Hot loads in Cattleman

[Davem]

Just wondering. Off the shelf 45 Colt ammunition is generally loaded to be safe in older SAA's but on some of the new clones such as Uberti, it is possible to slightly increase the powder charge and still be safe and if so, how much of a bump?

[Major 2]

I suggest you read the LOADING DATA Books  , stay with in the SAMMI  max pressure recommendation...

SAAMI has to be sure that ammo is safe in any gun !

DO not follow someone's internet idea what's safe , something someone on the internet say's is safe  ....

Your hands , Eyes or life , or those around you are not worth some unknown yahoo's opinion of what might be safe .

Does not Matter if it's Uberti, Ruger NMV , Pietta  COLT or USFA,   all can grenade "if your load excesses Max pressures ...  maybe not the first round or two ,  but  sure as  TAXES and father time marches on it will !

[Good Troy]

In support of Major 2's comments...testimony from One-eyed Ezra, Lefty Louie, and the widow of Wreckless Rob- reloading information published by powder manufactors, and limits placed by the firearms makers should NOT be exceeded.

[Advertising]

[Mean Bob Mean]

Just wondering. Off the shelf 45 Colt ammunition is generally loaded to be safe in older SAA's but on some of the new clones such as Uberti, it is possible to slightly increase the powder charge and still be safe and if so, how much of a bump?

Shoot it for what it is, and that is an old timer out of the box.  If you absolutely must hot rod some .45 loads I suggest buying a Ruger Blackhawk.  I seem to recall one of the high performance ammo makers having a standard pressure higher velocity load.  Read the advertised load/pressure data though before loading anything in an SAA design.  

I looked and it is Buffalo Bore ammo which advertises a "standard pressure heavy loading".  They get 1000 with a 255 grain load.  

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=7

They state that you can fire these in any post war firearm in good condition that is chambered for .45 Colt. 

[Navy Six]

I wouldn't do it. Sooner or later a steady diet of hotter 45 Colt rounds will take its toll. A friend insisted on cramming close to 40 grs. of blackpowder under a 250 gr lead bullet in his 45 Colt Uberti Cattleman. Used this load for years at Cowboy matches. The result? The frame started to split right through the firing pin hole.
 The Cattleman is a nice gun when used as intended. If you want to get adventurous loading the 45 Colt, I would follow the above advice and get a Ruger Blackhawk or something similar.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

here we go again if you want a magnum revolve,r the 1973 model revolver is NOT the way to go. The best "magnum" load for the old Peacemaker would be a case charged with 30 grains of  gunpowder (the real black  stuff) and a 230 grain lead bullet. It was magnum then and magnum enough now.
i started a discussion about this subject some time ago and i personally have not changed my mind. Nor had the desigb or metallurgy of the single action changed either. yes the Ruger is somewhat more robust but who in their right mind wants to hold a hand grenade at arms length and pull the trigger?
Bunk

[Major 2]

The issue here is, where the larger Ruger Black hawk & Black hawk based Old model Vaquero could take stout loads
due to it increased size & cylinder wall thickness....

DO NOT assume the NEW Model Vaquero can take the pressures of Hot loaded 45's .

Read  DON'T DO IT !   the NMV was scaled down to more like SAA dimensions , it is not rated the same as the OMV.

Equally do not assume you can't blow-up a Black hawk

[will52100]

Thing about it is you could probably get away with "SLIGHTLY" hotter rounds, at least for a while.  How much hotter?  Don't know, have no intention of exceeding max loads whatsoever!  But lets say you loaded just a bit on the hot side and test fired one.  Gun didn't blow up, test fired two, ect. ect. till you were confident you wouldn't blow the gun up.  A few hundred rounds later the headspace is loose, the hammer won't set the rounds off reliably and the gun rattles when you shake it.  Even close to max loads can do this.  Keep your loads down to black powder levels or a little under and the gun should last near forever and stop anything the "SLIGHTLY" above max load would stop, and the max load would stop.  Without blowing the gun up or wearing it out in short order.

[Mean Bob Mean]

Equally do not assume you can't blow-up a Black hawk

How in god's name did that happen?

[Major 2]

Hot rodded or more likely double load

[Long Johns Wolf]

I "killed" a Uberti SAA Buntline in .45 Colt a few years ago with a load developed originally as a long-range accuracy load for a 92 clone.
Calculated psi of this nitro load was 14,000 which is borderline.
After an uneventful firing of 27 rounds down the range with pleasing accuracy but notable recoil there was this big bang: bridge and upper half of the cylinder gone. Found the pieces some 25 yards to the right.
Thanks God nobody was hurt except my ego.
My recommendation with SAA originals and clones: play it safe, use loads on the light side.
Long Johns Wolf

[Trailrider]

How in god's name did that happen?

Most certainly if you overload something it will blow! However, I submit that the above blowup may have been caused by a different "mechanism"...a reduced load that caused "premature shot start" resulting in a slow or medium-burning pistol powder not being thoroughly ignited, followed by completed ignition with the bullet stuck in the forcing cone!     Okay, here's what can happen: A cartridge is loaded with what is normally thought of as a medium load of a medium-burning or slow-burning rate pistol powder. Insufficient crimp and neck tension is applied to the cartridge case. The primer ignites the powder, but also pushes the bullet out of the case, causing the pressure to drop below the stable-burning pressure (usually around 5000-7000 psi..not CUP). The bullet is propelled into the forcing cone and stops, blocking the barrel-cylinder gap. Pressure then builds up to the point where the still-smouldering rest of the powder starts burning, building up the pressure. This, in turn, increases the burning rate, etc.  But, it takes more force to start the bullet moving down the barrel from a standing start than if it jumped from the case. So the pressure builds up until it exceeds the strength of the cartridge case (around 35,000 psi). This is also not helped by the more generous dimensions of .45 LC chambers, but it will happen eventually (in milliseconds). When the case ruptures, hot gases act like a cutting torch on the steel walls of the chamber. Combined with the force exerted on the top of the firing chamber, transmitted to the rest of the cylinder, the top takes off, taking the top strap with it!     
Moral: check for double charges, but also be sure you have enough neck tension by the case on the bullet and CRIMP! CRIMP! CRIMP! Do NOT exceed the maximum recommended charge for the gun you are using, and also don't UNDERload below the handbook values!

[Davem]

I think I got the answer I wanted. That is, the clones are designed to be used with standard 45 Colt ammunition and were not made in a manner similar to the Ruger Blackhawk which can routinely take a higher pressure.  That's fine with me, I was just wondering.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Just wondering. Off the shelf 45 Colt ammunition is generally loaded to be safe in older SAA's but on some of the new clones such as Uberti, it is possible to slightly increase the powder charge and still be safe and if so, how much of a bump?

   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're asking is if it's possible to load ammunition for the 45 Colt that is a little more powerful than that available over the counter without exceeding SAAMI specs. The short answer is "yes", especially with lead bullets.

  Most of the lead bullet loads, especially those intended for CAS competition are loaded very light running 200 - 250 gr. bullets from 650 - 750 fps. (Please remember that a "light" load is NOT necessarily a low pressure load, and a "heavy" load is NOT necessarily a high pressure load!)

  The interesting thing about lead bullets is their weight can be increased with only minor increases in pressure vs. a lighter bullet and a similar load. Check out this article on loading a 285 gr. bullet in the 45 Colt. http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

  The first table list loads that do not exceed 14,000 psi and the author, Brian Pearce, gives a little speech on using these loads in old Colts which is probably a good indication as to why factory loads are so light. I've used this bullet quite a bit in my 4 3/4" Uberti Cattleman and LOTS in my Ruger NM (small frame) Vaquero. In the Uberti I load it under the 14,000 psi threshold and run it around 900 or a hair more. This is plenty for deer hunting and even at that recoil is all there in such a light revolver.

   Alliant, in their on-line reloading guide, lists a couple of standard 45 Colt loads with a 250 gr. SWC that substantially exceed 1000 fps and another that's just a little under.

  So there you are! Loads that are within SAAMI specs, yet are substantially more powerful than standard factory loads.

 Cholla


 

[T J B]

 Does anyone know when and why SAAMI decided on 14,000 for the Colt SAA  You may be surprised .why it is so low.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

Does anyone know when and why SAAMI decided on 14,000 for the Colt SAA  You may be surprised .why it is so low.

  Here's a guess: The original load employed 40 grains of black powder and presumably developed somewhere around the current 14,000 psi (although the pressures unit were likely CUP's back then). So, since that pressure load was safe in the old revolvers, that became SAAMI's pressure standard for the cartridge.

 Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 Cholla

[T J B]

The early guns had iron frames  then when advances were made low carbon steel was used for the cylinders. many of the old guns and their parts are in more modern day guns A colt SAA in 45 built today will take more than 14,000 with ease BUT I am only giving my opinion I have used between 9 and 10 grains with a 255 grain Keith for over 30 years in the same gun and it still runs fine It is a Lyman load . This works in my gun but may not be safe in yours.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

The early guns had iron frames  then when advances were made low carbon steel was used for the cylinders. many of the old guns and their parts are in more modern day guns A colt SAA in 45 built today will take more than 14,000 with ease BUT I am only giving my opinion I have used between 9 and 10 grains with a 255 grain Keith for over 30 years in the same gun and it still runs fine It is a Lyman load . This works in my gun but may not be safe in yours.

  Makes sense. I've used up to 9.0 grs. of Unique in my Uberti with no ill effects. Heck even Alliant's current reloading guide shows a 250 gr. Keith SWC over 9.5 grs. of Unique as their max load.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

The issue here is, where the larger Ruger Black hawk & Black hawk based Old model Vaquero could take stout loads
due to it increased size & cylinder wall thickness....

DO NOT assume the NEW Model Vaquero can take the pressures of Hot loaded 45's .

Read  DON'T DO IT !   the NMV was scaled down to more like SAA dimensions , it is not rated the same as the OMV.

Equally do not assume you can't blow-up a Black hawk

 Anybody can blow up anything. NO firearm is exempt.

  The NM Vaquero certainly is not capable of handling the 32,000 psi loads that can be by the OMV or original Blackhawk, but it is good for 22,000 - 24,000 psi. That'll allow a feller to run a 285 gr. cast SWC right up to 1100 fps. If I need more power than that, I'll carry something with a buttstock. See here, third paragraph on page 9/40 (or just read the entire article): http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf

 Cholla

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Rather than repeat myself scroll down to "STAND BY FOR A RANT" and look at my post and the comments by a lot of knowledgeable
shooters. Condensed version is the .45 Colt cartridge or gun was not designed to be a "magnum" anything.  But when loaded with a 230 grain bullet and a case of compressed FFFg HOLY BLACK it is about as magnum as you will ever want to touch off at arms length, and I guarantee it will do the job on the receiving end at a reasonable distance.
Calmly and respectfully submitted
Bunk