1873 uberti carbine lever rotating latch not able to latch

[Doug.38PR]

All ya need to remove the stuck case is a piece of 1/8th BRASS welding rod and a brain that works - hard to believe the fellers that cant think that simple - so we use easy outs and cleaning jags and all manner of difficult, complicated methods to do it

Gonna have to come back at some point to what it was that ruptured the case in the first place - specially after a season of running ok - that question needs a concrete answer. .............................   

That’s being discussed on another thread here actually.  It was me loading a JHP 240 gr .429 gr bullet with a light loading of unique.   I had some .44 240 gr HP on hand and I wanted to try to develop a safe load in .44-40 using saud bullets.  Didn’t work out.  No need to fuss at me, I’ve already done that myself as have several others in other thread.  Needless to say I won’t be doing this again

[Slamfire]

Hey Doug ,, experience is nothing more than " surviving our mistakes ",, we have all made'um .


 smoke'm if y'a got'm ,, Hootmix.

[greyhawk]

Hey Doug ,, experience is nothing more than " surviving our mistakes ",, we have all made'um .


 smoke'm if y'a got'm ,, Hootmix.

Ask how I know about getting stuck cases out ?? twernt from reading a book -x peer y ence is how
Luckily I did it in 92's so there was no lasting mechanical damage
First was an old 32/20 - good bore, tired action with excessive headspace and a sloppy chamber - 16 yrs old operator - cases broke on third or fourth reload.

Then many moons later I aquired a plentiful supply of red dot  (just cant resist it when people give me stuff - ten pounds of good powder - yummmy) - worked up a nice lively but safe load in a 357 Rossi using scrounged 38spl cases and a 148 grain roundnose (I filed a neat little flat on them for magazine feed so proly 140 grain? Then along came my long awaited LEE 158 grain flatpoint mold - made a heap of those - put the file away - loaded 50 with the exact same powder charge (its only ten grain heavier boolit she'll be right mate!) - so proceeded to blow my stump target away and on the second magazine ooooops she wont feed ! whats up here (I had thought it was extracting a little sticky) anyway one of those old 38 cases has come unstuck - but after a bit of scratching around I see the others all have a crease in em about halfway (turns out the chamber has a corresponding mark like a broken reamer or a chip under it cut a deeper groove in the chamber wall that didnt come out in the reaming) anyway the old cases were swelling into that little groove was the sticky extraction - but one had quit at the solid head -----I dont like red dot anymore - that load looked ok on paper - but I had kind of transposed across from 357 mag data .
I have formed a strong opinion that putting heavy boolits over fast powder could go from ok to blown up gun in pretty short order and its gonna be like steppnig off a cliff

So yeah most of us done something not so smart at some point           

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[Doug.38PR]

Ok.  Here we are less than a week from Halloween and the gun is still not back.   I checked with the gunsmith.  He called Uberti/Beretta and they said they are out of parts and are waiting on parts to be shipped from Italy.  They have no idea when that will happen.   

This gun could be gone until next Christmas if it comes back at all

[Doug.38PR]

Happy New Year...not so happy as the gun is still sitting at Uberti/BerettaUSA waiting for Italy to send parts for whatever needs to be fixed.  I miss my gun.

[Abilene]

 

Maybe some Italian warehouse worker will make a New Year's resolution to fill some old orders!

Good luck!

[Cliff Fendley]

Honestly at this point I might would just buy another gun and chalk that up to experience and follow the advice of never reloading without using pressure tested data. And when I ever did get the gun back you either have a second gun or at least maybe some parts depending on if they fix it.

I can't help but think they can't figure out what to do because it's likely obvious to someone that the gun was fired using a high pressure round or out of battery and probably has who knows what bent and needs replacing and can't explain that to Uberti as an actual defect warranty claim so someone will have to pay for it. It seems that someone would have relayed any information one way or the other by now though.

Honestly since it was not an honest warranty claim the gun should have not been sent to them. I mean it seemed pretty obvious to those of us on this board something out of the ordinary like an OOB or a high pressure round before you admitted it. Why couldn't your gunsmith see that, either he doesn't know much or doesn't want the confrontation that you messed up your gun and just sent it off to let Uberti be the bad guy to you.

Hopefully it works out for you.

[greyhawk]

Honestly at this point I might would just buy another gun and chalk that up to experience and follow the advice of never reloading without using pressure tested data. And when I ever did get the gun back you either have a second gun or at least maybe some parts depending on if they fix it.

I can't help but think they can't figure out what to do because it's likely obvious to someone that the gun was fired using a high pressure round or out of battery and probably has who knows what bent and needs replacing and can't explain that to Uberti as an actual defect warranty claim so someone will have to pay for it. It seems that someone would have relayed any information one way or the other by now though.

Honestly since it was not an honest warranty claim the gun should have not been sent to them. I mean it seemed pretty obvious to those of us on this board something out of the ordinary like an OOB or a high pressure round before you admitted it. Why couldn't your gunsmith see that, either he doesn't know much or doesn't want the confrontation that you messed up your gun and just sent it off to let Uberti be the bad guy to you.

Hopefully it works out for you.

Cliff - you wrote that well and I agree -

[Cliff Fendley]

What caused the ruptured case to begin with? Maybe whatever caused the ruptured case bent the lever, or pins, or damaged the toggles.

Or was it a new gun and always out of spec, I've had two recently that came from Uberti with incorrect headspacing?

As Coffinmaker said it's a WAG without looking at it. Hopefully they get it fixed for you.

greyhawk, thanks I kind of hated to be so blunt but at this point the thread is almost just a waste of bandwidth.

I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings but we know what happened and I couldn't blame Uberti if they said they wouldn't fix it for fear of liability not knowing what unseen damage or stress that the gun could have.

This is my quote from last April that you and the OP even quoted. The OP said bought new and worked great until this happened. It wasn't until a few posts later he admitted he was "working up" a load and as a result the ruptured case and as I said in the above post what caused the ruptured case also obviously did a lot more damage.

I completely understand it's an embarrassing and unfortunate incident but you don't put bad gas in a car and expect the manufacture to replace the engine. Uberti and most gun manufactures clearly state reloads void the warranty and this thread is an example of the very reason.

[Doug.38PR]

Honestly at this point I might would just buy another gun and chalk that up to experience and follow the advice of never reloading without using pressure tested data. And when I ever did get the gun back you either have a second gun or at least maybe some parts depending on if they fix it.

I can't help but think they can't figure out what to do because it's likely obvious to someone that the gun was fired using a high pressure round or out of battery and probably has who knows what bent and needs replacing and can't explain that to Uberti as an actual defect warranty claim so someone will have to pay for it. It seems that someone would have relayed any information one way or the other by now though.

Honestly since it was not an honest warranty claim the gun should have not been sent to them. I mean it seemed pretty obvious to those of us on this board something out of the ordinary like an OOB or a high pressure round before you admitted it. Why couldn't your gunsmith see that, either he doesn't know much or doesn't want the confrontation that you messed up your gun and just sent it off to let Uberti be the bad guy to you.

Hopefully it works out for you.

That gun costs $1200.  And it was a gift.  No way am I going to run out and buy another.  

I didn’t send it as a warranty repair, I just said to get the case removed (whatever the cost) and the gunsmith sent it off and they accepted it as a warranty repair.   It came back with the case out but also came back with the lever or bolt not going completely into battery (i believe that was their mistake when they had it to get the case out because it was not like that whrn I sent it off).  

[Cliff Fendley]

It came back with the case out but also came back with the lever or bolt not going completely into battery (i believe that was their mistake when they had it to get the case out because it was not like that whrn I sent it off).  

Ok you admitted to using an untested load and ruptured the case, now it comes back with incorrect headspacing but was fine before. The headspacing in a 73 doesn't just change, it's a big deal to change it and requires machining and or replacing parts. Not like some kind of adjustment they can get off just removing a case unless they had some fool completely cut and rechamber the barrel trying to clean it up. It seems really doubtful Uberti did anything to change the headspacing just removing a ruptured case unless they replaced a barrel or other major part. The ruptured case incident more likely damaged the action of your gun.

How could you know it wasn't like that when you sent the gun to have the ruptured case removed if a case was stuck in the chamber?

Good luck with it they have already done more than they should be required under warranty, kudos to Uberti on that.

[Doug.38PR]

Ok you admitted to using an untested load and ruptured the case, now it comes back with incorrect headspacing but was fine before. The headspacing in a 73 doesn't just change, it's a big deal to change it and requires machining and or replacing parts. Not like some kind of adjustment they can get off just removing a case unless they had some fool completely cut and rechamber the barrel trying to clean it up. It seems really doubtful Uberti did anything to change the headspacing just removing a ruptured case unless they replaced a barrel or other major part. The ruptured case incident more likely damaged the action of your gun.

How could you know it wasn't like that when you sent the gun to have the ruptured case removed if a case was stuck in the chamber?

Good luck with it they have already done more than they should be required under warranty, kudos to Uberti on that.

Because even with the ruptured case in the chamber, i could still work the lever and action and everything lined up as it shouldup until the time I sent it off the first time.  The bolt went all the way into battery and the lever end lined up perfectly with the locking latch on the underside of the buttstock.   When it came back the first time, that was not the case. 

I went into this expecting to pay to have the gun fixed once I realized I could not get the case out myself.   They decided to take it as a warranty fix to simply remove the case and polish the chamber.  I still don’t mind paying for it if need be.  I’m not asking for a free meal or favor.  But if they want to be generous, I appreciate it.

And if you’ll recall, I was actually not trying to “work up” a load, quite the contrary I was trying to “work down” a load.  Either I didn’t download enough or underloaded for a weight/type of bullet not designed for the thin case of the .44-40.   But I don’t believe it was anything that should stress the frame or action.    When I fired it, it felt like nothing, I didn’t even realize there was anything wrong until I ejected and realized I only got the case end.   (These frames and actions can shoot .357 and even .44 Magnum now)

Had I been able to get that cartridge out myself from home, I’m quite certain I would still be shooting it today.   

Needless to say, lesson learned, I won’t be trying anything outside what the manuals recommend for specific rounds by crossreferencing.

Stick to good ol 200-225 gr bullets

[greyhawk]

Because even with the ruptured case in the chamber, i could still work the lever and action and everything lined up as it shouldup until the time I sent it off the first time.  The bolt went all the way into battery and the lever end lined up perfectly with the locking latch on the underside of the buttstock.   When it came back the first time, that was not the case. 

I went into this expecting to pay to have the gun fixed once I realized I could not get the case out myself.   They decided to take it as a warranty fix to simply remove the case and polish the chamber.  I still don’t mind paying for it if need be.  I’m not asking for a free meal or favor.  But if they want to be generous, I appreciate it.

And if you’ll recall, I was actually not trying to “work up” a load, quite the contrary I was trying to “work down” a load.  Either I didn’t download enough or underloaded for a weight/type of bullet not designed for the thin case of the .44-40.   But I don’t believe it was anything that should stress the frame or action.    When I fired it, it felt like nothing, I didn’t even realize there was anything wrong until I ejected and realized I only got the case end.   (These frames and actions can shoot .357 and even .44 Magnum now)

Had I been able to get that cartridge out myself from home, I’m quite certain I would still be shooting it today.   

Needless to say, lesson learned, I won’t be trying anything outside what the manuals recommend for specific rounds by crossreferencing.

Stick to good ol 200-225 gr bullets

Doug
I followed this most of the way - for me the major message is the ''gunsmith'' you sent to originally is incompetent in the extreme - getting a broken case out of a 44/40 is simple work - I posted pictures and all right on this forum - most of the blokes here ignored it - they had their own methods with stuck case extractors and easy outs and bla bla - I guess my little simple deal was too easy to be comprehended - lead a horse to water but cant make him drink eh. No idea what that bloke did to your gun but something messed up big time.   

[Cliff Fendley]

Any way you put it the gun has a big headspace problem and it's very doubtful they did it when it was sent in to get the ruptured case removed. They would have had to actually cut the back of the barrel and rechamber it to change the headspace. You can't just put the parts together wrong and change it the amount you are speaking of. If all they did was get out the broken casing and re polish the chamber then they would have had to gotten really carried away if they actually changed the headspacing. I'm not saying its not possible but you would hope Uberti has someone more qualified than that doing service for them.

Provided they don't have a complete idiot gunsmith working for them either the ruptured case incident bent/damaged something or the gun always had a headspace issue that never showed up with normal loads until the particular load in suspicion pushed the envelope so to speak and ruptured the case because of the extra headspace.

I guess any of it is possible, the reason I work on my own guns. I'm no gunsmith but from some of the things I've seen come from gunsmiths tells me my limited experience of machining and mechanicing over the course of my years has me more qualified than most gunsmiths work that I have seen. When I comes down to it guns are all extremely simple mechanisms compared to about anything else I work on and these guns are about as simple as it gets, the design dates back over 150 years.

[Doug.38PR]

Doug
I followed this most of the way - for me the major message is the ''gunsmith'' you sent to originally is incompetent in the extreme - getting a broken case out of a 44/40 is simple work - I posted pictures and all right on this forum - most of the blokes here ignored it - they had their own methods with stuck case extractors and easy outs and bla bla - I guess my little simple deal was too easy to be comprehended - lead a horse to water but cant make him drink eh. No idea what that bloke did to your gun but something messed up big time.   

The “gunsmiths” answer to me for not getting the case out himself was that he did not have the extractor part (that you supposedly can order off Brownells) so he sent it to Uberti.   “Oh well”, says I,”whatever we’ve got to do to get this done”.    Although, like you, I was surprused he couldn’t find some other method him being a gunsmith and expert with a shop of his own with all the tools and nick nacks at his disposal.   
What irked me a tad was when it initially came back and I had to find out myself in the backyard that something else was now wrong with it take it back to him and show him (didn’t he test the gun when he got it back? To make double sure the gun was right for the customer?).  So he sent it back.   
Was it you that said in my initial post?:  “if your gunsmith let you walk out with your rifle in that condition, your gunsmith is incompetent.”

I’m trying to be generous with the guy.  And He us the only gunsmith in our little town that I know of that has any kind of good reputation.  I though he’d have been able to handle this.  But if he couldn’t I figured the factory should.  Wrong on both counts I guess. 

[Doug.38PR]

Any way you put it the gun has a big headspace problem and it's very doubtful they did it when it was sent in to get the ruptured case removed. They would have had to actually cut the back of the barrel and rechamber it to change the headspace. You can't just put the parts together wrong and change it the amount you are speaking of. If all they did was get out the broken casing and re polish the chamber then they would have had to gotten really carried away if they actually changed the headspacing. I'm not saying its not possible but you would hope Uberti has someone more qualified than that doing service for them.

Provided they don't have a complete idiot gunsmith working for them either the ruptured case incident bent/damaged something or the gun always had a headspace issue that never showed up with normal loads until the particular load in suspicion pushed the envelope so to speak and ruptured the case because of the extra headspace.

I guess any of it is possible, the reason I work on my own guns. I'm no gunsmith but from some of the things I've seen come from gunsmiths tells me my limited experience of machining and mechanicing over the course of my years has me more qualified than most gunsmiths work that I have seen. When I comes down to it guns are all extremely simple mechanisms compared to about anything else I work on and these guns are about as simple as it gets, the design dates back over 150 years.

I’m told Uberties tend to have a low headspace.  But how are you so certain this is a headspace issue?  (Or the fault of the gun)  The gun has breezed through a few hundred rounds of 200 gr lead hardcast bullets and their cartridges have completely gone into battery and fired several times without any problems. 

[Cliff Fendley]

I’m told Uberties tend to have a low headspace.  But how are you so certain this is a headspace issue?  (Or the fault of the gun)  The gun has breezed through a few hundred rounds of 200 gr lead hardcast bullets and their cartridges have completely gone into battery and fired several times without any problems. 

Read your reply number #7. That's how we know it's a headspace issue.

I personally own two 73's that had too tight of headspace when I got them, one I fixed myself and the other was sent to Cimarron to cut and rechamber the barrel. I've also owned original 73's with two loose of headspace from years of wear that had to be corrected. I know what it takes to change the headspace and that's why I'm so doubtful they did it just removing a shell casing.

It sounds like you had case head separation on the casing which could be caused by a high pressure round but many times it's a sign of excessive headspace. That might be why Uberti took it as a warranty repair. But if that's the case they should have been looking to close up the headspace not make it wider and only a moron wouldn't know that.

The puzzling part is why you never had any trouble until you work working with the questionable loads and now the gun is all messed up. See where I'm coming from?

[Doug.38PR]

Read your reply number #7. That's how we know it's a headspace issue.

I personally own two 73's that had too tight of headspace when I got them, one I fixed myself and the other was sent to Cimarron to cut and rechamber the barrel. I've also owned original 73's with two loose of headspace from years of wear that had to be corrected. I know what it takes to change the headspace and that's why I'm so doubtful they did it just removing a shell casing.

It sounds like you had case head separation on the casing which could be caused by a high pressure round but many times it's a sign of excessive headspace. That might be why Uberti took it as a warranty repair. But if that's the case they should have been looking to close up the headspace not make it wider and only a moron wouldn't know that.

The puzzling part is why you never had any trouble until you work working with the questionable loads and now the gun is all messed up. See where I'm coming from?

Yes.

But they important point is: my entire comment in #7 didn’t start happening until AFTER i got the gun back the first time after the factory having removed the case.  Prior to that, it was functioning as it should and, as you just noted, without any problems.

In any case:  I just wantbthen gun fixed correctly and returned.   Via warranty or my own pocket.  I woukd think the factory would know how to do that more than anybody...but...

[Cliff Fendley]

Yes.

But they important point is: my entire comment in #7 didn’t start happening until AFTER i got the gun back the first time after the factory having removed the case.  Prior to that, it was functioning as it should and, as you just noted, without any problems.

In any case:  I just wantbthen gun fixed correctly and returned.   Via warranty or my own pocket.  I woukd think the factory would know how to do that more than anybody...but...

Exactly! That's exactly what I said, it all started (or showed up) after the case was ruptured or possibly when the case ruptured causing the case to rupture to begin with, when you were by your own admittance using untested load data.

Case head separation is many times a sign of excessive headspace but you never had the problem before using those rounds. The round that failed didn't even have to cause it some of the previous rounds as you were working down might have caused some damage allowing that one to fail if something got bent and created the excessive headspace.

[greyhawk]

Exactly! That's exactly what I said, it all started (or showed up) after the case was ruptured or possibly when the case ruptured causing the case to rupture to begin with, when you were by your own admittance using untested load data.

Case head separation is many times a sign of excessive headspace but you never had the problem before using those rounds. The round that failed didn't even have to cause it some of the previous rounds as you were working down might have caused some damage allowing that one to fail if something got bent and created the excessive headspace.

Cliff
(this is not a challenge just looking for ideas / wanting to know more)
What would bend in a 73 to cause the problem ? Lever hanging down or not latching up properly
I bent a brass frame gun once - couldnt believe it - I was dismantling a 22 magnum Uberti 66 - had the side plates off it and the stock wouldnt come loose - I gave the point of the comb a bump down and back with the heel of my hand to loosen it (not a tough guy and dont think I hit it that hard, thought nothing of it at the time) - after I re assembled it the bolt was binding as it cycled - had been fine before - nothing else could have done it only that whack I gave it and no sideplates to support the action frame - I got the rifle freed up and cycling good enough to sell - got a 22RF to replace it and still have that as my snake gun. Have seen a 44/40 brasser that I bet bent the same from hot loads - bolt binding.
So a bent 73 ? would you expect the lever bent or the frame stretched at the top or what ?
The couple of pictures of 1876 overloads that blew up its been the bottom of the chamber gone out.