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CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Dave Fox on May 05, 2020, 10:44:17 AM

Title: .44 American
Post by: Dave Fox on May 05, 2020, 10:44:17 AM
Am shooting (on occasion) an 1871-delivered S&W .44 American in .44 American, using trimmed .41 Magnum brass and an original style heeled bullet. The heeled bullet is a pain. Anyone use a hollow base bullet in .44s they can recommend? Slightly compressed FFFg loads are rather anemic, which is fine, but may not open up too thick a hollow-base's skirt.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on May 05, 2020, 01:18:17 PM
Are you crimping?  Old West Bullet Molds makes a fine crimper for the .44 American, I know it made a great difference in my heel base loadings.  I doubt a hollow base is going to improve things much.

I've never found Heel Base loadings to be particularly more difficult than regular BP loadings myself.  I dip lube the bullets after completing the round. 

https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/44-sw-american-crimp-die
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: AntiqueSledMan on May 06, 2020, 05:15:17 AM
Hello Dave,

I've heard mixed results with hollow based bullets, what powder you shooting?
I'm loading my 44 Colt Original heeled bullet with Black MZ, no need for lube.
Not sure what part of loading heeled bullets is the pain.
I first lubed with my cylinder press & a homemade lubricator,
and still crimp with a modified LEE Factory Crimp Die.
Let me know what's trouble you & I'll try and help you out.

AntiqueSledMan.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: pony express on May 06, 2020, 09:08:55 AM
I'll second what Drydock said. I've used the OWS crimp die for .38 Colt, and it works great. I just hand seat the bullets by pushing them against the edge of the loading bench, then run them through the crimp die. The mold for the heel base bullets also came from them. Unfortunately, the Colt 1892 Army I was shooting them was only marginally functional at the time. Maybe I need to convert a .36 C&B, just so I can use those dies again.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Dave Fox on May 06, 2020, 06:25:11 PM
Am shooting the Old West mould's heeled bullet. Beautiful mould. And, yes, the crimping is what has me stymied. I'll surely look into their crimper. Using FFFg and SPG. Thanks.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: AntiqueSledMan on May 07, 2020, 11:38:56 AM
Hello Dave,

Yes, after one has it down it's just another step.
If your loading on a progressive press it might be different but I'm using a single stage press.
I've put together a PDF showing what I did & how others have overcome this issue.


AntiqueSledMan.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: bear tooth billy on May 07, 2020, 08:34:20 AM
I use the old west mould and crimp die for 38 long colt in a Kirst
conversion 51 navy. It works well, I have the cylinder on my bench
and test fit every round until you're confident. I shoot in the NCOWS
originals class and most people don't know what a heeled bullet is.
Even though they have shot thousands  .22s

           BTB
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on May 28, 2020, 08:43:50 AM
I have a #2 Remington rolling block that was originally 44 rimfire. Chamber measurements revealed that it was nearly identical to 44 S&W American. I load for it using the BACO 44 S&W American bullet, the Old West bullet and a Lyman 427098 bullet that I lathe turn a heel on.  I have Bernie's 44 collet crimp die, it works great. It is a surprisingly accurate rifle.  Loaded with 23 gr of Old Eynsford 3F, I'm averaging 1124fps.  Not too shabby, and not far below a good 44-40 load.   

Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Coffinmaker on May 28, 2020, 10:41:45 AM

ndnchf,

Where you be getting yer 44 S&W 'Merican Brass pray tell??  Don't find it at Starline.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on May 28, 2020, 10:57:07 AM
Initially, I made it from 303 Savage brass. But that took a bit of lathe work.  Now I use shortened 41 Magnum brass.  The rim is a little small.  It extracts fine, but every once in a while one will slip past the extractor going in.  But as long as I pay attention, it works fine.   
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on May 28, 2020, 11:06:04 AM
I'll add that I've been experimenting with an old time factory heel bullet lube.  The bullets are dipped in the lube after loading. This lube was recounted in an interview with a retired ammunition factory worker in a 1943 issue of The American Rifleman.  It is 1 part paraffin, 1 part mutton tallow, 1/2 part beeswax. It dries to a non-sticky coating, yet is soft enough to chamber without interference.  So far, I'm very happy with its performance with both smokeless and black powder.  The bore stays quite clean and I get a nice lube star at the muzzle.



Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Coffinmaker on May 28, 2020, 12:37:47 PM

Thank You!!
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on May 28, 2020, 03:50:45 PM
Starline makes a .41 Special brass now, it's a bit shorter, less brass to cut back.  https://www.starlinebrass.com/41-special

I use it to load .440 Argentine, which is simply .44 American with a different name.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on September 18, 2020, 10:28:44 AM
I meant to follow up earlier, but forgot.  Here are four 50 yard targets shooting .44 S&W American in my #2 Remington rolling block.  This is with just barrel sights and my aging eyes.  But it shows good potential, and no keyholing.  My best accuracy was with 6.0gr of Unique.  One target shows this as I kept adjusting the sights.  Its a lot of fun to shoot.  This rifle was converted from rimfire to centerfire.  But I have found in Roy Marcot's book on Remington sporting rifles, that .44 S&W American was a  factory chambering for some rifles. 

Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: swampman on September 19, 2020, 08:23:20 AM
ndnchf,

Where you be getting yer 44 S&W 'Merican Brass pray tell??  Don't find it at Starline.

 Buffalo Arms stocks ready formed .44 American cases.

  https://www.buffaloarms.com/44-american-cases-44american
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Coffinmaker on September 19, 2020, 11:06:25 AM

Buffalo Arms be right proud of their 44 American.  Of course, since it is a obsolete cartridge with a very small market base, and limited production cost is higher, probably not all that bad.  I'd personally substitute 44 Russian (already do) which is readily available and a whole LOT more frugal (Cheaper).

Stay Safe
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on September 19, 2020, 01:08:46 PM
?  How do you do that?  Swage the whole case down ?
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on September 20, 2020, 04:22:17 AM
I'm using shortened 41 magnum brass. The rim is a tad smaller, but it works fine.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Coffinmaker on September 20, 2020, 04:40:54 PM

 :)  Drydock   ;)

Ah fitzwilly.  Poor choice of phrase, or syntax, or confusion, or well dagnebbit anyway.

What I meant was, Rather than 44 American, I substitute with guns chambered in 44 Special or 44 Colt and then further substitute 44 Russian Cases and then further substitute APP as a substitute propellant.

So as one can plainly see, my substitutions allow me to substitute guns and cartridges to circumvent the non availability of suitably chambered gun and an almost complete lack of suitable munitions for said non available arms.  As it twer.  I also substitute C45S for ............... oh nevermind
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on September 20, 2020, 06:53:14 PM
I have been led astray by both sins and taxs.  When you puts them together like that it makes for hard living amongst the ballistic unbelievers.   :P
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 02, 2021, 06:57:57 AM
Dredging up this old thread because I was loading some .44 S&W American for my #2 rolling block.  I mentioned earlier that I use Lyman/Ideal 427098 bullets (the classic .44-40 bullet) by turning a heel on them with the lathe.  I had to make more the other day, so I made a short video showing how easy it is to do. This bullet is on the right, next to an Old West Molds bullet.



https://youtu.be/ziw5hcccEg4
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Major 2 on April 02, 2021, 10:11:26 AM
Buffalo Arms be right proud of their 44 American.  Of course, since it is a obsolete cartridge with a very small market base, and limited production cost is higher, probably not all that bad.  I'd personally substitute 44 Russian (already do) which is readily available and a whole LOT more frugal (Cheaper).

Stay Safe

Buffalo is right proud of all their brass Etc. , I went to them for 41 Swiss brass ,course "if" you're the only-ist supplier of formed  CF 41 Swiss, " It " stands as the only game ?  ya pay's to play  :)

But on the flip side , I'm quite flush in 44 Russian - 700 new Starline  came in the deal with this
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Professor Marvel on April 02, 2021, 05:09:04 PM
Dredging up this old thread because I was loading some .44 S&W American for my #2 rolling block.  I mentioned earlier that I use Lyman/Ideal 427098 bullets (the classic .44-40 bullet) by turning a heel on them with the lathe. .....


Ah My Good Sir

You make me feel almost normal!
Here I thought I was the only person crazy enough to be turning lead bullets on a lathe!

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 02, 2021, 05:55:45 PM
Well professor, as they say "necessity is the mother of invention"  ;D
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on April 02, 2021, 06:20:04 PM
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-220A
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 03, 2021, 05:28:08 AM
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-220A

That's a nice looking mold. I've been thinking lately of a bullet with two lube grooves for more capacity in my rifle length barrel. The dip lubeing shown earlier provides plenty of lube, but almost too much.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on April 03, 2021, 06:52:08 PM
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-310B

Take this one, have Tom remove the bottom band and groove to leave a standard heel, Set the diameters as you wish for the upper part of the bullet.  End up around .80 long.  Would it be too long for your rate of twist?  Tom will make anything you want if you can describe it well

Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 04, 2021, 08:52:51 AM
Drydock - thanks, that could work. But I need to be careful not only of the weight, but how far out the first driving band is. I don't want to shorten the case any in order to seat the cartridge. Powder capacity now is about 23gr of Old E 3F, compressed. The original balloon head capacity was 25gr. I need to go back and get some good chamber measurements.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on April 04, 2021, 09:28:58 AM
Make the upper bands bore diameter.  You'ld want to do that for easy chambering anyways.  You can make these bands any diameter you want.  Most heel base RIFLE bullets with multiple exposed lube grooves run bore diameter bodies with only the base band at groove diameter.  You pretty much have to do this with most of the bullet outside of the case.  The bullet I'm using here is the italian Vetterli design, I use this mold in my Vetterli's with excellent accurracy. 

I would also say though, that burning only 23 grains of powder, a single good lube groove like the 220a would probably work just fine. 
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 04, 2021, 10:29:45 AM
Good point about making the upper bands bore riding. Here are the three bullets I've been using so far. L-R heel turned 427098, old West Molds .44 S&W American and BACO's .44 S&W American.

Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on April 04, 2021, 02:09:00 PM
All fine molds.  Whyever did you start cutting heels on the old 427098s?   ???
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 04, 2021, 02:55:53 PM
All fine molds.  Whyever did you start cutting heels on the old 427098s?   ???

Just because I like to experiment , LOL!

I had 427098s on hand. When waiting for the BACO bullets to arrive I figured why not give it a try. A little later I ordered the Ol West mold. All 3 shoot well, but I do believe the 427098s have a slight edge.

I've done the same thing to make bullets for 32 rimfire and 32 Ballard XL. It's just a cheap and easy way to make heel bullets  ;D

Here is another video I made about making the 32 heel bullets.

https://youtu.be/e76FJEfzW_k
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: AntiqueSledMan on April 05, 2021, 04:25:48 AM
Great Video's Steve,

Here's what I did for my 44 Colt.
I took the LEE 450-200-1R, the 200gr Black Powder bullet.
Then I swagged a heel on it with my little two piece die on an arbor press.
Gives me a 0.428" heel at whatever depth I set it at.
Down fall is it's a set diameter.
Plus is no cutting of lead bullet.

AntiqueSledMan.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 06, 2021, 07:03:34 AM
The ingenuity of old gun nuts always amazes me  :)
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 06, 2021, 10:21:15 AM
Browsing the Accurate Molds catalog for ideas for a slightly heavier bullet for my rifle, I see a number of heel molds that have a lube groove in the heel, rather than outside.  Here are a couple examples:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-230H


http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-250H

I don't know if this is a modern innovation or if this design dates back to the 19th century. Perhaps it was an evolutionary step along the way?  I'm wondering how effective this would be. Assuming a soft alloy, the heel should expand into the grooves. But I have no experience with this design. Has anyone else ?   What do you guys think?
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Drydock on April 06, 2021, 12:03:16 PM
Several 19th century designs used something like this.  Both the Swiss and Italian Vetterli bullets did this.  Basicly a bore riding tail.  I  would think combustion pressure would help evacuate lube from the groove and mix it with fouling as its generated.  But its going to cost you powder capacity in a small case.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 06, 2021, 12:28:13 PM
Good point about losing powder capacity. These heels are much longer than the normal .150" of a .44S&W American bullet. 
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: DJ on April 06, 2021, 04:29:56 PM
Accurate 44-230H was designed for the .44 Evans Long but should work in .44 American, although there is the powder capacity issue Drydock mentions--you would be limited to lighter loads.

Accurate 44-210M is similar, but a lighter bullet and you would have the same case capacity issue in a .44 American, although you should be able to get a little bit more velocity on account of the lighter bullet.  44-210M was designed for the .44 Merwin Hulbert (long), which is about the same case as .44 Special, except the MH case is dimensioned for a heeled bullet.  With the longer case powder capacity is not an issue.

--DJ
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: ndnchf on April 06, 2021, 04:45:23 PM
Both the Old West and BACO .44 S&W American bullets are about 218gr. The heel cut 427098 is about 208gr. So there is really nothing to be gained with another bullet of similar weight. I don't know if a heavier bullet would gain me anything either. Just speculating at this point.
Title: Re: .44 American
Post by: Abilene on April 06, 2021, 05:50:43 PM
Regarding availability of the gun...
Someone mentioned on the Colt clone forum that they just got a Cimarron Cavalry from Midway USA.  I checked their stock, and they do have a very small selection of guns in stock.  Including: the American in 45 Colt.  And the price is $999 with free shipping, which seems decent to me.  With guns as hard as they are to find these days, thought I'd mention it in case someone is looking for one.