1878 catalog

[hhughh]

I've seen references on here to the May 1, 1878 catalog listing a "long range" cartridge for the 45-75.  I just purchased a reprint of that catalog, but I can't find the details of such a cartridge.  Can anyone tell me specifically where and how it was listed?

Thanks,
Hugh

[Joe Lansing]

    This has been discussed before. I believe it was loaded with 90gr of powder and the bullet seated out (because of the space taken up by the powder) and could only be loaded singly in the chamber due to the increased over-all length of the cartridge. 

                                                         J.L.

[hhughh]

Joe,
  Thanks for the reply.  I've read the description of the round.  But I have the catalog and can't find it.  I'm trying to see if my "reprint" is a "misprint", I guess.

Thanks
Hugh

[Advertising]

[hhughh]

Ok, I have a followup question now.  I purchased a copy of the Houze book and it arrived today.  Looking at the picture, caption, etc.  It indicates that it is on "page 41" of the "May 1, 1878" catalog.  In my "reprint" (circa 1966) of the May 1, 1878, catalog, page 41 is in the ammunition section, but it's a page of rimfire cartridges, beginning with .46 Short.  The centerfire section starts a couple of pages later, and only lists the 45-75 for the 1876.  Can anyone help with the reason for the differences?

Thanks,
Hugh

[Joe Lansing]

    The 45-75 was the original offering. The other calibers trickled in later, most likely after the 1878 catalog. A little research should provide the dates of the other cartridges.

                                                         J.L.

[Buck Stinson]

If you are relying on ANY of Houze's books for accurate information, you're spit'in in the wind.  I recently talked to a friend of mine about the .45-75 Long Range cartridge.  He wrote the book on Winchester cartridges and cartridge boxes.  He told me that he has seen only a handful of these cartridges and that they do not have any WRACO. headstamp.  It was listed only in one of three catalogs printed in 1878 and to date, no boxes in this caliber have ever surfaced. 

[hhughh]

Thanks, Buck.  Do you happen to have a copy of the catalog that did list this round?  And, if so, could you provide me with its date?

Thanks again,
Hugh

[Buck Stinson]

I do not have a copy, but I think I know where to find one.  Will let you know.

[hhughh]

What I'm looking for is primary evidence (Winchester's actual suggestions in catalogs, advertisements, etc.) that the '76 could be loaded and used as a single-shot weapon.  Houze shows the cut from p. 41 of some catalog, and on the top of his page 125, Houze writes "...the earliest advertisements for the Model 1876 noted that it could be employed as a single-shot target rifle using the...45-90-500 Long Range cartridge..."
All due respect to Buck's evaluation of Houze's knowledge--I know too little to comment one way or another.
But, again, I'm looking for the original verbiage from Winchester, and can't seem to find it.  Would love to hear from someone who has such a reference.

Thanks again,
Hugh

[Buck Stinson]

If are asking whether the 1876 Winchester in .45-75 could be used as a single shot with the long range ammunition, the answer is yes.   However, this ammunition was not designed to be chambered and fed via the magazine tube.  If you load a .45-75 cartridge case with a 500 grain bullet, seated out far enough to load 90 grains of powder, you can certainly feed that round into the chamber from the top of the action just as you would any single shot rifle. 

[hhughh]

No, Buck; that's not what I'm asking.  I know it could be done, apparently was done, at least on a limited basis, in original '76s.  What I'm trying to find is the Winchester Company's actual statements it could be done and suggesting it.  I know that that exists as well, but I have never seen it, only references to it by Houze and members of this forum.  I have a sincere reason for the specific interest, and when I actually have it, I will enlighten the forum or anyone interested.

Thanks,
Hugh

[Buck Stinson]

I think you're asking a question that can be answered in the last paragraph at the bottom of page 111 in Houzes book.   This is the only mention Winchester ever made regarding this cartridge.   Houze copied this info from the John E. Parsons book "The First Winchester" written and published in 1955.  (Houze never mentioned this in his footnotes.)  At any rate, the catalog date of May 1st that Houze gives on page 124, is not correct.  The .45-75 Long Range cartridge is mentioned and appears ONLY in the March 1st, 1878 catalog.  By the May issue of that same year, this cartridge and any mention of it had been dropped from all Winchester advertising literature.  With a life span of only two months at the most, coupled with the fact that the only advertisment for this cartridge didn't even list the price, it is extremely doubtful that more than a handful of the 20 round boxes were ever manufactured.

[hhughh]

Buck,
   Thank you so much.  That clarifies the matter.  Now I have to find the March 1, 1878 catalog.  The fog lifts, and the quest continues. 

Now I understand your statements about Houze.

Hugh

[Buck Stinson]

I have checked with some of my friends who collect Winchesters and catalogs.  None of them have ever seen the March 1st 1878 catalog, but they all agree that Winchester did print one.  Several years ago a man by the name of George Hoyum, who lives right here in Missoula, gathered together all the catalogs issued by Winchester from 1865 to 1918 and set them in 12 hard bound volumes.   I believe the printing was limited to 400 sets.  After an exaustive search, the only 1878 catalog George located was the May 1st issue.  I doubt that Parsons ever actually saw the March 1st edition.  He most likely got that information from documents still held at that time by the Winchester factory offices.  If you ever find that catalog or a reprint, please let me know. 

[Cimarron]

Buck, thanks for all of the excellent information on this.  In regard to your earlier statements about Houze, I agree completely.  I bought his book hoping it would shead some light on the development of the 1876.  It did that but it doesn't cover the subject as deeply as one might like.  When you point out the error in the document citation on the "long range" cartridge it makes me skeptical about the rest of the book.

[Joe Lansing]

    Re. the long rang cartridges: the story I remember was that a customer asked Winchester to make them up, and Winchester put them in the catalog, presumably to see if there was a market for them.

                                                         J.L.

[hhughh]

Buck,
   Does the "cut" apparently being lifted from the orig. catalog, albeit Mar and not May, suggest that there is one of these that one "expert" or the other managed to get their hands on?

[Buck Stinson]

If you go back to Houzes book and look at the catalog cut in question, you'll see that he attributes it to the Olin Corporation, which of course is the company who manufactures Winchester ammunition.  My guess is that IF the March 1878 catalog exists, they have it in their archives.  One other interesting note is the fact that when I compare both Houzes cut and the one Parsons used in his book back in '55, they are the same and I mean exactly the same.  They match blemish for blemish and stain for stain.  With this in mind, one might be right in saying that Houze copied the image from Parsons book.  Last but not least, just because Parsons and Houze used this cut, doesn't in any way mean that Olin Corporation had the complete (or incomplete) March 1878 catalog.  No one has seen the March 1878 catalog to verify wheather it still exists or not.  It could be that Olin had only a full or partial page from that catalog.   Your guess is as good as mine.  Remember, this is one of the rarest of all Winchester catalogs and I seriously doubt that more than a handfull were ever printed.  The next issue (May 1878) superseeded the March issue by only two months.  How often do you keep a catalog that has been outdated by a newer issue?