Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => Gunsmithing => Topic started by: Frenchie on November 14, 2004, 11:22:42 PM
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I have the Anvil Enterprises plans for converting a .36 caliber 1851 Navy Colt cap and ball revolver to cartridges with design techniques that were used in the post-CW era, available at http://www.anvilenterprises.com/index.htm I like this approach because it makes a more-historical conversion than using an R&D or Kirst converter, although I like/want them too. Anyway, some questions for the experienced metal fabricators:
1. If I were to use brass instead of steel for the conversion plate, would or could this create safety and/or reliability problems? It seems to me the biggest area of concern would be that the hammer might peen the heck out of the brass around the firing pin. Is there enough structural rigidity to withstand the hammer impact, especially if I lighten the mainspring until it just ignites the primer?
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The firing pin will still be drill rod steel, not brass, and its bushing will be steel also.
The color won't be a problem, I know a way to make brass look just like black-oxided steel.
Of course only black powder will be used in the cartridges.
2. What are my options for cartridge caliber, cylinder diameter and bore size?
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I know that I'd have to use hollow-based .357 inch bullets so the skirts will flare out to engage the rifling in the .375 inch bore, unless I can get heeled bullets that fit the bore. I may be able to get the barrel relined to .357 bore so I can use regular .38 Special bullets, but of course that makes the cylinders more complicated because the .38 Special requires a shoulder in the cylinder.
3. If this could actually be made to work, how about a .44 caliber, scaling up the dimensions as needed? .44-40 would of course require reaming the cylinders with a tapered shoulder and relining the barrel to a .429 bore. Scaling down to .31 caliber isn't anticipated, I'd get a commercial conversion cylinder for that.
Answers to Anticipated Questions/Comments:
Yes, I'm crazy, but don't worry, I'm not stupid. Okay, I'm not dangerously stupid. I think.
The reason I think this could work is that I showed the plans to my brother the machinist this evening. I had thought of it before and dismissed it as being too full of unknowns, but then he wondered if this could be done in brass instead of steel, and he knows a lot more about metals than I ever will. We talked about it and decided it might be worth trying (remote testing with a string on the trigger sounds like a good idea). I left him for a while to raid his pantry and when I got back, he was making a CAD/CAM drawing of the conversion plate on his laptop. Cool, eh?
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Frenchie,
That sounds very interesting, please keep up the posts on how it works out especialy the 44-40 conversion
Old Top
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Will try, OT. Things may not happen soon as the only machine tools I can get to easily are in an unheated garage, winter's around the corner, and I'll have to learn to use them first. Shouldn't be a big problem with my brother being an expert, but then you know how brothers sometimes don't get along :)
Positive point is that if we go with brass, I have a big chunk of it that we can make chips out of for days. If we go with steel, he can get access to a scrapyard full of it that we can pick and choose from.
Thinking about this project is what made me decide I want to learn to use metalworking machines, and I'm sure many more projects will occur to me when I do. Windage-adjustable front sight and ladder-type rear sight on my Rossi, for instance. Brass barrel bands, ooohh...
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Frenchie,
Always wanted brass side plates on my 44-40
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Frenchie, a couple a thoughts here ta think about. I would not worry about the hamer and the conversion plate so much as I would about cartridge set back on firin' Most folks don't realize how much force is at work here.
I'll give you a good, easy to try at home experiment. Take a primed case and fire it with a stardard flash hole and see how far it backs out. In a powdered round that force of setback is enough to reseat the primer. I would rethink the brass, part myself very seriously. Do the instrutions have any recomendation of the type of steel?
The other thing on the 44, the 44-40 has a larger diamater case and leaves you less margin of safety than a 44 Russian or the 44 Colt. Even Blackpowder in Pistol Rounds develops maybe at least 10,000 psi. This could throw chunks of metal from a cylinder failure with a bit of force. Look a max diamater of 44 Colt/Russian case compared to 44-40. Those extra thousandths of an inch are that much safety margin. Just some thoughts Pard, the fingers and eyes you damage if it fails might be yer own, or could belong to someone with a good lawyer.
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I agree with Delmonico. I would make such a back plate out of 4130 chrome moly plate. Hard to machine, but strong enough to withstand a greater degree of punishment by far. You can get it from Aircraft Spruce, 800-861-3192.
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Nother thought here, for ease of machinin' why not just a mild low carbon steel. When done onecould case harden it with case-it from Brownells, wouldn't have the colors of the cyinide methods but the results would be good.
Note: Most more than likely know it, but the colors on the old guns was not there to be pretty, but were put there when the wrought iron or mild stell was finished and then it was case hardened. This made it tough on the outside, but allowed a little flexin if needed. Today with better steels and better machine tools one don't need to do this, but it is still a good method.
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I wasn't thinking, or I think too much in terms of modern guns and cartridges, but of course the Colt Army .44 can't be converted to .44-40. I wonder though if the Remington can be? On second thought, no one in the Old West would bother converting an old cap 'n' ball revolver, or one that had already been converted to the .44 Colt, to a rifle round that came out in 1873 because there were too many better guns out by then. Colt made the .44-40 Frontier Six-Shooter in the 1880s, IIRC.
Mild steel is the recommended material for the conversion plate. As I said, my brother knows more about metals than I do and I'll discuss it with him. I can get the numbers and we can come up with some idea as to whether it would work. If he says we go with mild steel, that's what we'll do.
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I like Delmonico's idea of the case hardening. Would make a really good-lookin' iron.
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MWW, the Brownells stuff will make it a grayish color, to get the colors it would have to be sent to someone who does the cyinide type, not somethin' that can be done at home.
Frenchie ask yer brother is he knows what a farmer type case hardenin' is. few do but it can be handy to know when away from a machine shop. ;D ;DAnd it works.
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Okay, I'll bite, what's "farmer type case hardening"?
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I'm bettin' a cup of strong coffee he's gonna tell ya about old time blacksmiths putting metal into a pile of wet cow or horse manure and letting the 'natural' acids 'etch' it. Ancient masters also utilized urine from animals to 'cure' leather as well, you DO NOT want to get an inexpensive leather bag from another country wet, it will tell you right away how it was cured! Granted, this methodology is an artistic as well as innovative form of technology, just one we don't normally utilize in our modern and sweet-smelling era. However, if you are wanting to pursue the old ways and have a strong stomah and a desire to relive the days of yesteryear, then by all means secure a gallon of animal drippings and put your saddlebags in it to soak, Get a bucket and stick your revolver into a pile of fresh farm goodie and pretty soon I guarantee you'll smell just like a Cowpoke from the 1880's in no time at all!
Best regards and if I'm wrong I'm buying and I'll smile when I pour!
'Ol Gabe
P.S. The 'etch' you get from this method is actually quite interesting and some use it to make new metal look old, it gets a Damascus look to it.
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More modern Gabe. When you break a pin or somthin' like it and you got a shop but no hardened pin you make one out of a nail or grade 2 bolt. Ya take yer oxy/acetalyne tourch and heat it to a bright red and turn off the O2 and coat it with heavy soot. Go back to a neutral flame and keep it bright red, goin' back once in a while to the soot. After a few minutes of this quench it in water, it will be somewhat harder and will often get you by better than a soft part till someone can run into town an get the right one.
Garlic powder mixed with vinegar will age this well also and ya don't have to play with cow poop, not a good idea in the days of so much big E, as in Coli. ;D
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Delmonico,
It never ceases to amaze me all the information you and our other Pards have at their fingertips, I had heard about this method but have never seen it put into action, thanks for the detailed explanation! BTW, I'll still buy and pour!
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
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Sometimes duck tape just won't work and improvisin' can keep things goin' till ya can get the right parts. I once in the days before cell phones lost the fan belt on a Real VW Beetle on a day of about 100 degrees. I was about 5 miles from a phone and to drive it that way would be a death sentance on a perfectly good engine. Did not want to leave a bunch a guns in a car even if it was locked, removed the windshield washer hose and wrapped it around and tied it in a knot and trimmed the ends.
I had to drive slow and stop and put it back on a couple of times but I saved an engine or a long hot walk. ;D
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Sometimes duck tape just won't work and improvisin' can keep things goin' till ya can get the right parts. I once in the days before cell phones lost the fan belt on a Real VW Beetle on a day of about 100 degrees. I was about 5 miles from a phone and to drive it that way would be a death sentance on a perfectly good engine. Did not want to leave a bunch a guns in a car even if it was locked, removed the windshield washer hose and wrapped it around and tied it in a knot and trimmed the ends.
I had to drive slow and stop and put it back on a couple of times but I saved an engine or a long hot walk.
panty hose would've worled too...
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I was wearin' jeans that day and didn't have pantyhose on. ;D I've heard that one also.
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Howdy Frenchie,
Stick to the mild steel for the back plate, not brass. It does take a beating but not enough to require case harding or 4130 or 4140 steel. Since the gun you have is .36 cal., your choice of caliber is 38 Long Colt or something shorter. The 38LC with a hollow base RNFP bullet just barely fits the cylinder. A 38 Special hollow base wadcutter will also fit. This is strictly a black powder only gun. The plans call for you to use the existing cylinder, just cutting the back off to convert it to cartridges. This isn't a .44 caliber canidate in any size. These are fun guns when you get done. If you have questions, feel free to ask.
Wheels
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Wheels and All,
Advice and wise words much appreciated, thanks. It'll be a while before I have the time and facilities to do anything in this line, but I look forward to it. I think there'll be a special thrill to shooting cartridge conversions I made myself.
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Adding my .02 to this thread.
I've designed/built a number of conversions in the virtual reality of 3D CAD.
The Anvil plans seem workable, but you have to base some dimensions on the particular gun your converting.
Mild steel 1010-1020 is workable, but I'd prefer 4140 heat treated to 36 Rc for better duarability.
I assume your using a lathe, if so, carbide tooling will easily cut heat-treated material.
Case hardening the mild steel is acceptable. Carburizing is the fancy term applied to the technique of flame-hardening that Delmonico refers.
Need a much larger diameter cylinder for .44-40....not easily feasible on the Colts. But, the Remington can accomodate this round.
Slim
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Even the Remington is too small to convert to 44-40. That is why the R&D cylinders in .45LC are made at a slight angle. The Remington cylinder can accomadate the .44 Colt round because it has a small rim and some cylinders can hold three .44 Spec. rounds by loading every other hole. The 1875 Remington has a bigger cylinder diameter.
The .38LC and the .44 Colt conversions are less likely to be loaded with factory ammo by mistake. Both size conversions need to use hollow base bullets because of the original bore size of the cap and ball guns.
Wheels
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Must be cool to have a brother who's a machinerist!
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Must be cool to have a brother who's a machinerist!
It is, and he's a good one, master class in fact. We might get the parts made on a CNC machine, but I think the metal will look like it was made on a CNC machine and I might have to finish it by hand. He thinks bluing is a poor way to protect metal from rusting, which from his point of view is true, but they didn't have cadmium plating back in the 1870's. We're both getting an education just talking about this stuff.
Another problem is there's a milling machine I can use to learn and make parts on, but it's in an unheated garage and the really cold weather will be here by the time I get this move out of the way, so it looks like I'll have to wait 'til warm weather before I can get going on this. I want my own shop setup eventually, but that's $$$ I have to save up (and can't spend on guns :().
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Greetings Frenchie -
I came across this ancient thread and began wondering how your project came out ? Did you have to modify the Anvil plans? I would love to see photos and details of your conversion ring.
yhs
Prof Marvel