Why Swiss?

[Dai.S.Loe]

OK people I need enlightenment.

I have been building a long range rifle and have been advised that the best powder is Swiss.

This is in very limited supply here in NZ and last night I was informed that I can get some but at a price of

$100NZ ($70 US) a tin. I am assuming that a tin holds 1 lb. This makes it almost 4 times more expensive than the powder I use for my match pistols, rifle and shotgun.

Does this powder deserve this mark up. Is it that good that the price is justified.

Goex is about $30 a tin less.

I am asking you all to either convince me that the only way to go for real long range accuracy is Swiss, or conversely to enlighten me as to the use of other powders that are nearly as good. Most of the shooting I will be doing will be under the 500 yard mark but there will be fluuries to 1000 yard plus targets.

I ask this of you all on behalf of my wallet that already strains under the burden of supporting my addiction to the thunder, the flame and the roar of BP in my main match gear.

Thanks

Dai.

[Forty Rod]

I don't care how good it is, it ain't worth double.

I know folks who have racks of trophies who've never shot anything but Gearhart Owens/GOEX.

[Hell-Er High Water]

Dai,

You didn't say what caliber your rifle was in but here is what I have been using for years.  I load the 45-70 for match shooting out to 600 yards with the following.  GOEX, FFg powder, 66.0 grains.  Winchester cases, Federal 215 large rifle magnum primers, one (1) 0.060" card wad over the powder, one (1) newspaper wad between the card wad and the bullet base, a Lyman 457125 bullet cast from 20:1 alloy and sized 0.459" with SPG lube in all grooves.  This bullet weighs about 520 grains depending on the batch of alloy and all bullets from a given lot that are shot for matches are weighed to +/- 1/2 grain.  The overall cartridge length is 2.930" which leaves one groove outside the case.  This gives about 0.020" powder compression and the bullet just touches the rifling on my rifle.  With this load, in my rebarreled Remington Rolling Block rifle, I have won numerous long range competitions out to 600 yards.  The powder is dropped into the case through a 30" drop tube.  I have had excellent results with GOEX powder over the years and see no reason to change.  Before it was GOEX it was Dupont and then Gerhart-Owens (sp?); it all seems to have been basically the same.  I would definitely give GOEX a good try before going to another powder that costs as much as Swiss does in your neck of the woods.

I hope that this helps with your reloading.

HHW

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[44caliberkid]

Here in the U.S. I get Graf Brothers powder for $9.00 a pound, Swiss runs around $18 -21, when I can find it. But at that price I don't buy it often. I think you'll be OK with Goex.  Couldn't you get Chinease powder down there a lot cheaper?

[Dai.S.Loe]

... Couldn't you get Chinease powder down there a lot cheaper?

Chinese powder is what I use for my main match firearms. "Thundershot" is the name it is sold under here. Comes in Fg,FFg, FFFg and FFFFg. I tend to use the FFG for all my firearms.

It sells here for between $60-75 NZ a kilo (2.2 lbs)

The long range I will be shooting is 45-70, rebuilt Remington Rolling Block.

I will be a little more discerning with my loads when building up this rifles rounds as I would like to be able to consistantly hit the target.

 Hell-Er High Water

Thanks for the very valuable info. I'll be adding this to my files.

Dai.

[TAkaho kid]

Swiss is good stuff there is no doubt about that. However, givin the price you might want to try Schuetzen out of Germany or KIK. The big diffrence is in the ingredeints and the finishing. A can of Swiss has few fines and the grains size is very consistent in addition its very consistent from lot to lot and gives higher velocities (at least for me)  Again, you pay for this.

If you use the Chinese stuff or the KIK I would suggest getting a screen setup. (cal-graf?) this will help sort out the fines which will go a long way towards improving your shot to shot consistency.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

For folks looking to do long LONG range, duplex loads are what alot of shooters are using these days and having great success.

Speaking from personal experieince, I have used 777, Swiss, GOEX, Elephant, ...etc.

I have had the BEST success with good-ol Pyrodex "Select" and nice soft cast bullets. It measures REALLY well and has VERY CONSISTENT performance. (which is reallly what you are going after)

GOEX is also quite good these days. Better than it as 5 years ago, from what other have said.

GOEX "Cartridge" is what alot of shooters use now.

[Lars]

To provide a different perspective, from one that cannot do the long range stuff because of eyes and muscles.

Such shooting requires much more than just loads that will give suitably small groups, groups so small that they are not the limiting factor in your ability to shoot competitively. There is range estimation, how good your sights are for you, how well can you estimate the wind and correct for it, how steady can you hold, etc. ect. You would be smart to determine, if not already, just how well you hope to be able to shoot. Do you really want to try for the top, or, are you going to be happy with local shoots?

I have a shelf of medals from local and smaller shoots -- that tells you nothing of my loads, other than that they are not bad.

I hear lots of things that work well from friends that can do this shooting. There is lots of variation in what works well. There are some solid guidelines, including such things as really symmetrical bullets free from bubbles, softer rather than harder bullets, excellent match of bullet diameter to bore of individual gun, the right weight, etc. of bullet for your rifle, chambers really concentric to bores, excellent crowns, powder that leaves minimal and very soft powder fouling, excellent bullet lube, etc. etc. -- picky, picky, picky.

On the assumption that your gun and loads and your shooting ability meet the above, and probably some other things too, a remaining important criteria is VERY CONSISTANT muzzle velocites. That is where Swiss shines. Other powders may come close, especially if seived, or if from a batch that gives especially uniform results.

On the other hand, given the BPs on the local market there, as well as the experience of local shooters, what is already known to work well there? Is it really only Swiss? Do local shooters seive the Chinese BPs? Given that even Swiss has some variations from batch to batch and the other BPs common in USA have even greater batch to batch variations, you could buy the most highly touted power (other than Swiss) and still not realize really small groups. If you are not already getting quite good groups with what is available, why should Swiss be the right answer?

Lars

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Dai,

Long range BP shooting is a game of many variables, some to be eliminated, some to be understood, some to be coped with and a few to be mastered.  The selection of propellant manufacturer is one of these variables.  Swiss has a great reputation.  Always remember this though, many trophys, ribbons and acolades have been won by pards shooting powder other than Swiss.

Enjoy the sport, learn the variables and win a few ribbons.  Ain't freedom great?

DD-DLoS

[TAkaho kid]

If you have'nt found them already check out these folks:

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/

Some of the top BPCR shooters hang out here and will be more then glad to help you out. DD is right, there is more to it then just powder, however use the best powder you can afford and use what ever methods you can find  (screening, etc.) to make up the diffrence.

NRA sactioned BPCR Silhouette DOES NOT allow duplexing

The NRA BPCR Target Championships at Raton DO NOT allow duplexing. (STRAIGHT BLACK OR PYRODEX)

ALso, check the equipment list for the 2005 top finishers:
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/2004_Raton_What_The_Winners_Used.htm

As you can see Swiss is the perfered powder. But, as I said before. use what you can afford and find ways to compensate.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

an addendum to my previous post.

I shoot a Winchester model 1894 in 38-55, which is by no means the end all-be all of BPCR shooting...but, I did take a 134lb doe with it this fall at 75yards.

I can put 5 consecutive rounds into a 3-4" group (depending on how I am feeling that day) w/o any issues around fouling or such.
[I need more practice and just got a new sizer that I need to try...work work work work work...never ends]

I didn't mean to "put down' Swiss. It has hits followers and it also has its detractors. (there were rumours they were reducing shipments to artifically increase prices...nothing ever came of this to my knowledge)

I am stuck on Pyrodex Select as it works well in my rifle for me.

$70 (either USD or AUD) is allot of money to experiment with. BP shooting can become an expensive sport REALLY fast.
(lead, alloys, casting supplies, loading tools...etc)

Enjoy!!!