Author Topic: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...  (Read 1570 times)

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« on: May 31, 2021, 06:56:24 PM »
At the match, I had the cylinder on the used 5.5" 1872 over rotate past the stop when cocking hard.  Those flubbed cocks were the only shots I missed in my haste to correct the situation.

I checked it, and did not see any problem or wear with the bolt or notches, but noticed the bolt was mussy, and did not seem to have a lot of spring tension.  Popped off the trigger guard and saw it had a "Slick Springs" wire spring for bolt and trigger.  Replaced it with a factory split leaf I had in the parts box. Viola! fixed!  No matter how hard I cocked it, it positively engaged.

Anyone else ever have a problem with the wire springs????
TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2021, 07:16:36 PM »
In general I do try to stick with the leaf springs for trigger/bolt. The wire ones seem to have less snap and can weaken.  But one of my conversions has a wire spring that was made by the late Bob Taylor, and twenty years later it is still just fine!

Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2021, 08:40:48 PM »
It might depend on the thickness of the wire used for the spring. I have made them from .055" piano wire and never had a problem. It's tough as heck to shape but it works great. This one is snappy and crisp like a flat one.


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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2021, 08:45:53 PM »
That's absolutely beefy compared to the one I took out of the 1872!  It was REALLY thin!!!!!
TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
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Offline Pettifogger

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2021, 08:58:01 PM »
It is funny, the Open Tops can really vary on which spring they like.  I keep several wire springs on hand and have a box of leaf springs in varying thicknesses.  One gun will function and feel fine with a wire and its sequencially numbered mate will hate it.  Sometimes on a pair I will wind up with a leaf in one and a wire in the other yet if you pick them up and cycle them you cannot feel any difference.

Can you post a photo of the spring?  How did you know what brand it is?

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #5 on: Today at 08:40:32 AM »

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2021, 09:57:55 PM »
Often, flat springs are way over tensioned which damages parts.  I agree with Tuolumne Lawman about the feel of most wire springs. Individual coils for hand, bolt and trigger allow for much more adjustability!  Tuolumne Lawman, where does the bolt drop and make contact on the cyl? For a match gun, it needs to drop right at the beginning of the approach (unless they are very short) or 1 1/2 bolt widths before the notch and track in the center or forward of the center line of the approach.  If it tracks to the rear of the center line, throw-by is common.  Bolt head condition (and fit) play into it as well as the condition of the notches. Bolt spring resistance should be around 3lbs (less than 4lbs). Feel the bolt in a Ruger with your finger. That's about what you're looking for.

Mike

  Sorry, stopped back by and reread the O.P.'s original post and realized I agreed with his take on the wire springs, not  Marshal Will. My mistake.
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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2021, 11:42:16 PM »
That's absolutely beefy compared to the one I took out of the 1872!  It was REALLY thin!!!!!
I've tried thin ones and they didn't work very well. I had the same over rotation at match speeds. Not so with the thicker wire once it's adjusted for tension.

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2021, 09:50:41 AM »

 :) T. Lawman  ;)

First thing first ... SlixSpring doesn't make a Trigger Bolt Spring (that I know of).  There are several manufacturers, Heinie, Lee's gunsmithing, maybe a couple of others.  On top of that, there is always "Home Made."

I personally have never been a fan of Wire Trigger/Bolt springs.  Seem to make the action feel a bit mushy.  However, Throw-By is usually NOT a result of the Trigger/Bolt spring unless it is or about to fail.  The root cause(s) of Throw-By is/are Timing, Bolt fit to the Cylinder, incorrect Hand length and Action Over Travel.  Uberti compensates for any and all of the above by using Very Heavy T/B springs.  When completing an action job on Uberti's, I used Pietta T/B springs.  A bit lighter than Uberti but a nice "crisp" feel.  SO:

Check the fit of the bolt to the Cylinder notches.  Check where the hammer stops.  the hammer travel should STOP at the point the bolt locks the cylinder and the trigger sets.  If the hammer continues to the rear, it's shoving the hand into the star causing wear in all the wrong places.

Good Luck

Oh, almost forgot TL's question.  YES!  I have run into trouble with wire T/B springs but the problem was NOT the springs.

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2021, 11:10:14 AM »
Agree with CM  and also, throw-by is a symptom of a weak, failing or failed hand spring.  Jim Martin taught me that you can demonstrate throw-by with a Ruger because of the noodle of a hand spring they use .  .  .  and he's right, you can show throw-by at will with a Ruger (slight short stroking the hammer and  THAR SHE GOES !!!)!

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Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2021, 12:14:47 PM »
The fit and timing is dead on, and the spring, whoever made it (its forming does not look like home made, as the bends are crisp and concise, it was just flimsy and weak.   Coincidentally, the spring I put in was from a batch of Pietta spare parts I had from when I was exclusively shooting Pietta BPs with Kirst Konverters.
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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #10 on: Today at 08:40:32 AM »

Offline Navy Six

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2021, 05:47:21 PM »
Just re-watched one of Bob Munden's tapes(Outrageous Shooting) where in an extra feature Bob was performing one of his action jobs. He makes his own wire bolt/trigger spring out of music wire. He emphasizes its a particular wire but unfortunately doesn't identify which it is.
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2021, 07:30:20 PM »

 :)  Unfortunately  ;)

Bob Munden isn't around anymore to explain his "Music Wire" for his Trigger/Bolt Springs.  I'd like to put fourth a CAVEAT:

I'm not saying I haven't used, won't use, would never use wire Trigger/Bolt Springs.  I have used, do use, and would use in the future depending on the circumstances.  I found the wire T/B spring provided in the "Lee's Gunsmithing" spring set to be well made indeed and work quite well.  Heinie wire T/B springs are also very well made.

PIETTA T/B springs from their Cap Guns are quite heavy.  I DO reduce them.  When I did action work on SAs, I used the Pietta SA T/B spring as it was lighter than an OEM T/B spring from anyone else.  Most excellent and give a nice crisp feel to the action.

I have NEVER liked Rugers.  Have I ever mentioned that ??  I wonder   ::)

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2021, 09:35:41 PM »
Well, as long as we're talkin springs, I too didn't like Rugers either .  .  .  till I owned one!!  I had to admit that Bill did a darn good job of introducing coil action springs to the Colt type action! They definitely extend the life of the parts/revolver as well as increasing the reliability of it.  My mentor Jim Martin is not a fan of the coil spring and plunger for the hand for the above mentioned reason but told me "only do that modification on competition guns, they don't care if they put " beauty rings" on them !!"  So, I justified doing the mod most folks want (the coil and plunger hand spring conversion) as long as it performs like the flat spring it is replacing. I did so (with a larger diameter. spring and plunger).  That would keep Mr.Martin happy (it still behaved like a Colt) and customers would get the most reliable hand spring setup!! Win Win!!
  With that taken care of, it became a mission for me to adapt the coil/torsion setup for the rest of the action and to all the platforms I work on  Colt, Remington and 3 screw Rugers (yes, Rugers!)!  It took quite some time to finally come up with the right formula for each platform but in the end, I think it offers even better performance than the original Ruger setup. These days I may do 1 or 2 flat spring setups a year with all the rest being converted to coils!   
  I would offer springs (bolt and hand maybe?) but there are some mods to the action parts for total conversion so that makes it a "no go". Converting a Remington to coils is rather " involved " so definitely Not user install friendly!!! But I will say, they are quite the beast when done! They are every bit as tough as the Ruger .  .  .  just lighter!!   In all, I think it's by far the best setup as it makes all of the platforms  more a "Ruger that looks like a Colt/Remington or .  .  . just a better Ruger!! 
So, for me, if it's not coils I'd go with modified flat springs before wire springs.

Mike
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Offline RRio

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2021, 09:25:46 PM »
It might depend on the thickness of the wire used for the spring. I have made them from .055" piano wire and never had a problem. It's tough as heck to shape but it works great. This one is snappy and crisp like a flat one.



I re-engineered a pair of needle nose vise grips to make mine. My son used them on his truck for something and broke off one of the noses. Now I keep all my gunsmith tools in a special tool box marked with "Death Penalty" warning stickers.   DAMN kids !! >:( >:(
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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2021, 12:01:29 AM »
I re-engineered a pair of needle nose vise grips to make mine. My son used them on his truck for something and broke off one of the noses. Now I keep all my gunsmith tools in a special tool box marked with "Death Penalty" warning stickers.   DAMN kids !! >:( >:(
Yes, it's wise to keep those special tools separate. I've lost a few things that way myself.

Long nose vice grips do sound like a good tool to start with. I used long-handled duckbill pliers for my donor tool.

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Offline RRio

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2021, 06:36:31 AM »
Yes, it's wise to keep those special tools separate. I've lost a few things that way myself.

Long nose vice grips do sound like a good tool to start with. I used long-handled duckbill pliers for my donor tool.


 I got a pair of dowel pins close to the size of the trigger spring screw diameter and welded them to the front of the vise grips.
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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2021, 08:44:55 AM »

 I got a pair of dowel pins close to the size of the trigger spring screw diameter and welded them to the front of the vise grips.
That sounds good.

On mine, I cut the tips off down to the section where there were no grip grooves and rounded the tips with a peanut grinder. The small section is about the same size as your dowel pins, roughly 5/32" dia. The larger rounded part was used for some other purposes.


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Offline RRio

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2021, 11:46:42 PM »
I have a new Open tops that I might try the "old fashioned way" on. Thinned down trigger side and the whole spring polished out to relieve the stress fractures on the edges.
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Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2021, 09:26:02 AM »
It would be best to thin the bolt side more so than the trigger side.  You don't want to end up with an unsafe revolver. The reproduction guns have almost always had this backwards. The combo spring should have the bolt side thiner than the trigger side (just like the originals!). You don't need "cylinder scaring/ cam eating" tension on the bolt !!  3-4lbs tension is plenty (check the pressure on a Ruger to get an idea).

  Good luck with the flats, they can work.

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Re: Not a fan of "Slick Springs" in revolvers...
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2021, 10:47:47 PM »
I am going to give one several I have worked up a try this week. While I have good lick with the store bought and the homemade wires, I just want to see how well my thinned downed polished factory springs will do. I have a Sheriff's Model 1851 coming and I am curious. I have also got a cheapy trigger gauge coming so I can do some before and after testing.   :D
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