Ordnance Officer Impression

[Raven]

Hey Guys,

I am interested in an Ordnance Officer impression of the CW to 1872 time period. I was hoping that someone would have some advice and answers to some questions that I have.
I am a gunsmith by trade who specializes in conversion revolvers and reproducing experimental firearms of the 1850-1872 time period and thought that an ordnance officer would fit my trade. Also I was a Munitions Maintenance Technition when I was in the service.
My questions are.

1. Did many Ordnance Officers serve time in the field?
2. Was there an actual Ordnance shoulder board or were the Staff boards the standard? I know the regs specify the Staff boards.
3. For an officer in the field would the shell jacket be proper?
4. I understand that the correct sword would have been the 1850 sword, what would be the correct sword plate the Eagle plate or an Ordnance Piss Pot plate?

I'm sure I will have more questions in the future
Many thanks for any advice that you can provide.

Jay Strite
Ravens Roost Gunsmithing / Kirst & Strite Company
Veteran USAF

[Texas Lawdog]

I bet that Drydock can help you on your questions about the Ordnance impression. He is our GAF Ordnance Officer.

[Drydock]

I'm afraid my best area of knowledge is the SAW period.  My knowledge of Pre 1872 officer uniforms is limited I'm afraid.  I do believe though that ordnance is considered a staff position, and the uniform should conform to staff regulations.  The Shell jacket would NOT be worn by an officer, the regulation should require a frock coat with staff shoulderboards.  The post 1872 "russian knot" style board worn on full dress uniforms did have "O. D." on them, on the black staff backround in liu of a regimental number.  There are others here who would know better, and I hope they reply here.

I'd talk to these folks   www.quartermastershop.com

[Advertising]

[Captain Lee Bishop]

I did a Ord LT impression for a while when I was doing that same thing in real life. My impression wasn't 100% correct, I found out after more research. This photo was taken at Devil's Den at Gettysburg in 1998:

Should have been wearing dark blue trousers, and staff boards were most common, although there WERE Ordnance colored boards back then so I know they were worn. ORD officers had the own branch buttons as well, and they're pretty easy to get as repros today, as is the kepi insignia.
As for how many of them, well, ORD is pne the largest Army branches today, but it was one of the smallest back then. You wouldn't have found many at all in the field.

[St. George]

An Ordnance Officer during the time fram e was a Staff officer, pure and simple.

He was an older man, as well, and his duty station was at Departmental or Headquarters level and they seldom strayed far from the comforts of a large Post.

As such, he didn't go into 'the field' - his 'field' was behind an administrator's desk, and not at a bench at an Arsenal.

His uniform would then be the typical Staff Officer's uniform of the era - with allowances for older insigna/styles to be worn - because the Army didn't 'demand' an instantaneous uniform change when new Regulations came about - they authorized a generous 'wear-out' period.

The available-for-research Civil War Regulations will give the style - and since the period you're going for is 1872 - the Civil War Regulations will be just fine.

Look at Lord's 'Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia' for photographic reference - your Public Library should have a copy.

If not - get one on an Inter-Library Loan.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Raven]

Thanks for the reply Capt Bishop and St. George.

I assume that the field possition was the Ordnance Sgt.
Would the proper uniform for an Ordnance sgt be the uniform of the unit he was assigned?
The reason I ask, I have seen a photo with both an inlisted man and a Captain in Cavalry uniforms listed as an Ordnance Sgt and an Ordnance Officer. I could not see the Officers insignia but the Sgt was definately wearing Ordnace Sgt stripes.

I would guess that an Ordnance Sgt served under the Officers of the unit he was assigned to and not an Ordnance Officer?

Thanks
Jay

[Trailrider]

As I'm not a real ordnance officer, but only portray one at shoots, banquets, etc.  , I'll add these comments:

I agree with the staff officer dress for most ordnance officers, i.e., dark blue trowsers (sp sic), staff officer shoulder boards (black background), OR with a crimson (dark red) background (hard to distinguish from artillery boards...I darkened some with a marker obtained from a fabric store).

Now, as to whether there were ordnance officers in the field, they did occasionally make inspections of troops' arms and accoutrements in the field.  For example, Capt. O. Michaelis and a lieutenant were with the Big Horn & Yellowstone Expedition of 1876 (Gen. Crook's column).  One account has it that they were upset about the troops discarding their M1874 Dyer pouches in favor of the locally fabricated prairie cartridge belts.  Finally they found a sergeant who was wearing a Dyer pouch. Thinking they had come upon a well-turned-out soldier, they asked him to open the pouch.  When the hapless trooper did so, instead of ammo the pouch contained...a sandwich!    Sometime shortly thereafter, the Ordnance Dept. began issuing the canvas prairie belts in greater quantities.

[St. George]

As to Ordnance Sergeants - again, a senior man - located at Headquarters and Departmental levels.

You're thinking of today's military - where every Company has an Armorer.

Don't.

It wasn't like that - so think today's  'Depot-Level' and think very senior 'Warrant Officer' and you begin to get the idea.

The Army of the era was 'small' - and purposely so - it wasn't the vast sea of faces and specialties you see today, and promotion took 'forever' - most notably in the Commissioned ranks, where pretty much every Officer was known to everyone else - along with his date of rank and possiblility of promotion, and there was competition for advancement.

There's a much longer thread in this forum on just this topic - take a look through the 'back pages' and you should be able to find it fairly easily.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!





 

[Raven]

Hi St. george,

I am confused the folowing order would lead me to belive there were a fair number of Ordnance Sgt's in the field.

Issuance of General Orders, No. 24., War Department, dated April 16, 1862: "V. Every commanding officer of a regiment will select from the non-commissioned officers of the regiment the one best qualified for the duty of ordnance sergeant, and will appoint him acting ordnance sergeant. Such non-commissioned officer will have charge of all the surplus ordnance stores of the regiment, and will make returns of the same to the Ordnance Bureau. The arms and accouterments of the sick and disabled of the regiment will be turned over to and be accounted for by him. He will exercise supervision over the arms and ammunition in the hands of the men, and report any waste or damage to the division ordnance officer through the colonel of the regiment. All such appointments will be reported through the general headquarters to the Chief of the Ordnance Bureau." In other words, ordnance sergeants from that point on appeared on the staffs of Union infantry regiments and not just at posts. Further explanation came with the publication of the War Department's General Orders No. 46, dated July 1, 1862: "3. Ordnance-sergeants of regiments will be subject to and make reports to the brigade ordnance officers. "4. Since the act of April 19, 1862, providing an ordnance-sergeant to each regiment, the acting appointees, authorized under General Orders, No. 24, current series, and made by colonels of regiments, will be reported for appointment under the above act in cases where such report has not been made to the Ordnance Bureau. Hereafter the appointment will be made to regiments as to military posts, by the Secretary of War, and upon the recommendation of colonels of regiments, through the Ordnance Bureau, the non-commissioned officers recommended being at once placed upon duty in anticipation of the appointment."

Being an Air Force vet I may not understand the make up of the Army, but wouldn't the Ordnance Sgt be required to travel with the regiment when it moved?

Regards
Jay Strite

[Raven]

I recently aquired this information from Bill Skillman a historian and reenactor of the USSS

"Each of the Sharpshooter regiments had a NCO designated as armorer (Ordnance Sgt.) to make simple repairs to arms rendered disabled. I will have to go back to Caspar Trepp's records to find the name of the armorer mentioned in his Ordnance reports, but that would only cover the period of 1862-3. The materials available to the Ord. Sgt. were primarly parts to repair NM1859 Sharps rifles (he also had on hand 6 rifles that could be issued to men whose rifles became disabled).

Any Sharps that required more extensive repairs, from what I can deduce, were packed up and returned to the Arsenal>Sharps Mfg. Co. A few arms, (one Sharps was run over by a wagon during the Bull Run campaign), were condemned and used for parts.

The Ordnance Sgt. had to account for all of the rifles, slings, brushes/cleaning rods, accoutrements, cartridges/caps/pellet primers and tools on a quarterly basis and forward his written report (later on there were printed forms that made his job easier) commanding officer. This information was added to the regimental Ordnance report completed by Trepp/Stoughton or their clerks. Copies were sent to Division and Corps Ordnance officers and the War Dept in Washington. Unfortunately, I only have a single report of this type filed by an USSS Ord. Sgt. "

"Ordnance Sargeants would have been attired the same as the rest of the regiment. Depending upon the time of service: Regulation/dress uniform of Rifle green coat/cap/trouser. Field use would show them attired in (based upon division/regimental orders for 'lesser tenue') blue blouses/green or blue kersey trousers, caps/hats. They would have worn the Ord. Sgt. chevrons on both sleeves. "

Jay Strite

[Captain Lee Bishop]

Raven,
An Ordnance SGT wasn't exactly assigned to the Ordnance Department, not like the "branch" affiliation there is today. I was a position additional to the overall job the enlisted man held, like bugler or flag bearer. There were SGTS assigned to the Ordnance Dept, but not many.

he didn't go into 'the field' - his 'field' was behind an administrator's desk, and not at a bench at an Arsenal.
His uniform would then be the typical Staff Officer's uniform of the era - with allowances for older insigna/styles to be worn - because the Army didn't 'demand' an instantaneous uniform change when new Regulations came about - they authorized a generous 'wear-out' period.

I spent a lot of time at Aberdeen proving Grounds going through their data of CW era Ordnance officers. Generally, the above isn't wrong perse, but it's not also totally accurate. ORD officers did operate indepently assigned from the Department, and several went to the field commands to do "Fact finding" observations on things the department needed to do better and also to check out what foreign equipment that was turning up in the hands of CSA prisoners. But generally, they were staff guys and older ones...

[Raven]

Cpt Bishop,

I am looking to do a living history portrayal of Ordnance personel both Sgt and Officer as I believe this will give me a good opportunity to display the firearms I build.
A thorough reading of the Regs. gives some leeway in the wearing of the uniform depending on the duty being performed.

Trail Riders story of the inspection on the Big Horn and Yellowstone Expedition is a good example, I find it unlikely that Cpt O. Michaels was wearing the Dress uniform. Quite likely they were wearing mounted trousers and boots and possibly the sack coat.

My impression from my firearms research is that Ordnance Officers were deeply involved in the development, inspection and testing of smallarms both at the factories, arsenals and in the field.

Thanks for the tidbit about inspecting the gear of Confederate prisoners. I am in the process of building Historicaly Correct telescope mounts for the Enfield Whitworth rifle and it would not be out of the question for an Ordnance officer to be in possesion of a whitworth rifle.

The Ordnance Department had some very smart and inventive men in the service and it doesn't appear to me that they spent all their time behind a desk pushing paper. While on active duty General Dyer invented the Dyer Shell. In my experience very few inventers do all their inventing on paper, most spend many hours at the bench and in the field testing.
All organizations have a large number of personell assigned to take care of the office work, but there are allways a certain number of officers and men who have technical expertice and are employed in that regard.

This is the Officer I wish to portray and am looking for the evidence to support the empression.

Regards
Jay Strite

[Trailrider]

"I find it unlikely that Cpt O. Michaels was wearing the Dress uniform. Quite likely they were wearing mounted trousers and boots and possibly the sack coat."

If Michaelis was dressed anywhere near like what the rest of the officers and men were on the BH&Y Expedition, he could have been wearing anything, military, citizen (civilian), or a combination of clothing.  To quote Lt. John Bourke, Crook's aide, "We looked more like a band of brigands than a military organization."  (Also see "With Crook in the Black Hills", which has an amazing bunch of photos of Crook's officers. Don't know if Michaelis is pictured, or identified, as my book is buried behind a bunch of stuff, but...) 

[Raven]

Trail Rider,

I will have to inter library loan that book!

Thanks for the info.
Jay

[St. George]

A  complete new uniform was authorized with the publication of the 'Uniform Dress of the Army of the United States, 1851 - per General Order 31, 12 June 1851.

The specifications of new hats for officers also changed the design of the hat device described as a 'gold-embrodered shell and flame' placed on a Dark Blue background.

Enlisted men of the Ordnance Department also recieved a hat and collar device for the first time.

The 1851 design of the enlisted Ordnance shell and flame continued to be worn throughout the Civil War and did not change its appearance until 1872.

The Regulations of the Army of the United States, 1861, stated that an Ordnance Sergeant was to wear the uniform of the Ordnance Departmant, with the distinctive badges prescribed for the No-Commissioned Staff or Regiments of Artillery.

This means that they would've worn the  1858 model of the Artillery hat badge without Regimental or Company letter.

These Ordnance Sergeants were selected by recommendations by their Commanders in recognition of long and faithful service.

They were appointed by the Adjutant General and served as caretakers and guardians of Forts and other installations - maintaining accountability of all ammunition, weapons and other stores.

Not all Non-Commissioned Officers that had the title of 'Ordnance Sergeant' were in this same capacity.

The Ordnance Department still had a Sergeant of Ordnance in the enlisted ranks.

These Ordnance Sergeants were dropped from the rolls of the Regiment or company to which they belonged and served separately - reporting directly to Post Commanders.

If the Regiment left the Fort on a change-of-station, the Ordnance Sergeant remained behind as a caretaker.

From: LaFramboise - 'History of the Combat Support Branches'.

No matter what you might suppose, R&D was done at the Arsenals, by contract employees - and was reviewed and inspected by Ordnance inspectors and responsible Officers.

Unlike today - during the Civil War and post-war era, Uncle Sam didn't relish 'innovation' - because that cost 'money' in a time when none was forthcoming from an impecunious Congress.

Ordnance Boards routinely shot down inventor's ideas largely because of associated costs - taking into consideration the vast quantities of wartime stock still available in stores.

Being somewhat hide-bound, they felt that a multi-round capacity would encourage soldiers to waste ammunition by firing indiscriminately and kept the single-shot rifle until the adoption of the Krag.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Raven]

St. George,

I am not trying to argue the main duties of an Ordnance Officer.

I understand that an Ordnance Officer was not at the bench doing R&D.

Before Gen Dyer was promoted to head or the Ordnance Department he was in charge of the Springfield Armory and as such he would have had daily contact with the workers involved in R&D. I am sure he or his subordnants would have been involved in overseeing field trials and inspecting the work being done. Ordnance officers would have done ocasional inspections of equipment being evailuated in the field.

What I am trying to document is the uniform that an Officer might have worn when away from his desk and involved in that rare moment of field work.

There is a photo on old-picture.com/civil-war of a group of Cavalry Officers one of whom is identified as a Captain of the Ordnance Dept. He is dressed in a Cavalry uniform.

I fully intend to do a Staff Officers Dress uniform but would also like to document a field uniform for shooting events

Jay Strite

[Captain Lee Bishop]

Thanks for the tidbit about inspecting the gear of Confederate prisoners. I am in the process of building Historicaly Correct telescope mounts for the Enfield Whitworth rifle and it would not be out of the question for an Ordnance officer to be in possesion of a whitworth rifle.

I found that info out right before the Gettysburg event in 1998. I walked onto the field in the impression seen in the photo I posted and walked among the Arty crews on the "bad guy" side (lifelong CSA re-enactor, even went through ROTC at one of the few schools that fought in the Civil War, Florida State University and named after Robert E Lee). Anyway, one of the higher up people at the event sneered at me and my officer impression, wanted to know where my "unit" was. I told him I was sent up to examine any capture French or Brit weapons for my report, even had a sketchbook with Whitworth rifle drawings I'd made at the museum. His jaw dropped and said, "Man, now that is cool, never saw anyone do that as an impression before!"  and I was good after that, it seemed!

[St. George]

You're looking at the photo of Pleasanton' s Staff.

'Capt. Henry B. Hays, 6th U.S. Cav., Ordnance Officer' is the identified Officer, and he 'is' wearing a Cavalry jacket, but that's because he's a Cavalry Officer of the 6th, and is merely 'detailed' as an Ordnance Officer.

That was a very common practice that's still done today, but on a smaller scale - some years ago, I was an Infantry Officer - detailed Cavalry...

He's merely assigned the Staff duty and once he's completed it, he'd return to the 6th Cavalry, his parent Regiment.

An Officer would necessarily wear 'his' Regiment's uniform in the course of his duties - adjusted somewhat for comfort, if 'on campaign', as has been mentioned above - and the common sack coat was often used.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Raven, Howdy!

Just something to think about, in line with what St. George (a REAL expert) said.  This is ONLY an idea; I don't know for sure.


But ... after the (un)Civil War, don't forget that the Military was severely   restricted in size - I've read as few as 25,000 total, so what St.G. says makes lots of sense.  There simply wouldn't BE many Ord. Sgts or Officers.  IMHO


By the way, I understand you are trying to incorporate this with your real-life occupation/hobby.  I applaud you!  Do you have any photos of your work you could post?  I think I speak for MANY most nearly ALL here ... we'd LOVE to see some of your work!

[Raven]

My intrest is mainly Civil War and as a Veteran post Civil War, also highly interested in Scouts and Secret Service of the Civil War era.

Secret Service was rumoured to have conversion revolvers late in the Civil War.

We are getting ready to revamp the web page soon, But You guys can check it out at ravensroostcustom.com

Regards
Jay Strite