Author Topic: Substitutes  (Read 483 times)

Offline Tascosa Joe

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Substitutes
« on: August 15, 2022, 09:12:05 AM »
This is sort of in the dumb question arena.  I have been shooting BP since the mid '70s but the only substitute I have used is Pyrodex, and I after I figured out you could not make a flint lock go bang with it, I never used it again.  How much grunge do powders like Triple 7 and APP produce?
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Offline River City John

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2022, 12:03:13 PM »
More grunge with Triple 7 than APP.
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Offline Johnson Barr

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2022, 12:17:43 PM »
Triple 7 is designed for modern in-line muzzle loading rifles, the 209 primer type. Very hot in percussion pistols and cartridge conversions. APP comes closer for the same grain by volume charges of real black. Goex Pinnacle was produced by APP, the difference was that the Goex product was dyed black to more closely replicate real BP color. It is no longer available. The APP product is a grayish color. I still have a goodly store of the Goex that still shoots well and cleans up with ammonia based products like Windex and such cleaners. Way less corrosive  than the Pyrodex-rust-your-gun-crap!   
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Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2022, 09:57:44 PM »
APP really isn't bad in the grunge department. Triple 7 leaves a hard crusty stuff that is sort of hard to clean. I've only used the later in modern inline muzzle loaders. I shot quite a bit of APP a few years back because I got some essentially free and found I liked it far better than other subs. I remember feeling like I thought the APP was not as powerful as Pyrodex or real BP. That said I did not crony any loads, my assumption was merely based on recoil of the guns and the report on steel targets. Plenty fine for CAS.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2022, 11:06:45 PM »
APP definitely leaves less fouling in the bore than BP.  I have used some 777 in .38's for rifle some years back because it was easy to find locally.  777 in a .38 seemed to recoil about the same as FFFg BP in a .357 in that rifle.  APP is the most popular sub for good reason.  But hardly any stores carry it so usually you will have to mail order, then you get into hazmat, etc.  Natchez is carrying Shooter's World Multi-Black (made by APP for Shooter's World).  I finally ran out of the can of APP that I opened in 2013  :) so I added a few cans of Multi-Black to my Natchez order when I was ordering primers and other powder. :)

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #5 on: Today at 03:22:17 PM »

Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2022, 06:57:24 AM »
Thanks for the info.
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2022, 08:22:30 AM »

 :)  Joe   ;)

I'm just kinda sorta Piling On here.  Ya know, "Plays Well with Others" sort of thing.  I shoot a lot of APP.  Seriously a LOT of APP.  Easiest clean-up of any of the Propellants.  There are several other good points though.  APP requires no Lube.  At'z right.  No Lubes.  None. Nada. Zero. Zilch.  You can shoot Nudie Bullets all day.  If you happen to find you have a goodly pile of Smokeless Lubed bullets, just go shoot 'em.  APP don't care if there is Crayon Lube.  Great stuff.

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Offline Dave T

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2022, 09:51:21 AM »
I have a S&W 2000 Schofield. Looks pretty but will not shoot black powder. Cylinder locks up so solidly after 4 shots it can't be turned by hand, and I'm shooting Big Lube bullets. I had some Black MZ (Hodgdon's version of APP) left over from an experiment with 45 Colt and tried it in the Schofield. Got through 25 rounds without having to clean. When the can of Black MZ runs out I'll be buying APP from somewhere...or I will sell the Schofield.

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2022, 01:41:59 PM »

 :)  Dave T  ;)

I be your Huckleberry you betcha.  Black MZ is NOT dead.  Shooters World is now marketing Shooters World Multi Black. Natchez is carrying it.  Shooters World Multi Black is same same as Black MZ, made for Shooters World by the great folks at APP.  You can also get both from Scarlett at "Bullets bye Scarlett."  Rejoice amigo.  All is not lost.  Hang on to your Smitty.

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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2022, 10:21:51 AM »
I really appreciate the info.  An outfit near here has a Cimarron S&W American with an 8" barrel, my main reason for asking was if APP would run in that gun.  From all I gather the short answer is no with a very dim maybe.  ;D  Also I am thinking about getting some since I am about out of GOEX.  Anyway thanks to all yall.
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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #10 on: Today at 03:22:17 PM »

Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2022, 10:39:25 AM »
I guess I have one more question, do most of you run APP thru a standard powder measure on a progressive?  I know Coffin uses a Dillion, I have a Hornady A&P, that I have adapted a Hornady BP measure to work.  I also made a shell plate for it IOT reload .45 Schofield. 
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Offline River City John

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2022, 11:53:09 AM »
APP kept hanging up in my Lee powder dispenser, so I switched to hand dipped. This being 2FFG, though, in .38spcl cartridge.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2022, 02:28:26 PM »
T.J., the APP of old had a lot of fines and dust, which is hygroscopic, so there were stories of it gumming up and/or rusting powder measures if not cleaned out well after reloading.  I mostly dipped it, though I have run 3F APP through a Dillon powder measure with no problems.  I am told that APP, and the subs made by them for other companies, are much better these days about the dust.  I'm sure Coffinmaker can verify that.

Offline Roosterman

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Re: Substitutes
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2022, 03:19:04 PM »
I have a S&W 2000 Schofield. Looks pretty but will not shoot black powder. Cylinder locks up so solidly after 4 shots it can't be turned by hand, and I'm shooting Big Lube bullets. I had some Black MZ (Hodgdon's version of APP) left over from an experiment with 45 Colt and tried it in the Schofield. Got through 25 rounds without having to clean. When the can of Black MZ runs out I'll be buying APP from somewhere...or I will sell the Schofield.

Dave
That gun will shoot real BP. Just lube over the cylinder ends like you do a cap and ball revolver. You can shoot all day. Use crisco or wonderlube.
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