avowable in other Western Action Disciplines.
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I would like to try a ncows shoot just to see where they put the targets. We still place them at sass’s original recommendations. Sass and I guess wb shooters have gone blind and need their targets as close as possible. Just curious. Good luck on your possee snake oil.
Pistol targets are approximately 10 to 12 inches in diameter and are placed to maybe 15 yards out to maybe 25 yards. Rifle targets are maybe the same diameter up to approximately life sized and would be maybe 30 yards to 80 yards and maybe 100 yards. Targets for pocket pistol are within 10 yards.
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Pistol targets are approximately 10 to 12 inches in diameter and are placed to maybe 15 yards out to maybe 25 yards. Rifle targets are maybe the same diameter up to approximately life sized and would be maybe 30 yards to 80 yards and maybe 100 yards. Targets for pocket pistol are within 10 yards.
This, of course, varies posse to posse. Factors are what targets they happen to own, depth of their range, and berm height. I have never, in my travels to NCOWS events in other states, seen targets as described above. Yes, some challenge target might be small as stated, but it won’t be all of them. And I’ve never seen 80-100 yard rifle targets in a standard match - just long range side matches. And those lengthy shots were not at one foot diameter targets, but much larger.
Froogal, where are you shooting?
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This, of course, varies posse to posse. Factors are what targets they happen to own, depth of their range, and berm height. I have never, in my travels to NCOWS events in other states, seen targets as described above. Yes, some challenge target might be small as stated, but it won’t be all of them. And I’ve never seen 80-100 yard rifle targets in a standard match - just long range side matches. And those lengthy shots were not at one foot diameter targets, but much larger.
Froogal, where are you shooting?
I belong to the Border Regulators, and no, we don't always shoot the long range targets, but those are often included in a stage. Sometimes for bonus points, sometimes just as a part of that stage.
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I belong to the Border Regulators, and no, we don't always shoot the long range targets, but those are often included in a stage. Sometimes for bonus points, sometimes just as a part of that stage.
Gotcha. Yep, I have seen the long bonus targets, the “-5 seconds if you hit, doesn’t count as a miss” target. Since this is the open forum, where non-NCOWS folks can come poke around and see if they want to play, I wanted to make sure we weren’t scaring them off. As mentioned previously, the target size and distance varies from posse to posse as their resources vary.
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Twelve bore as Marshal of this group I would like to thank you for considering joining our group, and would love to see you get a posse going in your area. No one has mentioned rifle racks, I think all NCOWS ranges
have racks usually between every other stage. I usually shoot originals class (2gun), so I only have a rifle
and carpetbag to carry. But most NCOWS ranges have people using guncarts. I see no reason at all that if
start a posse that this would be an issue, I would be very disappointed if you chose not to join just for this reason. I'm sure I speak for all of us that we would very much welcome your new posse into our organization
It would be great to see you at the convention next March.
BTB
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Gotcha. Yep, I have seen the long bonus targets, the “-5 seconds if you hit, doesn’t count as a miss” target. Since this is the open forum, where non-NCOWS folks can come poke around and see if they want to play, I wanted to make sure we weren’t scaring them off. As mentioned previously, the target size and distance varies from posse to posse as their resources vary.
I've never visited anywhere else, but I feel that the Border Regulators range is kind of special, if it wasn't for that STEEP, LONG hill coming up from the stages. It gets steeper and longer each time I walk it. I've thought about a gun cart, but then I'd have to push it fully loaded up that hill which wouldn't be any easier than walking.
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I can attest to the Border Regulators long targets. A few years ago I shot at
Colfax on Saturday and shot clean. Then on Sunday I shot with the Regulators,
same guns, and my misses were in the teens, 13 or 15. Still fun the same for
everyone. I had never shot my old Winchester that far and that is not the place
to try figure out sight settings lol.
BTB
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Just getting interested in all this, and I’m lucky to have both a SASS and NCOWS posses within 15 miles of me. Going to check out both. From what I’ve read, I like a lot about both, and dislike some of both.
I guess I’ll show up and feel both out, and see which one I can live with the most. I was looking for info on gun carts, as the SASS range is pretty large, and needing to drag around 4 guns, all that ammo and shells, seems daunting, but I will see how it goes. If I end up liking NCOWS, I guess I can always hitch a wagon to Friday, my Donkey, or Alice my Mule and have one of them pull it around for me. Period correct, if I get a more traditional blanket for this stupid cold we’re having! Hell, I can bring my cast iron and use it as a combo gun cart/chuck wagon!
I do find the bickering about being period correct, or historical accuracy a bit humorous, when folks are showing up in a Prius, have never been within 10 feet of a horse, and certainly haven’t worked cows. The term all hat and no cattle seems to take on a whole new meaning! I think it’s kinda cute!
Now excuse me, I have to bundle up to go break ice in the troughs, feed the cattle, horses mule and donkey. I will try to find a suitable hat that won’t offend some folks sensibilities while I’m out ranching. Everyone wants to be a cowboy, until it’s time to do cowboy stuff!
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Iron City:
One of the by lines of NCOWS is "Not everyone in the Old West were Cowboys". We have room for Pinkerton Detectives, store keepers, the town butcher etc. That is what makes in fun and we have other folks like you who are real ranchers and cowboys. I hope you decide to become a member of NCOWS.
PS I didn't know it got cold enough in AL to have to break ice ;D ;D
T-Joe
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I am enjoying the remarks about gun carts. I am a NCOWS member but unfortunately don't live anywhere near a NCOWS event(certainly wish there was one). I have attended SASS matches for over 20 years and a lot of that time my wife joins me. Four long guns, four pistols and 250+ rounds is a lot to lug around. I am wondering how some NCOWS members handle that situation if you wish to avoid a cart.
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I shoot just one rifle and 2 handguns. Wife shoots just one rifle and one handgun. Handguns are carried in holsters on the cartridge belt, so that leaves just a rifle for each of us to carry, plus the range bag with the ammo in it which CAN be a bit heavy, but we manage. Our shooting range is at the bottom of a steep hill. No problem carrying the gear DOWN the hill, but after shooting all of the stages, packing everything back up the hill can be a bit of a challenge. Yes, a gun cart would be nice, but pushing a cart UP that hill wouldn't be easy either.
Several shooters in our group DO use a gun cart and nobody complains. Without the cart, those folks might just have to give up and not participate. We need everybody that wants to show up. If a gun cart makes it easier for you, then come on down.
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PS I didn't know it got cold enough in AL to have to break ice ;D ;D
T-Joe
It usually doesn’t!
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...Our shooting range is at the bottom of a steep hill. No problem carrying the gear DOWN the hill, but after shooting all of the stages, packing everything back up the hill can be a bit of a challenge. ...
At least the empty brass is a lot lighter going up the hill than when it had lead in it on the way down. :)
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At least the empty brass is a lot lighter going up the hill than when it had lead in it on the way down. :)
That's the perfect mantra for any shoot. "It only gets better as you go".
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A couple of gun carts that stand out in my mind: A lady who shot with us at the Nationals in Evansville carried her guns in a Victorian baby carriage. The other was a trunk mounted on a railroad baggage dolly all the gear was in the trunk. It belonged to Johnson Barr.
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My 'cart' is loosely based on a railroad platform dolly. Finished version is built to the need of transporting firearms, ammo and other firing line essentials. The plow handles are from Farmer Browns Plow Shop, the 14" steel rimmed wagon wheels are Amish built, the dome top trunk came from Hobby Lobby and holds all the necessaries including pistols and leather. The enamel signage is from any number of railroad memorabilia store fronts. Other than that it was just a matter of diddling all the parts into a usable transport. It's been a number of years now that I have shot in 4-gun categories; I prefer 2-gun Working Cowboy. More time to visit with my pards and less guns to clean.
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Your old one is the one I was talking about. The trunk was tall enough to carry your weapons concealed inside. I like this one as well.
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That is a beautiful gun cart, I dig it. But…..it’s certainly not period correct. Railway Express Agency wasn’t a thing in the 1800’s, wasn’t formed until almost 1920! Most wouldn’t know that though. I think it’s genius. Was wanting to build a REA cart for SASS, where a little 20 year off anachronism isn’t a huge deal, but your idea is even better than what I had in mind. We’ll done.
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Well gee, I already have some of those plow handles. I would want some wheels that are a wee bit wider though.
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The cart was built in my previous shooting days in SASS. Pretty much anything having to do with Rail Roading suited me just fine. These days shooting with NCOWS groups I'm a bit careful what I take to Matches. A smaller version of the 'dome-top' trunk carries all I need
for a day at the range for 2-gun categories.
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Mine is fairly similar to JB's
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img144/435/1000164cy2.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img144/6656/1000165mq5.jpg)
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....not sure there's anything historically correct about a guncart...my running buddy threw this together from scraps....it is nice to have cleaning supplys, tools and seats, if needed.....my old back sure doesn't object...we have made a couple modifications and I painted it with some OD paint I had left over from military projects.....