Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1886 => Topic started by: Jimeast on January 18, 2017, 04:47:47 PM
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Sorry if I'm in the wrong neighborhood :)
I recently found an 1886 Browning 45-70 in a local store and brought it home. It's the 26" octagonal barrel and was manufactured in 1986. I would like to find a place to ask some questions and get feedback from other owners of 1886 models. Does anyone know where I should look?
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I think you could go ahead and ask your questions here. I doubt that anyone will bite you.
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Thanks Buck, I wasn't sure... :)
Several things;
I reload for my handguns (this is my first rifle), and I have ordered the dies and components to reload. I plan on using a 405 grain lead round, with 38 grains of reloader7 that I found in one of my reloading manuals as a starting load. If someone has a better suggestion for the Rx7 powder, please let me know.
Second thing is the action is stiffer than I expected. A very friendly shooter let me try his 44 Mag Henry at the range the other night and the action was buttery smooth. I think mine will improve a little once it's used, but is going to needs some slicking up. Does anyone have any books or videos or web links to suggest on the 1886?
One post I found by "Tom Horn," suggested some tips to slick the action up and one step was to replace the extractor spring with lighter spring. Can anyone steer me in the right direction to finding one?
I'd like to wrap the lever in leather and get a sling for this model that does not require drilling holes. The only image I've found for this type of sling combines a butt protector with the attachment ring to the end of the sling. Has anyone set theirs up like this and have suggestions on brands to look at?
I'll probably have to use a peep sight, either a tang or receiver. Anyone's feedback that's went through this decision process of picking and installing a sight would be appreciated. My only current thought is to keep it in the period and not have to drill too many holes.
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I have burned a lot of Reloder 7 in my Miroku 1886, using 405 grain lead bullets (Lyman 457193). I have gone to the maximum listed in the manuals for that combination, but eventually backed off to 35 grains as my standard load. It is less painful and accomplishes all that I want. I have also used IMR 3031 and IMR 4198. With both of those I have approached maximum, but ultimately backed off quite a bit to match BP velocities. The gun can certainly handle the hotter loads, but I finally decided that there was no good reason for me to shoot them.
CC Griff
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I've got an early B '86 rifle that I love. It has taken two large moose for me. I shoot 350 and 420 gr cast bullets with 36 grs of Varget or 28 grs of 5744.
Most people make the mistake of turning a 45-70 into a sub-.458 Win mag and get turned off by the recoil. Yes, the Brownings and Marlins will take it, but you won't enjoy it. Ty loads recommended by Paul Matthews and see what I mean!
I've played with 520 gr Lyman 457125s in my '86 and it groups them very well.
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Try loads recommended by Paul Matthews and see what I mean!
This is one of the few guns that has literally brought tears to my eyes. Now I keep my 405-410 grain bullets in the 1450 fps range and I'm happy.
I've also done some shooting with a 500 grain bullet, but I prefer the 405 grain bullets as my standard load, saving the heavier bullets for my 1874 Sharps.
CC Griff
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There are a lot of moving parts in an '86, comparing it to a '73 or another lever gun is not really fair to the '86. I have an original '86 manufactured in 1891 and it is stiff. It has been completely disassembled and cleaned, but it is still somewhat stiff. Some of that has to do with the main spring.
wM1
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I think it has more to do with the dual locking lugs. Same for the '92.
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I am personally NOT the "Go To" guy on the 1886. There are however some applicable comparisons. The '86 is basically a great big 1892 on Steroids. Serious Steroids. Therefore, most of "tuning" tips that apply to the '92 are also true of the '86. I have worked on a few, and they can be made more user friendly in the same manner as the '92.
The gun is "over-sprung." The Main Spring (owners the hammer) is too heavy. The Lever Latch Spring is too heavy. The Ejector Spring is too heavy. The Extractor is too heavy. See a trend here?? You will need to find lighter after-market springs for everything, or, reduce/have reduced the springs that are in the gun. If your not conversant with spring grinding 101, you'll need help. You also DO NOT begin working on these parts until you have at least one set of replacements on hand. Perhaps ...... two. If your new to setting up a rifle, you WILL screw up. It's a given.
I would also suggest you contact Nate Kiowa Jones, aka: Steve Young at "stevesgunz.com. Steve is the "Go To" guy for the '92 and is probably quite conversant in the '86. Since retiring and giving up my FFL, I can't receive and ship cartridge guns.
Believe me, once you have reduced the listed springs to reasonable mortal levels, your '86 will be very user friendly. Unless of course, you load that sucker up heavy with BIG bullets. You do that and it will beat you like a Rented Mule.
Coffinmaker
PS: Forgot. The gun will also respond well to judicious Rubbing-n-Buffing to get rid of the rough spots and burrs.
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Thanks for the load recommendations. It looks like I can safely dial down a bit from the minimum loads I've seen listed as 38-40 grains. I It might be another week before I can shoot it, but I'm hopeful I can give it a go this weekend. My dies are in and ready to pick up. I'll load some cartridges this weekend in anticipation.
Regarding the stiffness in the action, I found a video, one of hickok45's where he talks about how smooth the action is. It's the same year manufacture as mine, but he's got a lot of rounds through it and maybe smoothed it up some. So, I'm hopeful that it will loosen up some.
Coffinmaker, I posted this just as your message was added. Thanks for the feedback!
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I think it has more to do with the dual locking lugs. Same for the '92.
I have several 92s both original and new, none of them are even in the neighborhood of being as stiff as my original 86. As CM said it is like a 92 on serious steroids. I have one 92 that will shoot 6 stages of full load BP and you can still run the lever with your pinkie finger. My 86 weighs close to twice what that 92 weighs.
wM1
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wM1, Thanks for the information. Sounds like you shoot some very fun rifles. I'm going to try and get 100 rounds or so through the 1886 and then assess my thoughts on the action. In looking at pictures of the main spring, it should be a reasonable effort to lighten a new one to try (or two :) if I use one a practice device)
I picked up the dies today. I'll load some cartridges and give it a go, but might not get to shoot until next week. If my ballistic hammer is deep enough, I'll load some dummy rounds, just to cycle the action a bit this weekend.
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Ive had a couple of them, the 1886 is my all time favorite rifle.
There is no extractor spring, the extractor is the spring.
I personally have never felt any desire at all the reduce any springs in mine. They function fine, and will loosen up some with use. One thing right off, oil it. Then sit and cycle the action (not dry firing, just cycling it). It will wear in some, or if you want it smoother right off, after working it a bit, take it apart and carefully stone the parts that the blue has worn some on, on the bolt, tip of the lever, and inside the frame rails.
The first one was a rifle. After shooting some heavy 500 gr loads (1750 fps) I decided enough was enough and had the crescent cut off the stock. Ive never cared for crescents much anyway, and this was a huge improvement in overall handling. They wont explode if you drill holes in them. after the first time I dropped mine in rocks, I drilled it for sling studs, (stock and fore end cap, like the old ones were done) and I didn't hesitate at all to drill it for a receiver sight. Tang sights aren't on my happy list either, they seem to be more irritating than anything, my thumb wants the same real estate. Why stop there,...I also cut the barrel to 22" and its nearly a perfect rifle, adding a true shotgun butt will complete it.
I did mostly the same things to a carbine, except for the butt, I can be happy with a carbine butt. with a 20" barrel they are about perfect as a mountain carry gun in grizzly country, which starts not far from my door.
If you drill the receiver yourself, turn the tap back every quarter to third of a turn, the receivers are quite hard compared to the originals, I broke a tap in one of mine trying to go bit farther than I should have before turning the tap back to break the chip.
The 86s look great with a Lyman 56 receiver sight. Not quite way back period correct (think they came out in the 20s?), but a very good and classy looking sight, much more so than anything I recall seeing made currently other than the Lyman 21 type.
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My Browning '86 came to me drilled and tapped for a Mickey Mouse tang sight. That lasted as long as it took me to remove it and I sold the sight to someone I didn't like.
It shoots as well as I can hold off hand out to 200m with the factory sight. My favourite repeating 45-70; the ONLY repeating 45-70 I need or want.
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Well, I have zero experience with the modern-made '86's, but so far as I am concerned the originals and their successor, the M71, are the slickest lever actions ever made! The M71 is not quite as slick due to the fact that they changed the locking lugs and receiver surfaces to a slight angle, so the lugs wedge the lockup slightly. That was to ensure the backthrust of the .348 WCF was handled just a tad better. The original '86 breechblocks had the ejector forming the lower half of the firing pin ring. The problem with that was that IF the ejector broke off, and you didn't notice it, the next round left the primer unsupported. The design of the breechblock, however, channeled any gas leakage up and back, away from your eyes. You only got a sprinkling on your forehead! ::) Years ago, I was shooting quite heavy loads of smokeless, kicking a 405 gr jacketed out a 1750 ft/sec. Even with a recoil pad, the kick was stout! I had M71 breechblock and locking lugs fitted to that rifle, and also to another chambered for .33 WCF. The M71 blocks have a smaller firing pin channel, and the firing pin is completely surrounded by metal. The ejector is smaller, though just as effective.
As to loads, unless you are after Tyranosaurs, definitely back off. The rifle will take the heavier loads, but you won't very much. (As far as strength is concerned, gunsmiths up in Alaska were chambering '71's in .450 Alaskan and .50 Alaskan for use on large "wooly-boogers" up there since the 1950's.
I haven't tried Varget, but the listed loads and the bulk density of the powder would seem to make it ideal for .45-70.
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I was able to shoot 12 rounds last night at an inside range offhand at 40 ft. First round in the 10 ring, next a little outside the black. next 5 in a one inch group. next five a little worse, but in a 2" group. It was a lot of fun, and a couple of the employees at the range joined me and took the few shots so I could see how the spent bullets eject. It's nice to know it's more accurate out of the box than I am. The guys were tickled pink to shoot a "New/old" 45-70 and gave it a big once over on the counter to see if they could figure out if it had ever been shot before, the resulting opinion was "no," which made it more fun to light up for the first time. Hopefully I'll join an outdoor range soon and get a chance to learn to shoot offhand at more realistic rifle distances.
The crescent butt stock did not bother me when I was shooting and my shoulder felt fine today, but I did find a pretty serious bruise right above my bicep... Might need a butt cover.
I ended up loading 36 grains of Reloader 7, on the 405 grain bullet and I'll probably stick with that for a while at least. I picked up some Laser Cast bullets from Cabelas that wanted to seat at about 2.53 vs the standard 2.55 due to the location of the crimp groove. I'll probably get Missouri Bullets for the next batch, they have been a great supplier for 45 colts and 45 acp lead. Bullets cycled very nice through the rifle with no hiccups, just a little stiff as mentioned above.
Over the year I'll try and get a sling and a but cover as well as look into the Lyman receiver sight mentioned above.
Also, I think once the action gets broken in, I'll get few mainsprings and try to lighten one and smooth the action pieces. The cartridges tend to eject with a good bit of force, and fly well over my head and about 8 ft or so to the rear. Ideally that can be reduced a bit.
Thanks for all the advice! I'll provide an update when I tackle the spring lightening and action smoothing.
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Very nice. I'm glad you're enjoying your rifle. It is certainly one of my favorites, although mine hasn't been out in a while. Hmmm, the weather's clearing off here. Maybe I should take mine out for a bit...
CC Griff
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The only people who don't like '86s are those that don't own one.
"Gabriel Law" recently bought a Ped 71/86 and that is one very sweet, smooth action rifle.
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Depends on what you want to do with it. I shoot mine in our local cowboy matches with a case full of Trail Boss and a 405 grain bullet. They all seem to be sort of "stiff". I would guess that's mostly a product of the design for strength. Great rifles!
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One thing about the '86 being "stiff"... the action is designed to work fast! Same with the '92. Work them slowly and there are several points where the action will feel like it has a hitch in its gitalong! You can possibly smooth things up a bit by polishing the top front corners of the locking lugs and the bottom front corners of the breechblock, but don't overdo it!
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Mine's been used enough to smooth it out. I've gotten to handle a decent amount of these things, and I've never seen one you could call "loose". I think it's a great design.
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One thing about the '86 being "stiff"... the action is designed to work fast! Same with the '92. Work them slowly and there are several points where the action will feel like it has a hitch in its gitalong! You can possibly smooth things up a bit by polishing the top front corners of the locking lugs and the bottom front corners of the breechblock, but don't overdo it!
Hi
Plus one on what Trailrider said. It also helped my new Chaippa 1886 quite a bit when I put some Hoppe's gun oil on the locking lugs. It's tight, and its definitely NOT delicate. Unlike my 1874 Sharps from Chiappa, my trigger pull on the 1886 is about 5 pounds, and is really a decent trigger. I commonly shoot 2 pound smallbore bullseye triggers and 4 pound .45ACP bullseye triggers, so I'm at least a little picky on triggers.
I have a Marble Improved peep sight to put on mine, but haven't done so yet. I'll post pictures when I get a chance. The Lyman peep sights aren't something I'm comfortable carrying around, they're pretty delicate looking.
Later
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One thing about the '86 being "stiff"... the action is designed to work fast! Same with the '92. Work them slowly and there are several points where the action will feel like it has a hitch in its gitalong! You can possibly smooth things up a bit by polishing the top front corners of the locking lugs and the bottom front corners of the breechblock, but don't overdo it!
Right on! Work these things like you mean it. and remember, you couldn't hurt them from normal use if you tried. John Browning designed guns to work all the time, every time.
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I have burned a lot of Reloder 7 in my Miroku 1886, using 405 grain lead bullets (Lyman 457193). I have gone to the maximum listed in the manuals for that combination, but eventually backed off to 35 grains as my standard load. It is less painful and accomplishes all that I want. I have also used IMR 3031 and IMR 4198. With both of those I have approached maximum, but ultimately backed off quite a bit to match BP velocities. The gun can certainly handle the hotter loads, but I finally decided that there was no good reason for me to shoot them.
CC Griff
Hi
I'm getting ready for the GAF match this June and I have a Chiappa 1886 with a 26 inch barrell, 405 grain Missouri bullet lead flat nosed bullets, and a few pounds of 3031. What is the minimum and maximum starting load for that combination?
Thanks
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Get yourself a couple reloading manuals and start test loads, see what works best in your rifle. Do NOT go into the RUGER ONLY section.
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Guess I should butt in here. Since 1968, when I got my first '86--a 45-90, I have stuck to one powder and charge also use it in my 40-82 and the two 45-70 Marlins that we have. It is 58 grains of 3031 under a 300 grain jacketed hollow point. I have "Made Meat" alot with that old 45-90 and my son got a moose and a bunch of deer with his 40-82. Both are great shooters but a weee bit stiff on recoil. However this is a hunting load for a "Hunting" rifle and not really a bench load. Just figgured that this is worth passing on of you are interested.
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Thanks
The problem I have is that I have to shoot lead for a match. I have 405 grain Missouri bullets, IMR 3031, Starline cases, and Winchester LR primers. The loads in the Lyman manual are for this bullet don't include 3031. The IMR website says 51 to 55 grains of 3031, which seems high to me for some reason. Minimum means lower and it may not leave the barrel right? I'm seriously considering starting out at 47 grains and moving up to 53 grains maximum. This is intended to be a target load, not hunting load.
Later
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Well I didn't know if what I said would help you especially if you have to use lead for those matches. I don't hunt anymore due to a couple of heart attacks but my son and grandson do. My oldest boy has his 40-82 up in Alaska with him and still uses it for hunting up there. Back in '83 my oldest boy got his first moose with his rifle and we were able to recover the bullet. I wrote an article about that trip. But--back to loads. I have never deviated from 3031 as it shoots clean and does the job but for what you want to use your rifle for, perhaps it would be best to stick to low recoil loads. I have pretty good luck with Swiss 1½ in my '76. Shoots clean and is not too bad on recoil. I guess that were I to say that one rifle that we do like the best is that old 45-90. It has been around since 1890 or so and is planning on being around for a lot longer. Another '86 we have is a '33 Takedown. That belonged to an old Game Warden out of Anaconda, Montana before we got it. Haven't got anything with it--not that I haven't tried. It was sort of a bugger to work up good loads for it but got it done. The only thing about that rifle is that it is lighter than the old 45-90 and the recoil is pretty brutal.
I think that about all that has been accomplished in this chatter is just that chatter. Bu--you may get something out of all it.
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Do you have, or can you get Trail Boss? Thirteen grains under a 405 grain lead bullet works great for what we do. I've used that one for our local cowboy matches.
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I'm seriously considering starting out at 47 grains and moving up to 53 grains maximum.
I would not be afraid to use those parameters. I very much doubt that you'd get a bullet stuck in your barrel, although if your first shot has very little recoil, you might want to increase the load before continuing. Check your target and make sure that there is a hole there (and check your bore, of course), but I don't think that there will be a problem. I had to go back in my records to 2010 for the last time I used 3031. My starting load was 49.0 grains with a 405 grain jacketed bullet. I only loaded up a few rounds, working my way up to the maximum just for the experience of shooting full-power loads (it was rather unpleasant). As I recall, the 49 grain loads were plenty stiff, thus my belief that 47.0 grains should be OK for your lead bullets.
Of course the usual disclaimers are in effect here. This is only MY opinion and you don't even know me. There is no reason that you should trust my opinion. I could be a 10 year old kid sitting at a computer making this stuff up, for all you know.
Thanks.
CC Griff
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Hi again
I've decided to NOT work up a 405 grain lead load and just buy enough .45-70 Federal 405 grain lead loads for what I need to do. Two reasons, first of all, it will waste my time, I don't need but 80 rounds of the stuff, and if I buy Federal, I won't mix it up with my 405 grain reloads for my Cavalry Sharps (which might be bad).
I still have a bit of a concern. I plan on using 300 grain Jacketed Hollow Point bullet using IMR 3031 powder, Starline Cases, and Winchester Large Rifle Primers. The 50th Lyman Powder Manual minimum is 48.0 grains, maximum load is 52.0 grains. Note that the IMR website states that the loads for a 300 grain JHP are from 58.0 grains to 64.0 grains. That’s a 12.0 grain difference between Lyman and IMR. Is that something that somebody besides little me should be worried about? Yes, it IS in the Lever gun section of both the book and the website.
Later
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I think that about all that has been accomplished in this chatter is just that chatter. Bu--you may get something out of all it.
Larry, I'll be happy to read your chatter any day, sometimes it's like a history lesson, always a great read. I'd like to read more about your hunts with these fine old rifles.
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Well, as I said, I have used that 58 grain of 3031 for a lot of years and in all those calibers that I mentioned with no ill effects except for my shoulder now and then. They shoot clean and hit hard and really do the job great! Like I said, that .33 has been a bugger to work up loads for but, in my research, I did run across an article written back in the late 30's or early 40's about that rifle. I tried some of that data and it really works! So that problem got solved. That is a nice little rifle ( if you can call an '86 little!) It is super great to hand carry and since it don't have a long barrel, it is great in the woods and such. The one time that I took it after elk--I think that I can tell a tale here) my cousin and I went up the North Fork of the Flathead to see what we could see. Got into a batch of down Lodgepole and run across a couple of bulls. I got ready to shoot and then thought that it would have been a real mess to get that bull out were it had been shot. It was only about 20 yards away but in very heavy down timber so I decided not to shoot as we would have had to cut our way to it and then cut our way out with pack stock so we went back to camp and drank whiskey the rest of the day. I know, I suppose that I coulda shoulda but didn't and don't have any regrets either except my teeth itched something fierce the next morning!
That 45-90 is a really good hunting rifle. We went down to Ekalaka one fall to the wifes relatives who had a big ranch down there and I got a really nice big buck down there with that rifle and load I told you about. One thing about those old rifles, they do shoot really good and don't seem to whine about distances either. My oldest boy, with his 40-82 got quite a bit of shooting done with his rifle down there and got really good with it. I had been putting in for moose permits for several years and no luck but he did only once and got his and got his moose with that rifle. People can say what they want to about all these new-fangled magnum rifles but i plan to stick with our old-timers.
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I've shot a lot of 420 Lyman 457193 with 36 grs of Varget or 3031. Doesn't belt you and gets the job done. I've dropped two moose with my Browning '86 using the first load.
Try 28 grs of 5744 as well. All these loads would be very mild with 405 gr bullets.
Hi
I'm getting ready for the GAF match this June and I have a Chiappa 1886 with a 26 inch barrell, 405 grain Missouri bullet lead flat nosed bullets, and a few pounds of 3031. What is the minimum and maximum starting load for that combination?
Thanks
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Just a comment on the .33 WCF. This cartridge is nothing but the .45-70 case tapered and necked down to .338". It was never a black powder round, smokeless only. Back in the early '70's Hornady made a beautiful .338" 200 gr. jacketed FLAT softpoint bullet. Sadly, they discontinued the bullet awhile back, and flat pointed bullets are a must in the tubular magazine. (Before Hornady came out with their FSP, I did use some roundnose bullets, and didn't have a problem. I also took a file and flattened the lead nose of some, just to be on the safe side. As far as loads with the Hornady bullet, after much experimenting and when Herters was importing what they called Herters 100, which was made by Eley-Kynoch, and later marketed as "Scots 4351", which was probably around the burning rate somewhere between IMR 4320 and IMR4350. I used 51 gr. behind the Hornady JFP 200 gr., which gave an average MV of 2350 ft/sec and a maximum pressure of 43,500 psi as measured using the Oehler 43PBL strain gage system.
Recoil did not seem excessive, but I did have a solid rubber recoil pad installed on the stock. I took several European wild boar in Tennessee in 1963, but using some Connecticut Cartridge Corp. bullets and 39 gr. IMR3031 @ 2200 ft./sec. CCC stopped producing ammo for the civilian market when 'Nam cranked up, and they turned to government contracts.
As far as accuracy was concerned, the Hornady bullets were the best, but the CCC slugs did okay. In one instance there was some overpenetration, as I shot clear through one hawg and wounded another hidden behind it, and had to put that one down as well. Range IIRC was about 25 yds.! :o
NOTE: I cannot be responsible for the use of the above data in anyone's rifle but my own, and maybe not even then! (Standard disclaimer.)
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Trailrider:
Just a ote or two. My .33 is a lightweight "Takedown" and it has a steel butt plate similiar to the later model 54, 70, 71 and whatnot. And--it does kick a might. After all it don't weigh more than about 7 or 8 pounds. But all in all, I sure wouldn't get rid of it. It is a handy little rifle and a whiz in the woods. I did luck out and got a whole gob of those Hornady bullets awhile back and then found that Buff Arms has them too so got a lgob from them also. what with 45-70 brass available and Jamison makes the brass too--I figgure I am in pretty good shape. Just like here a few years ago I was able to get 400 rounds of head-stamped 45-90 brass. Glad I did too. Same thing with that 40-82 of my kids. Got enough to last and that is head-stamped also. I guess folks can say what they want about the '86 but it is one dam fine firearm and one hell of alot better than these new-fangled super magnums you read about. Me? I got4-- 86's and don't plan on parting with any of them.
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Many years ago I reloaded for a couple of 45-70s, a Rolling Block and a Marlin 1895. I cast my own bullets using a Lyman mould that threw a 292 gr RNFP bullet. Both were a lot of fun to shoot and I managed to kill a whitetail with the Marlin. My big cowboy gun now is an 1876 RCMP Carbine in 45-60. I enjoy it alot also. Can't go wrong with any cartridge that starts with.45.
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That would be NWMP, not RCMP.
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Took my recently acquired 86 24 inch round barrel to the range yesterday tried 300 JHPs with max trapdoor safe load of varget from lyman man, -.5 grain, -1 grain -1.5 grain-2 grains and the 350 jrn at max trapdoor safe, .5, -1, and -1.5 (no more bullets to go to minus 2. Both seemed to group best at -1 grain and both the -.5 and max loads while shootable, the groups opened up and were a lot less fun. Sadly the labradar did not pick up the projos, got an email response from them this AM if velocity 1600 FPS or lower use pistol setting. Will test on next range trip if I get more projos by then, or just may shoot some cast
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Got to looking up some data I took from an original receiver '86 with a heavy (about 1" wall barrel) and M71 breechblock and locking lugs, back in 2000. Pressure-time data was obtained with an Oehler 43PBL rig with the strain gage mounted over the chamber.
43.0 gr ReloadeR #7 and a Remington JFSP 405 gr. bullet Barrel length 20". Average MV = 1667 with Max p = 31,200 psi, Av p = 29,700 psi. Not recommended for people with shoulder problems even with a recoil pad!
Remington factory .45-70-405gr JFSP loads. Powder chg.: 28.0 gr MV (20" bbl) = 1343 ft/sec Av. p = 18,000 psi Max p = 20,300 psi
395 gr #457124 cast from Lyman #2 equivalent: Powder: IMR4198 + 1/4 square single-ply toilet paper pressed lightly into case and allowed to compress by seating bullet. Av. MV = 1261 ft/sec Av. Max p = 14,900 psi, Max p = 15,700 psi
Similar load on a different day, Av. MV = 1322 ft/sec Av. Max p = 19.600 psi Max p = 20,800 psi Used TP filler for years with NO signs of barrel ringing.
33 WCF M1886/M71 breechblock & locking lugs. 24" barrel. Bullet: Hornady 200 gr. JRNFP Powder: Herters #100, mfg by Eley-Kynoch in the 1960's. Later briefly marketed as Scot Powder Co. #4351. Burning rate somewhere between IMR4320 and IMR4350, but with small grains. Powder used old methyl-centralite coating. Av MV =2355 ft/sec Av. Max p = 39,100 psi Max p = 41,500 psi
Never had a chance to take game with this bullet. Old CCC bullets did a job on European wild boar, however.
NOTE: The measurements taken with the Oehler 43PBL are not to be taken as absolutely correct, as no factory calibration loads were available for either rifle or cartridge. But the Remington .45-70 factory loads could be taken as a good indication of the accuracy of measurements. Pressure-time curves were smooth in all instances.
Stay well and safe, Pards