Belgium made 1960's Colt

[rifle]

I heard someone named "Bootsie" can tell me something about the Belgium made Colt 1960 Centennial or any other Belgium made Colt cap&baller??  Can anyone give up some information on the Belgium Colt repos? I have a junk 1860 Army I'm rebuilding. Waiting for the machine man to get the new arbor turned out. That's where I will start. The gun will be a difficult one to reboiuld since it's been messed with over the last 47 years.       Thanks in advance Buds.

[Flint]

If you don't have it, get David Chicoine's book "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West".  There is a newer expanded edition, and a book on S&W Old West guns as well.  His books are well worth having, as there is a lot of good information, including dimensions for arbors, wedges, screws, fitting and tuning of  Colt types, S&W breaktops, etc., of both originals and clones.  He compares Uberti and Colt, S&W, etc part by part.

The other indispensable book (shop  manual) is by Jerry Kuhnhausen on the Colt Single Action, and if you shoot them, the Ruger Single Action as well.  He also covers old and new models and some clones. 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Howdy Rifle and pards and pardnerettes interested in the fascinating history of Belgium made Colt licensed 1860 Armies. I posted some comments recently in www.thefiringline.com. Go to Forum, check "Harley Noldan's Institute for Firearms Research". There is a thread titled "1960 New Model Army" Centennial Colt with my 2 contrbutions of background information regarding the very subject.
The Centaur-Colt Armies are are no replicas but were made under a Colt license. They restarted the old machines in Liege/Belgium around 1960, hence the name "1960 New Model Army" but seem to have disappeared during the late 1970s. Quality of the pistols made in the 1960s and early 1970s is comparable to real Colts, better than 2nd Gen. Colts. Below is a pic of the 2 Centaur-Armies I have.
Bootsie

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[Long Johns Wolf]

Rifle: you may also want to search Centaur in STORM.
There is also a pard by the name of afa Andreas Prinz with a wealth of knowkedge about these Belgium Armies.
Bootsie

[rifle]

Thank you for the info Bootsie and Flint. Much appreciated. You're  both a gentleman and a scholar.

[Dusty Morningwood]

So, which one is the gentleman and which one is the scholar? 

[Marshal Deadwood]

I got one'a dem Belgium Colt '60 armies,,,FINE GUN !

BOught i on Bootsies recommendations,,fine GUN ! did I mention it was a FINE GUN !

Marshal Deadwood

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I ended up the Belgian Colt that Rifle asked about(got it from himself). And I got the one on Auction arms too. I have a question for Bootsie or Andreas,
When did Centaur change the logo on the guns. I don't know about the one I bought from Rifle, but the one on Auction Arms didn't have the Centaur logo or it has it and another logo.  This logo looks lik a tree on it's side near one of the small crew heads(trigger Screw.maybe)

[Long Johns Wolf]

Howdy Halfway Creek Charlie: pic of left side of my blued/case hardened pistol S/N 40xx, with all the markings.
Bootsie

[Long Johns Wolf]

Halfway Creek Charlie: pic of left side of my stainless/fluted pistol S/N 123xx, will all the markings.
I have inspected some 20 Centaur/Colts only but did not find one without the Centaur logo.
How do your pistols's markings compare to the markings on my 2 pistols?
Same question to Andreas.
Bootsie

[Long Johns Wolf]

Halfway Creek Charlie: Welcome to the Centaure Club
Just found 2 old articles published in Deutsches Waffenjournal (German Gun Journal) 1971 and 1973 respectively. These articles in German language (sorry guys) deal with the history of the Centaure pistol, the manufacturer(s) Fabriques D'Armes Unies De Liege, and the differences in specs (or lack thereof), compared to original Colt Armies from the 1860s.
They write Centaure with an "e" at the end.
Regarding comparability the authors claim there are none incl. threads of the screws. Differences mentioned are, however, in the rifling (Centaure = shallow) and the twist (Centaure = right), and in manufacturing processes like making of the rifling ("butter rifling?": correct term?) and in the finish, i. e. modern cynanide based case hardening and blueing.
Both articles only mention the model with the rebated cylinder, made from carbon steel, three srew frame, but cut for shoulderstock, with the correct cut in the backstrap. There is no hind regarding the fully fluted cylinder models in stainless steel, as well as the 5" barreled version. At this stage I cannot say for sure that this indicates that latter models were made after 1973 only.
So far I found no reference to relate serials to time of production.
Another German source just confirmed the compatibility and comparable quality of the Centaures to original Colts, as well as their superiority in terms of quality, compared to contemporary, i. e. 1960s and 1970s, Italian clones. Major Centaure parts were made of forged steel. However, that same source states that Uberti made significant advancements in the quality department: current production Ubertis (my interpretation: after the Beretta merger, use of CNC machinery) are comparable in terms of quality to Centaures.
Bootsie

[W.T.]

Bootsie, thanks for another leap forward in Belgian Colt data.  That answers the question I had about the depth of rifling and twist on my example.

May I ask if the article mentioned an incompatability in nipple threads, as well as those for the frame screws?  One of six nipples on mine is frozen in place with rust.  I am following Rifle's advice to soak it in diesel fuel for a couple weaks before any more attempts to loosen it, and dread the thought of shearing it off, but that brings up the question of replacement nipples.  I don't have a thread checker, and wondered if anyone might already know the thread size.

Halfway Creek Charlie, Bootsie kindly cleared up misgivings I had about the origin of some parts because of the odd proof and inspection markings.  Mine turn out to be identical to his, and one also looks to me somewhat like a tree on its side.  I had also asked him earlier in a PM if there was any information corelating serial number to year of manufacture, and there is no solid data.  The number on mine is 2024; two others I know of are a bit higher.  Does anyone know for sure what year actual production of the Centennial (1860-1960) Belgian Colt began?  I recall seeing both 1959 and 1960.

To be sure, a fascinating corner of C&B pistols.  Thanks for shedding more light.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I haven't gotten them here yet, the markings I asked about are the ones near the bolt Screw and I see that your revolvers have the same markings...must be proofhouse markings.

I couldn't see  the centaur in the picture of the one I bought on Auction Arms Just the proof markings near the screw on the frame.
Thanks you cleared that right up. I should have them today or tomorrow. I can't wait to see them.

[Marshal Deadwood]

I have a rather pristine Belgium Colt '60Army.

I bought in on Bootsie's advice and haven't regretted it at all.  Holding my Uberti in one hand and the Belgium in the other,,,the Belgium has an obvious 'more Colt feel'. 'More',as in the original Colts iv had the chance to examine.

Bootsie,,,from what I gather you are saying,,that the Beligum is indeed a 'real' Colt,,,as real in  exact specs' to the original '60Armys ?  More Colt than say a second gen' Colt ?

The frame markings on mine are,,,'left side',,a 'Colt pony' forward on the frame, and rearward,,,the  'fallen tree' () mark near one of the screw heads ?  No right frame side markings at all. All of the serial numbers are 'under-neath' the revolver, and 'made in Beligum' on the bottom of the grip frame.

Btw,,,the Beligum shoots to POA slightly different than the Uberti...The Uberti placing the ball about 2" high at 20yards,,the Belgium placeing the ball about 1" low at 20 yards. That is not, to me, enough difference to be 'noteworthy' as both can be 'tweaked' to a rather dead center POA if I so wished.

The Beligum appears to have rather good 'black walnut'  grips, and of course you guys are familiar with the Uberti walnut and the reddish tint.

I am super pleased with my Beligum.

Thanks Bootsie,,,you DA' MAN !  (as the youngsters would say now-days )

Marshal Deadwood

[Long Johns Wolf]

2 corrections with regards to the 2 articles mentioned because the first set was bad quality fax copies, today I got good quality photocopies of the originals.
In the article from 1971 the author is refering to and showing pictures only of the Army with the rebated cylinder.
In the article from 1973 there are pics of Armies of rebated AND fully fluted cylinders. No reference to anything but carbon steel. In the text the author is refering to a high serial number of 51971!
The proper term for the Centaure rifling method is "button rifled".
W.T.: no specific mentioning of the specs of the nipples but a general statement "...even the thread of the screws is identical with the original". According to the 1971 article the new production was started 1960, hence "Centennial Model"
Marshal Deadwood: According to these 2 references parts will interchange with original Colts, i. e. 1st gen Armies. Centaures are Colt licensed pistols, not replicas. 2nd gen 1860 Armies did not exist in 1971 or 1973 but are available today for comparison. Most experts agree that 2nd gen Armies are of italian origin incl. metric threads. According to other German collectors I know and IMHO their quality (steel, surface hardness, surface finishing) does not stand up to Centaure. However, in all fairness and as mentioned somewhere else there was some pretty spotty qualtity control during the end of the Centaure Army production so please beware...
No frame markings on the right side of the frame and serials underneath the revolver plus "Made in Belgium" on the bottom of the grip frame, on the pistols I have seen, as MD pointed out.
I'd love to see one of you talented US cowboys or cowgirls doing a Richards conversion using a Centaure!
Bootsie

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

OH that is tooo tempting Bootsie.......with me being "Da  Conversion Man"....

Thanks for the updates. now if we could get AFA to post his knowledge too. it'make it complete.

We need to turn OCB loose with a couple. Hey Bill your ears burning?

I'll keep an eye out for the "Centennials" on the net.

Anyone know who got the last one on GB? it looked pretty nice too.

[Flint]

If the Belgian is an exact copy, then the nipple thread is .225-32.  That is not a standard thread size for anything, but last I knew Dixie Gun Works has a tap for that thread if you need to clean up your cylinder.  DGW also has replacement nipples, as nothing made in Italy is going to work.

When Uberti made the parts for the Colt 2nd generation, they changed from a previously metric thread to #12-28 (same as Ruger), as it is at least an SAE thread, rather than reproduce the original Colt, also probably to help reduce fraudulantly aged fakes..

[W.T.]

Why, thankee kindly, Flint; I still got great hopes for the one that's stuck and the attendant threads. 

The others were rusted over pretty good, but the holes cleaned up well with a .22 bronze bore brush & oil, spun slowly & carefully in an electric drill.  I hope to get away without having to chase threads.

The rust seemed 'new'; cylinder looked like it had been fired fairly recently and not properly cleaned, though the barrel had been cleaned form the muzzle - it was apparent that the pistol hadn't been broken down, since solidified grease/oil had pretty well glued the bbl/loading ram to the frame.

Keepin' the fingers crossed...

[Forty Rod]

In 1973 I bought a Colt 1860 repro from the PX at Parris Island.  It was marked Westerner Arms on top of the barrel and Made In Belgium on the bottom of the barrel and on the bottom of the grip (?).  It had proof marks on the left side of the frame below the cylinder.  I don't recall any other markings, not even the caliber.

It was a "civilian" model three screw without the stock cuts in the recoil shield, but did have a back strap cut for a stock.  Back strap and trigger guard were both plated silver-colored, probably nickel.

It was the best .44 Army I ever saw in terms of fit and finish, accuracy, and reiability.  Great color case hardening, but more muted than most.

It was stolen from me in 1994.  I'd buy another in a heart beat, probably several more.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Why not getting a special interest sub-group started under STORM, call it like FROC: FINE REVOLVERS OF CENTAURE, to collect hard facts and exchange experience related to these Belgium made Colts?!
Bootsie