Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The American Plainsmen Society => Topic started by: Niederlander on October 23, 2021, 07:42:06 AM
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Gentlemen, I've been doing research on various muzzle loaders, and their authenticity. The most common comment I keep seeing is some form of "It's not close to a real Hawken". In most cases that's entirely true. I do wonder if most people who should know better realize Hawkens were a small minority of the rifles used in the west. Most seemed to have used whatever they already had, at least until it wore out. Many were rebored to bigger calibers, but that was a whole lot less expensive to have done than buying a new rifle, especially for people who were pretty financially strapped to start with. Just because we think something is cool doesn't mean the majority of people used it. Just my thoughts.
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I agree. But even among "Plains rifles", Hawken's were only a small portion. To me the term Hawken is used like saying "Corvette" to mean an automobile.
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Part of this lies with the various writers of the era who lumped things together - thus, any half-stock Plains Rifle became a 'Hawken' - every lever action a 'Winchester and every revolver a 'Colt'.
It was far easier for them to do that, than explain what a 'Leman', a "Whitney-Kennedy' or a 'Merwin-Hulbert' was, and besides, their intended audience didn't know - or care.
Kinda like C&WAS shooters who draw their historical knowledge from John Ford movies and TV oaters.
Scouts Out!
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Another point about the Hawken and it's place in history. They were never "the Mountain Man's choice. The greatest use/appearance of the infamous half stock percussion rifle was in the 1840s and 1950s. Long after the beaver were trapped out and rendezvous were a thing of the past.
Dave
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Excellent point, the saa may have been the most produced handgun of the 19th century but was only a fraction of the total handguns used. Just depends how you want to play the numbers.
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I must concur with the sentiments generally expressed so far ... the "Hawken" name gets applied altogether too much, and to guns which don't look anything like a real Hawken rifle ...perhaps the worst case in point being the long-produced, but basically "gaudy" Thompson/Center "Hawken" ... I will freely admit to having one for a while, but ultimately "wised up" and went to a Lyman "Great Plains" rifle, which I then used for quite a few years. Much more authentic appearance ... besides, they didn't call it a "Hawken" anyway ...
Regretfully, I disposed of the Lyman some years back when I gravitated out of shooting muzzleloaders ... retaining only my .50 Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle (flint/percussion convertible), my Miroku Brown Bess and my Parker-Hale P'1853 rifle.
However, some time after that... but still several years ago ... a chap I know was disposing of a rifle he had received in a trade, or some such, which was much too "beefy" for him to enjoy handling and shooting, offered to me at a price I absolutely could not refuse - a custom-made .62 cal. Hawken-style rifle, with a full octagon barrel 1⅛" across the flats, complete with a .60 roundball mould. It is truly a thing of beauty, but now I must make another embarrasing admission: although I have owned it now for several years, I have never gotten around to casting any ball, and thus have never fired it! (At 6' 4" and weighing in at over 21 stone (... 1 stone = 14 pounds ... you do the math ...) I find this rifle quite pleasant to handle ... although I'd definitely want a horse if I had to carry it very far!)
:-\ ::) :-\ ::)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/997x641q90/923/OXVHn8.jpg)
Mind you, I was at the range the other day with a long-time friend from those muzzle-loading days ... who also pretty much gave up shooting front-stuffers at the same time I did, when we both transitioned heavily into Cowboy Action shooting ... and we were talking about dusting off the old girls and giving it another whirl. (Dale: in fact, that would be Merle "Squirrel" Krause, who you will remember accompanying me to Muster, second-kast time I was able to come, who was so enamoured of your Krag that you let him shoot in the Long Range ...)
Weather forecast here is for pleasant, but a little on the cool side, for the next week or so ... and I am very seriously considering a bullet casting session ... in which case that .60RB mould will definitely come out!
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That's a REALLY nice rifle, Grant! How much does it weigh?
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As near as I can tell, using the “weigh yourself with and without the rifle” method, it is about 12 pounds, maybe less. Not too bad, really … With that massive barrel, it seems comparatively “front-heavy” when you pick it up, but it settles into a very steady hold when shouldered to fire …
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Dale,
The only marking on this rifle is a small, neat stamping of "ADCOCK" on the top barrel flat. Tried googling the name and I am pretty sure the maker would have been "Mike Adcock", based on this online listing of muzzleloaders for sale privately a few years ago - https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=984334 (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=984334)
The one this chap had for sale, that he says was built by "Mike Adcock", is very similar to mine (i.e .62 cal, percussion, 34" barrel 1⅛" or more across the flats) although the tiger-stripe maple is lighter toned, the lock & barrel-key escutcheons appear not to be browned, the barrel marking sounds a bit different, and the cheekpiece inlay is different.
(I wonder if you maybe should contact this chap ... the original listing was in late 2014, but there is no indication of any sales, and his last "bump" of the post was as late as early 2016. Possibility he might still have them ... or some of them ... and after a while he was asking for offers ...)
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I’m inclined to agree with those whose research has revealed that Hawken’s rifles were considered to have great merit, but was definitely not the only arm out there. Even if we forget about all the other guns on the frontier and focus only on the arms of the Mountaineers and Border Hunters, they tend to be rifles of .50 to about .62 as a general rule with a few being smaller or larger-bored outliers.
There was a wide variety of Southern ‘Pig Guns’ to larger-bored ‘Pennsylvania’, ‘Carolina’, ‘Virginia’, or ‘Kentucky’ rifles to name a few. The term ‘Jager’ carried over from the German short-barreled, big-bore rifles and applied themselves in slang to everything from American rifles of like-design to the US Army’s m1841 ‘Mississippi’ Rifle. A good example is G. W. Kendall’s travels through the Southwest in 1841 where he remarked on carrying a Dickson Rifle (well known of Louisville, KY.) The rifle was ’24 balls to the pound’ or 24g. (.59 cal.).
Jacob & Samuel Hawken reputedly furnished Wm. H. Ashley with a rifle in 1823. By 1825, they had an established shop that did metal working from tool manufacturing to gun repair and gun manufacturing. Other famous owners of Hawken’s guns were Jim Bridger, Kitt Carson, Jos. Meek, and Jedediah Smith to name a few. Their location in St. Louis made them visible to western travelers and following Jacob’s death, Samuel set up shop in Denver and the story of the rifle continued to grow from there.
Contemporary writers such as George F. Ruxton and R. Marcy added to Hawken’s fame just like other writers continued to do. The script of Jeremiah Johnson spoke excessively of the Hawken just like the Crow-Killer novel (1969). The film , Jeremiah Johnson borrows heavily from Ruxton so a connection can be drawn there as well. Regardless, there were many rifles in the hands of Mountain Men but the Hawken became as symbolic for the muzzle loading rifles of that time as a ‘Colt’ would be for the revolvers of the following generations.
Great discussion.
-Dave
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Seems like you cant mention even the TC without hearing the express right to know liability osha statement about how unauthentic it is. But considering how many people its brought into the hobby my question is. Does it resemble any common rifle of the period?
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Seems like you cant mention even the TC without hearing the express right to know liability osha statement about how unauthentic it is. But considering how many people its brought into the hobby my question is. Does it resemble any common rifle of the period?
I think it's more a question of what would make you happy in the black powder hobby. The TCs are fine shooters. If all you want to do is some muzzle loading from time to time, it's a good, inexpensive way to try it out, minus the large financial commitment. I have logged some range time with TC rifles over the years, and have found a few to be decent. BUT if you are interested in doing a historically accurate impression, run as far from TC as you can. For lack of a better way of saying it, they don't shoot as nicely as the more historically accurate custom rifles do, and aesthetically, they don't look right at all. If you took a TC and laid it on a table full of original 19th century American rifles, the TC would fit in like a Yugo in a 1950's classic car lineup. It has a very cheap, generic design overall, as well as the various parts that distinctly have the look of a generic-made muzzle loading boom-stick from the 1980s but it looks nothing like a gun to have crossed the divide with Walker, Beckworth or Smith. If you have one, shoot it and enjoy. It just does not look right to serious living history interpreters. My recommendation is to take the route that brings you the most enjoyment here.
-Dave
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Well said Dave. Very well said.
Dave
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Well said, Dave. I agree completely. I am, however going to use some parts (at least a barrel) and see if I can fabricate something fairly authentic from them. I've been looking at a lot of original rifles from the 1850's online, and I'm amazed at the variety of styles. I guess I shouldn't be when you consider thousands of different 'smiths were building them for lots of different people. One thing I've noticed is a lot of longer rifles seemed to have been cut down and remodeled for frontier use. Even found pictures of an actual Hawken built rifle that looked very little like what people think of as a "Hawken". (One of their "Light Rifles".) Been learning lots!
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For your general fund of information there's a new Hawken book out titled The Hawken Rifle by Bob Woodfill. It got a very good right up in the latest the Black Powder Cartridge News. It's hardcover with 182 pages and lots of color photos.
For order info contact Bob Woodfill, 11428 N. State Route #56, Vevay, IN 47043.
Dave
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I mentioned that I intended to get some ball cast for my .62 Hawken ... and I did get around to it ...
I can see how the .600" ball should be a pretty decent "bison and grizzly thumper" ... the other picture is a comparison with a .495" ball ... ≈180gr vs. 320gr ...
Now I need to make time to get out and shoot it!
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You've got a lot of balls to post that, RJR.
(Someone had to say it . . .)
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He does, indeed! (That should be a "thumper" alright!)
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::)
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I have a Don Kammerrer custom Hawken that I like to use in photos for my articles. https://www.frontieramericanillustratednews.com/post/the-hunting-bag-of-the-19th-century-frontier
Outstanding .54 Rifle. It has a G. R. Douglas barrel and I absolutely love it's durability and accuracy. To y understanding, Don Kammerer played a key role in developing the TC and CVA muzzleloaders which drew most of us into muzzleloading. Don's custom work however, is top-rail quality.
As much as I agree that Hawken guns were rare among the many brands, I really enjoy carrying mine.
-Dave
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The classic Hawken rifle may of been rare in the mountains but it would akin to the guy in high school with a Shelby cobra, it would be an enviable thing to have!
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Howdy all and Tsalagidave,
I can assure you that Don Kammerer was responsible to the design of the CVA Mountain Rifle . I worked at CVA and was responsible for getting his prototype into production initially in Spain and shortly later made (mostly) in the states using spanish parts and American maple stocks. These guns had a uniquely manufactured barrel blank that produced surprising accuracy for the reasonable cost.
I doubt that Don did any work for T/C, but I can't say for certain that he didn't.
I also have one of his German styled long rifles in 54 cal. It is a showpiece.
Rev. Chase
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Howdy all and Tsalagidave,
I can assure you that Don Kammerer was responsible to the design of the CVA Mountain Rifle . I worked at CVA and was responsible for getting his prototype into production initially in Spain and shortly later made (mostly) in the states using spanish parts and American maple stocks. These guns had a uniquely manufactured barrel blank that produced surprising accuracy for the reasonable cost.
I doubt that Don did any work for T/C, but I can't say for certain that he didn't.
I also have one of his German styled long rifles in 54 cal. It is a showpiece.
Thanks for the insight Rev. Chase. I'm glad to know you and would love to hear more about your era of ML gun production. It was inexpensive muzzleloaders that got me started in this hobby as well.
-Dave
Rev. Chase
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I got a chance to shoot Dave's Don Kammerer Hawken and was very impressed. It was quite heavy in the hand but became lighter in feel once it was shouldered. One of the loads I tried was 120g under a 54 cal round ball. It was a delight to shoot with little felt recoil compared to what I was expecting. Really and excellent rifle.
Dave
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I am enjoying this thread on Hawken rifles. I've had an on-again, off-again love affair with creating this particular rifle for about 50 years, and have purchased every piece of literature I could find on it, including Bob Woodfill's new book -= a good investment.
Like a lot of you, I started out too with a T/C "Hawken" rifle, mine a flint .50 cal, and I shot, hunted and enjoyed the rifle for many years. But as my experience and knowledge grew, I became disatisfied with the "cookie-cutter" factory rifle and wanted a more authentic rifle. So I began making muzzleloading rifles in a time when the Hawken was all the rage, and everyone, it seemed, wanted one. I built about a dozen for friends and in the late 70's was hired by a local gunsmith to create Hawken rifles in his shop. Over the next three years, we turned out around 180 Hawken rifles until finally, interest in it diminished to the point where I was laid off and the Hawken manufacture ceased. Since then, I have from time to time had requests for Hawken rifles and so have built a number. I even was able to keep one for myself, and it is my go to rifle for easy shooting accuracy, especially at longer ranges. Mine is a .62 cal and weighs over 11 pounds. It is quite true that during the first and second quarters of the 19th century, there were many gunsmiths cranking out plains rifles from the city of St. Louis, and the Hawken bros were just two of them. Even so, there was something special about the Hawken rifle that endeared it to the hearts of men of adventure, comparative wealth, and prestige, many of their names already appearing in posts above. And so the love affair continues to this day.
I'm going to try to post a picture of two rifles that I have built in the last ten years...hope I'm successful.
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Enjoyable thread. My first ever shooting experiences were with ml cap guns, a .45 Kentucky that I built from parts, second was a quasi Hawken, .58 cal 1 1/8 inch across the flats, also from parts. After a few years it was rebuilt into an underhammer. I shot monthly with a group called the Swamp Fox Muzzleloaders in Maysville, NC. Had a Remington 1858 repro and Ruger Old Army. Fun shooting. Killed a number of whitetails too during the short BP season, initially it was only 3 days but eventually became a week. Twice killed a pair from the same stand, once on a late morning and another time in the evening. Only killed one 8 pointer.
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Interesting thread
On a trip in 2012 I spent some time drooling in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron Nebraska - rows of original mountain man guns with their specs and ancestry .
Its a common enough misconception among a lot of BP shooters that the hawken (whatever that really is) was the weapon of choice for the mountain trappers .
If you took and put any of the modern day replica hawkens I ever saw up among those big ole guns - you woulda heard this whisper "git outa here kid - take that rabbit gun back home and let us adults deal with the bears and such"
My impression from that trip - its a flintlock - big heavy duty military style lock - barrel is at least 36 - 38 inch but not the 42inch plus of the eastern rifles - half or full stock - 58 to 62 calibre in the main (saw a couple 54's ) - gotta weigh at least ten pound from the look of them
I'm not a historian but what I saw made sense to me.