Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => BROW => Topic started by: ndnchf on September 15, 2020, 08:44:17 AM
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I just took the plunge and bought a rifle that could very likely have been used used by a buffalo hunter back in the day. Many years ago the barrel was bobbed to a more manageable length, a little under 24". I'm waiting for it to arrive, but the bore is described as quite good - mostly bright and shiny with strong rifling. It has the rather ambiguous, but according to Roy Marcot's book, "44S" barrel stamp indicating .44-77 (or .44-90 which early on was the same shell with bullet just seated further out to allow for more powder). Needless to say I'm excited about it and look forward to getting it to the range. If it could talk - the stores it could tell!
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That is SO COOL!
I might not be as excited as you are, but I'm definitely looking forward to hearing more about this gun. When you get it, please take time to bring us along with more pictures and reports of your experiences in getting it back in action. Most of us won't have a chance to own an historical piece like this, but we can enjoy it vicariously.
Congratulations!
CC Griff
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Great find!
I've got an Argentine model in .43 Spanish, the ballistic twin of the .44-77.
I has leading issues due to the 39" barrel, so I had it cut down to 30" and recut the stock to resemble the Trapdoor carbine.
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I am yellow/green with envy. Any No1 Sporting Rifle is a treasure to me and being in such a traditional caliber and in shootable condition makes it that much better. I would regret the barrel being cut...but I'd have bought it anyway.
Dave
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Thanks Guys.
Yeah, I'm pretty stoked about it. Its probably from the late 1870s with a 6XXX serial number range. Who knows why the barrel was cut back, damage? muzzle wear? , maybe just to make it easier to carry on horseback. Regardless, it was done and long time ago and its part of its history. On the plus side, the bobbed barrel made it less collectable and more affordable - cost was comparable to a modern Pedersoli roller. The loading components and equipment are not inexpensive, but I knew that going in and accept it. It is tapped for a tang sight and I tthink they are factory tapped by the location. But won't know until I get it in hand and measure the spacing and thread pitch, which should be 10-28. Here are a few more photos.
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ndnchf,
That barrel chop and crown look to be very well done. That eases the disappointment a bit. (smile)
Dave
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Yes, I agree. I'd love to have had a 30" barrel on it. But i'll be shooting no further than 200 yards. Its not for competition. Really its just the coolness factor of what it is. Bringing it back to life will be an honor and joy :)
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That is a Dandy , going to be fun watching you bring that one back to life . ,,,DT
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What markings are underneath the forend. That will give clues to its original configuration. Lucky you in that is a heavy weight barrel equal to the diameter of the action and will help dampen the recoil
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What markings are underneath the forend. That will give clues to its original configuration. Lucky you in that is a heavy weight barrel equal to the diameter of the action and will help dampen the recoil
I should be receiving it next week. That is one of the first things I'll look for. With the forend in place, only the "44S"caliber marking is visible.
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ndnchf, I had one similar to that back in the 90's, but mine was marked 44W on the bottom of the barrel. Sadly it had been rechambered/rebored for 45-70, but still wore the original barrel. My barrel was only 26" long if I remember right.
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ndnchf, I had one similar to that back in the 90's, but mine was marked 44W on the bottom of the barrel. Sadly it had been rechambered/rebored for 45-70, but still wore the original barrel. My barrel was only 26" long if I remember right.
Nice! According to Roy Marcot's book. 44W was .44-40 Winchester.
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Yeah, that's what we figured at the time. If it had not been messed with I would never have let it go. Replaced it with a pair of 1870 NY State 50-70s, used my '74 Sharps for long range anyways and my Conn Peabody for military matches, so it's not like I don't have enough 45-70s.
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My .44-77 sporting rifle arrived today. I'm very pleased with it. The bore is bright and shiney with only minor pitting. I doubt it has been apart for a good cleaning in 100 years. The action was full of crud. So I took it completely down for a gentle, but thorough cleaning, lubrication and inspection. Everything looks good, no big issues.
I slugged the bore. The grooves are .4495" at the muzzle, .4505" at the breech. Tomorrow I'll try to measure the lands.
I got 40 pieces of new 43 Spanish thick rim brass and sized one in a 43 Spanish sizer. Then expanded the neck to .446". It chambered nicely. I have 43 Mauser dies coming which should work fine.
I'd like to shoot paper patch bullets. I think they will shoot well in this bore. ;D
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I got the .44-77 all cleaned, oiled and back together. It was factory drilled and tapped for a tang sight. I happened to have a new Marbles sight on the shelf with Remington hole spacing, so I mounted it. Its not the same quality as vintage originals, but it will help my aging eyes.
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ndnchf,
What a fine old rifle. Looking forward to a report on how it shoots.
Dave
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Man, that is sweet! Congrats!
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I don't know how much experience with loading the .44-77, but our own Ranch13 has a good deal of experience. He's been answering my questions and giving me advice regarding that.
CC Griff
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Ive been doing a lot of research and read many of his helpful posts. This is my first .44-77, but Ive been loading PP and GG for my .40-70 sbn for many years. It is similar, but different. Each one is a new adventure!
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My guess is it will do great with a good compressed load , it would be interesting to know the velocity difference between the shorter barrel and say a 30 " . My guess it is not that much . Sight radius would be more noticeable than the velocity . The tang sight is a big plus in that regard . Awesome old piece Amigo .,,,DT
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Hindsight being 20-20, I should have done a chamber cast first. Had I done that I would have discovered there is a very thin and old case neck stuck in the chamber! It is thin enough that a resized case will slip inside it. I noticed that the shoulder of the chamber appeared to be kind of abrupt, and I wondered about it. My first trip to the range yesterday and a look at the fired case confirmed it. With a closer look at the chamber with a magnifier, I can barely discern the case neck.
I have the action stripped down, the bore plugged and the chamber soaking in Kroil for a couple days. After soaking a while, I'll try the oversized bronze bore brush trick. If that doesn't work, I'll make a Cerrosafe chamber cast around it and try to knock it out. If that doesn't work, I may try a slightly modified Springfield 45-70 broken shell extractor.
On the positive side, I only fired 4 rounds but they all hit the target at 50 yards ;D
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ndnchf,
I'm reminded of Robert Heinlein's TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch). Looking forward to following your journey as you get your 44-77 shooting properly.
Old guy in AZ rooting for you,
Dave
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Off topic, but Heinlein is still my favorite...............
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Theres always the spray inside with something very cold then the brush.
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I've tried the cold spray trick with an over sized bore brush - nope. Then I made two different cerrosafe chamber casts. Then knocked them out hoping they would pull the piece out - nope. I now have the bore plugged and the chamber filled with Bore Tech copper remover (ammonia free, and safe for barrel steel). Since brass is made of a copper/zinc alloy, I want to see if it will break down the copper component, and weaken the case neck's grip.
But honestly, I'm starting to wonder if it is a brass case neck. I cannot see a brass color to it, even on the edges. Maybe its just many years of age/tarnish. Or maybe its some type of steel sleeve, I'm just not sure. As a way to test this, I put a .45 ACP case in a small container and covered it with the copper remover. The liquid is starting to turn blue as expected from the copper dissolving. I'll gave the chamber another day or so to soak, then pour out the copper remover and see if it is turning blue. If it is, then I'll assume it is a brass case neck. If not, then it may be a piece of steel.??
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After 2 days of soaking the chamber with the copper remover, I poured it out and compared it to fresh solution on the left, and solution with a 45 ACP case on the right.
The chamber solution is a light green, while the 45 solution is a deep blue, clearly indicating copper is being dissolved. If it was a brass case neck stuck in the chamber, I expected it to be more blue. But I'm no chemist, so not sure what to make of the results. But I put fresh solution in the chamber again and will let it soak for a couple more days. Maybe its an old attemp at some kind of chamber repair. Very odd.
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I feel your pain, sure looks like chamber sleeve gone bad.
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I know it's not what you want to hear, but the upside of it is, if that barrel/chamber aren't salvageable, it would be an awesome rifle to rebarrel, with the obvious option you could make it whatever caliber you want. Hope it works out for you this way, though.
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Yes, I think bubba ran an end mill in there, then jammed a sleeve in there. Who knows why. But the bottom line is the chamber is toast. Since the barrel was cut back long ago, this might have been done at the same time. Since the barrel is butchered at both ends, a new barrel is probably my best path forward. It would be nice to have a full 30" barreled .44-77.
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Well, you can re-sleeve, rebore or rebarrel OR send it to C. Sharps and let them put you a new Green Mountain barrel on chambered in 44-70, 44-90 or 44-100. That way you have a semblance of historic authenticity and you have easy to find brass (45-70; 45-90, and 45 2.6) . I essentially had the same thing done to two sporters....one wound up 50-70 and the other 44-70. C. Sharps does a fine job too and the barrels have a 7 degree chamber leade.
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Well, you can re-sleeve, rebore or rebarrel OR send it to C. Sharps and let them put you a new Green Mountain barrel on chambered in 44-70, 44-90 or 44-100. That way you have a semblance of historic authenticity and you have easy to find brass (45-70; 45-90, and 45 2.6) . I essentially had the same thing done to two sporters....one wound up 50-70 and the other 44-70. C. Sharps does a fine job too and the barrels have a 7 degree chamber leade.
I've thought about that. I see they advertise Remington rolling block restoration work now. Another option is to send it to JES Reboring to rebore to .50-70. The barrel would need to be set back about 1/2". Its about 22.5" now, so a 22" barrel wouldn't be much different. That would salvage and keep the original barrel on it.
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ndnchf,
I liked the idea of your 44-77 but there's nothing wrong with a 50-70. That cartridge probably killed more buffalo than the 45-70 or the 44-77. There's a famous picture of Custer with his 50-70 RB (with a longer barrel) after a hunting trip in the Black Hills (I think). Anyway, it was a very popular cartridge in the early '70s.
Best of luck which ever way you go. Just keep us informed so we can live vicariously through your journey. (smile)
Dave
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A .50-70 Carbine is a fine thing indeed!
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A nice Remington R. B. restoration story, s://americanshootingjournal.com/remington-round-top-rolling-block-restored/?amp-wp-skip-redirect=1http
Mike
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I AM fond of the .50-70, I have three .50-70 rifles already. But the mystique of the .44-77 is alluring! Reboring to .50-70 would also require the forearm screw tenon dovetail to be moved. The distance may not be enough for a full new dovetail, it may overlap the existing one. So its another complication. It I made it a .50-90, the barrel would not need to be set back, but it would be a bruiser carbine!
Green Mountain has a #4 profile .44-77 barrel with 1-17 twist that would be perfect. This is a tempting way to go also. I could go 30 or 32" length. That would tame the .44-77 recoil nicely.
Decisions, Decisions....
Ira - I'd like to read that article, but the link you provided didn't work for me.
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Half octagon, half round barrels look really nice on Remingtons................just throwing it out there!
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Or you could have it full length sleeved and keep it a 44/77 with a bright new shiny bore and the the original outside.
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I'd go with a new barrel, and set the whole thing up just the way YOU want.
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ndnchf,
I have been following this post since you first posted. I was happy for you for such a great rifle find in a great caliber. I am sorry you are having to go through all this extra expense and effort. But if you have the time and means then I believe in keeping it as original as can be or back to its original 30" length. Leaving it in it original 44/77 caliber.
I always wanted a 44/77 caliber Remington Rolling Block.
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Yes, it is a bit disappointing. But I've been playing with old rifles for nearly 40 years and come to expect ups and downs with them. At this point, I'm looking forward not back. I've never had a .44-77, but find it very interesting from a historical perspective. The short barrel is not ideal for this big cartridge. The opportunity to restore it to a 30" or 32" barrel would allow it to reach its real potential. The Green Mountain barrel would be ideal. My aging eyes can still use a good vernier sight. But at some point a period telescopic sight may be the way to go. I wouldn't feel bad drilling and tapping a new barrel vs an original barrel. There are a lot of things to weigh in deciding which way to go :P
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I'll be receiving a Shiloh Sharps this week, that I ordered a couple of years ago. One thing I specified was that it be drilled for the MVA Winchester "B" scope mounts, because I'm not going to get younger. So the rifle can age right along with me. I'd say you've got the right idea.
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I'll be receiving a Shiloh Sharps this week, that I ordered a couple of years ago. One thing I specified was that it be drilled for the MVA Winchester "B" scope mounts, because I'm not going to get younger. So the rifle can age right along with me. I'd say you've got the right idea.
Old Sailors think alike!
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Indeed!
(That's an outfit! Would love to see that on the line at a Muster.)
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At the battle of Fort Fisher last January. A grand adventure :-)
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I thought I'd give an update. After much thought and research, I decided to have C. Sharps Arms rebarrel it with a new Green Mountain #4 profile, 32" long .44-77 barrel. I shipped it off yesterday.
I will of course keep the original barrel, perhaps for another project. Maybe use it on another action and have JES rebore it to .50-70. It would make a dandy, heavy barreled .50-70 carbine ;D
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Glad that's working out for you! I've always thought one of those in .50-70 would be really cool, but at this point, it will probably never happen.
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One gun is good, but two is always better.
(I do need an outfit to go with my retirement Cutlass)
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Love the Ft. Fisher pics!
Also interested in seeing the 44-77 once complete. I have an original Ballard No.5 Pacific in 44-77, great cartridge, though my favorite is the 50-70...
Big Goose
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I do like .50-70s too. I have a m1866 and a m1868 trapdoor, plus NY state roller. I'm really looking forward to getting this one back with the new barrel. I've got 80 rounds of .44-77 made with Jamison brass just waiting for it ;D
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C. Sharps called today - the .44-77 rebarrel job is complete. It will be on its way back tomorrow ;D ;D. Im stoked. Can't wait to see it!
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Its back! C. Sharps rebarreled it with a heavy 32" Green Mountain .44-77 barrel. From everything I see, they did a first class job. I'm very pleased with it ;D ;D ;D
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Very well done , that looks beautiful . Bet it shoot's good too .,,,DT
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Thanks for taking the time to keep us updated. Many of us don't get a chance to do this, so it's great to get the vicarious enjoyment!
Griff
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Thanks Griff. I've waited a long time for a rifle like this. Glad to share it with others. BTW, this shows the markings of the original barrel and the new one. They are similar, but not the same. Also I specified this caliber marking rather than the original 44S. This way there is no mistaking it for the original barrel.
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Sweet! Let us know how it shoots!
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ndnchf,
I'm more envious now than when you first posted about this rifle. (smiley face goes here)
Congratulations on a great rifle/project. Please report on how it shoots, reloading details, and of course more pictures.
Dave
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I stopped at the range on the way home from work to try it out. I shot 10 rounds at 50 yards to get the sights on target, then moved to 100. It was 34 degrees and breezy - my fingers felt like ice. While nothing to rave about, I'm pleased with it for a first outing. Besides one shot I pulled right, it did very well. This was with the RCBS 44-370 bullets and 75.5gr of Swiss 1.5. Now I have some brass for the PP bullets ;D
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Very nice outcome. It is a beautiful looking rifle and in that great caliber, too.
Enjoy.
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Thanks guys! I'm looking forward to loading traditional paper patch bullets. Ive had very good luck with them in my .40-70bn Shiloh Sharps.
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I'ld suggest you take a look at a bullet 1.1 inches long, .434 diameter, wrap it in a 3/4 inch wide patch cut from 8 lb paper. Set it on top of a fiber wad ,030 thick, powder charges starting at 75 grs. of what ever blackpowder dijour you have on hand. Let the target tell you what needs done next. Use a grease cookie under the bullet and a thin wad between the grease cookie and bullet base, if you just want to blow tube between shots.
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While waiting on PP bullets, I loaded some 360gr grease groove bullets over 85gr of Swiss 2F. Kind of an express load ;D
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I went to the range today. I had bought 80 rounds of PCI loaded .44-77 ammunition, primarily for the Jamison brass. They were loaded with the RCBS 44-370 bullets and a mild charge of smokeless. I needed to fireform them in preparation for paper patch bullets. But I was pleasantly surprised at how accurate the PCI ammunition was. I also made a short video firing 3 shots at the 100 yard gong. Great fun ;D
https://youtu.be/N-B26ZakHcs
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Excellent video! Thanks again for letting us join in!
Griff
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Its hard to think of anything cooler than a paper patched .44-77 ;D. In this case they are 391gr. bullets patched to bore diameter over 77.0 gr. of Swiss 1.5.
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I find the concept of paper patching interesting, but haven't had the nerve to delve into it. I don't have any personal experience and don't know anyone that has. One day I'll just have to get the supplies and try it and go through the learning curve.
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This is an excellent resource. It explains the process very well with great illustrations.
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Looking forward to seeing how those shoot for you.
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Me too! But the storm hitting the east coast is putting a damper on my planned range trip. It likely won't be until next week. But on the plus side, my BACO order with more PP bullets is scheduled to arrive today ;D
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Looks like it's going to be a while before we have any decent shooting weather in this part of the world. At least I can get caught up on the bullet casting a little, maybe
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Its cold, icy and miserable out. A good time to load more .44-77 ;D I now have 30 grease groove and 50 paper patch rounds ready to go. Just need some better weather to try them out.
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Do you have a substitute for the brass incase of unusable cases?
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I have 180 new Jamison .44-77 cases. More than I'll ever shoot in one session, so I'm good to go.
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Looking good Chief , did you work the trigger or was it good when you got it ? That old rifle found a good home .,,,,DT
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No. I took it completely apart, cleaned and oiled it. It has a surprisingly good trigger pull, far better than typical #1 military models. Ive made new trigger springs from a hacksaw blade for a couple of those. But for now, this one is fine. But, if I ever came across original single set trigger parts, well that would be a neat upgrade ;D
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In order to fine tune my .44-77 loading set up, I wanted an expander to open the cartridge case neck slightly to accept a .438" diameter paper patched bullet. So today I machined and hardened a 2- step expander plug that opens the case mouth to .4365" first, then as it goes in further the second step expands the mouth to .439". The .439" step only goes into the case about .050" to allow the paper patched bullet to start into the case. Then it is seated fully with a slight interference fit. These plugs go into Lee universal expander die. I also have a .445"/.447" plug for use with grease groove bullets. I've made 4 or 5 of these for various cartridges, they work very well.
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Just for kicks, you might want to make one that expands the case .001 or .002 over the diameter you want to accommodate any spring back that might happen when the expander comes out of the case.
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All this really makes me want to get back out on the range with the .50-70, but, alas, the weather . . .
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Just for kicks, you might want to make one that expands the case .001 or .002 over the diameter you want to accommodate any spring back that might happen when the expander comes out of the case.
Good point, I may. It all depends on the paper, bullet size and bore fit I settle on. Id prefer not to size them down far enough to need to be expanded. But this gives me the option. Its easy enough to make another if needed.
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Thanks ndnchf, I ordered a copy of the book. I've got a new C Sharps being delivered this week, so might be a good time to try this out.
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Today I played with a lube ribbon extruder. Just to try it, I loaded 10 rounds. 77gr of Goex Cartridge grade, .030" card wad, wax paper wad, .125" lube cookie, wax paper wad, then 370gr PP bullet. Curious to see if I'll get a lube star at the muzzle.
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Contact Mike Bassett of Crosno's Gun Service about installing an improved version of the factory set trigger. He's done all mine and it gives a lighter more reliable pull without all the creep. And you're right the sporting rifles have vastly superior trigger pulls to millitary rifles.
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Good to know, thanks Sam!
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Out to the range on this gloriously nice day. I tried several grease groove and paper patch loads. With the crummy Marbles tang sight and my aging eyes, it was a challenge. But this tapered PP bullet load showed the best potential. I'll be upgrading the tang sight soon!
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That group is looking pretty dang good.
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Thanks. The tapered bullet seemed to do the best. I need more warm weather now ;D
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I finally got a decent rear sight. It's a Lee Shaver Soule mid range, with Hadley eye cup. In the next month or so I expect to have cataract surgery. After that I'll be able to see what the old rifle can do :D
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ndnchf,
I've enjoyed following along on your 44-77 journey. I've always liked Rolling Blocks and have owned several.
Best of luck on the surgery. Hope you'll be able to see a gnat's whiskers at 100 yards. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
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ndnchf,
I've enjoyed following along on your 44-77 journey. I've always liked Rolling Blocks and have owned several.
Best of luck on the surgery. Hope you'll be able to see a gnat's whiskers at 100 yards. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
Thanks Dave, I appreciate it. It certainly has been a journey with some twists and turns. But I'm very pleased with the end result. It is frustrating not being able to see the target or sights clearly. But from what I've been told, cataract surgery will really help.
Steve
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A rainy day here, so I figured it was a good time to load some .44-77s. Not long ago I received the backordered .060" poly wads from BACO. So I loaded up 20 rounds with the 406gr bullets from an Accurate mold wrapped with Seth Cole 55W, loaded over 77.0gr of Swiss 1.5. I'm looking forward to trying them out :-)