KISS formula for minimum BP loads. I'm not talkin' subs here.

[Dick Dastardly]

Caliber times 4/10 equals grains of Black Powder required for a minimum BP powder charge.  ie. (38 X 0.4 = 15.2 grains BP)  or (45 X 0.4 = 18 grains BP).

Filler to be added to yield a compressed load. This formula will provide safe, low recoil, easily manageable and easily quantifiable loads for BP main match CAS ammo.  Since filler does not MIX with BP in a compressed BP load, a pulled bullet chosen at random would easily be checked for a minimum BP charge.

This is a formula that would work with ANY SASS legal main match gun to produce fine BP SASS main match ammo.

DD-DLoS

FWIW, I copied this from my "Open Range" thread.  If you've seen it before, thanks for lookin' again.

[Bull Schmitt]

Howdy Dick,

That is a clever solution for those who want lighter loads.

Personally when one of my BP load goes off I want ladies to faint, little girls to wet their knickers, little boys to go "WOW!, and everyone else to "duck and cover". 

[Grizzle Bear]

I'm with Bull....

When I shoot, I want the sheriff in the next county to say "What the f%$# was that!?"

Grizzle Bear

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[Paladin UK]

Fer Bull........

Ya done got me rollin on the floor with that answer!!!

Paladin (Whats still laughin`  ) UK

[44caliberkid]

What are "reduced loads" and why would anyone want to shoot them?

  Dick, you confuse me, you're either packin' the cylinder with as much 4F as it will hold, or speculating about making a mouse fart black powder.  Get off the fence.

 Just kiddin' bro.

[Lars]

Seth,

The simple answer to truly excellent 44-40 BP loads has been with us for a very long time. One such load is 33,0 grains weight of Swiss FFg, CCI350 primer, Starline or Remington cases, Lyman 427098 bullet cast in pure lead, 20:1 Pb:Sn or some intermediate alloy, sized to 0,427, 0,428, or 0,429 (as your rifle needs), lubed with SPG or equally good lube. That load is only 3-4 inches high at 50 yards when zeroed at 100 yards. Five shot groups should be no larger than 4,0 inches at 100 yards, or 2,0 inches at 50 yards. With good eyes and excellent sights, expect groups 1/2 that size.

The above gives precisely the performance of the original Winchester factory BP load for 44-40. That ammo can be purchased again today from Republic Metallic Cartridge Co.

The answer is NOT with reduced loads, except for some VERY precisely made up loads.

Lars

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho the fire,

Lars has the recipe for a fine round, I'm sure.  I wasn't looking for the most accurate possible load here.  I was suggesting a way to have a minimum load that would respect the choice of caliber for main match SASS matches.

The fact that this often produces the most accurate load is no accident.  Lyman, Hodgdon and others frequently suggest loads very near to these charges of BP.  The use of Swiss is a matter of preference.  Swiss is a fine powder but very accurate loads have been, and will continue to be made up from Black Powder from other manufacturers.

To pick one powder and lay claim to the greatest accuracy is a fools path.  To single out one powder and make claims against it is another fools path.  Either leads to the revelation that truth does not conform to any single preference.  Soon enough, with diligent study, the compitent reloader discovers that each of his guns will speek to him and let it's preference be known.  It is not frequently true that any one load, bullet, case, primer or combination thereof will  yield the most universally accurate or consistant velocity for any given gun of that calibert.  If, by coincidence, a load is found on this, or any other wire that gives immediate supurb accuracy, count yourself as lucky and use that load to work from in developing the absolute best load for your gun.

Enjoy the smoke.

DD-DLoS

[Lars]

Humm, I seem to remember a number of situations where a VERY superior load was developed, one that shot extremely well in a large variety of guns chambered for it. It may not have been the absolute best in each and every gun but it was widely accepted as a VERY superior load. The loads I remember were generally specific to bullet, amount and type of powder, hull, primer -- some were National Match loads, some SOP bench rest loads, some live pigeon loads, etc. NONE of those loads used inferior components. That 44-40 load has all the earmarks/performances of such loads. One cannot substitute inferior components and acheive the same results. Such VERY superior loads are the very real property of all shooters, especially those shooters that recognize their quality. Their recipies are not secret, nor are the reasons for their superior performance.

Those that want to denigrate the use of loads giving premium performance are quite welcome to go their own ways. I will stick with or closely to the premium loads, Thank You!!.

Lars

[Lars]

Seth,

On the assumption that you have correctly identified the problem as your rifle shooting way high with more-or-less standard velocity BP loads, then I would agree completely that something needs be done to the sights.

Couple of questions: 1) does the gun also shoot way high with standard SAAMI velocity nitro loads? and 2) any indication that someone has altered or changed out the original sights?

In my experience, standard velocity BP loads shoot close to the same POI as standard velocity nitro loads. For example, in recent testing both my Ruger 44-40 and Rossi 92 44-40 shot into the same groups with the Swiss FFg load, Hodgdon's  777 FFg load, and nitro loads with 2400 or Blue dot(both Hodgdon loads) , each load with a different 200 grain 0,429 bullet with different lubes. All are booked as standard velocity loads. Ranges were 25 and 50 yards with the revolver and 50 yards with the rifle.

I can and do get different POIs, sometimes greatly so, when I deviate from standard velocity loads in these guns. This is especially true with low velocity loads and with much higher than SAAMI loads.

Lars

[44caliberkid]

Seth, I'm using a Uberti 66 in 44-40, which is close to being the same rifle.  Firing smokeless, it hits about 10 inches above POA at 50 yards and is about 18 inches high at 100.  My BP load of 200 grain Mav-Dutch bullet over 35 grains (by volume) of Goex Cowboy, hits a tad lower than the smokeless cowboy loads.  It's only about a foot high at 100.
  I would definitely print your smokeless load to make sure where it's hitting. Don't compare apples and oranges till you try the apples. I haven't been able to find a taller front sight, been thinking about shaving down the top of the rear blade.  For CAS distances I've found that a six oclock hold always results in a hit.  If the target is 50 yards or more (rarely) I just aim at the post the target hangs on, about 2-3 inches below the target.