Spencer 1865 carbine serial number and name ...help

[SEA3PO]

I own Spencer 7484 carbine....it has a brass name tag on it that says  G. Remmel  ...  Could you give he some direction in finding out who this guy was... when or where the carbine was originally issued..

Thanks.....

SEA3PO

[Two Flints]

WOW SEA3PO

I have an exact match for your Spencer Carbine looking at my serial # records.

Serial # 7484 - Spencer Carbine 1860 was issued to a member of Company G, 11th Ohio Volunteer Cavalry on or about 8-21-63.

You might try doing a Google search for the 11th Ohio Volunteer Cavalry, Co. G, and see if they give you a member with that name G. Remmel.

Go to this link:  http://www.ohiocivilwar.com/books.html  scroll down and see the regimental history book on the 11th Ohio Cav. available for purchase.

Two Flints

[Two Flints]

Also found this..."During the first week of June 1862, the troops from Company D, 6th O.V.C. began establishing an outpost near Guinard’s bridge. Soldiers spent much of the summer repairing the telegraph line damaged by raiding Shoshone, Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho. The raiding was so successful that on July 11, 1862, the Postmaster General of the United States ordered all mail carriers to abandon this portion of the route in favor of the Overland Trail through southern Wyoming.

By the end of 1862, Platte Bridge Station had taken shape. On October 27, Captain Peter Van Winkle reported that he had 28 men, completed quarters and stabling, and rations to last until April. On November 1, Van Winkle reported three officers and 60 men for duty, two on detached service, one sick, three absent sick, and four awaiting discharge. He had 62 serviceable horses.

In July 1863, Collins organized a Second Battalion of Ohio Volunteer Cavalry consisting of Companies E, F, G, and H. The State of Ohio consolidated it with the first battalion to form the 11th Ohio Volunteer Cavalry. Because his regiment was 50 men short when he recruited the new companies in 1863, Collins gave Confederate prisoners of war a chance to join. Men enlisted in this manner were known as "Galvanized Yankees." By October 10, the troops arrived at their new posts.
 
Companies A, B, C, and D of the 11th O.V.C. were scheduled to muster out at Omaha, Nebraska, in April 1865. To fill the gap, the 11th Kansas Volunteer Cavalry was sent out. The Kansas troops arrived in the area April 19 and established regimental headquarters about six miles from Platte Bridge Station at a temporary tent camp called Camp Dodge. Additional reinforcements in the region included members of both the 3rd and 6th U.S. Volunteer Infantry Regiments, made up of “Galvanized Yankees.”


In response to the 1864 Sand Creek Massacre of Black Kettle’s Cheyenne by Colonel Chivington’s militia in Colorado Territory, Plains tribes increased raids along the trails the following spring. In July 1865, Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho gathered to attack Platte Bridge Station. On July 26, Lieutenant Caspar Collins led a small detachment from Platte Bridge Station to escort an army supply train traveling from Sweetwater Station. Less than a mile from the bridge, Collins’ men were ambushed and had to fight their way back to the fort. Five soldiers including Collins were killed in the Battle of Platte Bridge. Sergeant Amos Custard and 24 men with the supply wagons were attacked later that day five miles west of the fort. Only three soldiers survived the Battle of Red Buttes.

On October 26, new troops from Company A, C, F, and G of the 6th West Virginia Volunteer Cavalry arrived at Platte Bridge Station. The October post return for 1865 reported the following troops on duty: nine officers and 82 men of the 6th West Virginia, two officers and 149 men of the 11th Ohio, and three officers and 11 men of the 6th Infantry.

 

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[Two Flints]

also, go to this link:  http://www.historynet.com/lieutenant-casper-collins-fighting-the-odds-at-platte-bridge.htm 

Read the battle summary of Platte Bridge Station.  Spencers were used in this battle...maybe yours

Two Flints

[Arizona Trooper]

Is that an M-1860 or M-1865? An M-1860 with that number ought to be a rifle. M-1865 carbines in that range would have been been delivered in June or July of 1865, too late to be at Platte Bridge Station. Most M-1865s sat in storage until sold off as surplus. There are a lot of beautiful, almost new M-1865s because of that. A lot were issued to the post war regular cavalry. The 7th had theirs up to the mid 1870s, even though the company closed in 1869. Many more went to western militia units, teamsters, settlers and so on. Thousands went to France for the Franco-Prussian War. Unfortunately, the regular army didn't keep serial number records, so it's anybody's guess who a particular gun would have been issued to, if anyone. The 10th Cav. marked their guns on the buttstocks fairly consistently. Other units did when there was a problem with them walking off, but it wasn't an Army policy. G. Remmel is most likely the guy that bought it surplus.

[Two Flints]

Hi Arizona Trooper,

Double checked my serial # 7484 - 1860 Spencer Carbine - issued in 08-21-1863  dates seem to work and it may have been at Platte Bridge Station, unless I'm missing something. 

Two Flints

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

See my source for my carbine reference for #7484, below:



Thanks,

Two Flints
 

[SEA3PO]

Yep... it's a nice 1865 Carbine.... I am in Reno until the weekend...but will send pictures just as soon as I get home on the weekend... the carbine has about a half dozen nice brass inlays... and excellent markings.... 

I am an archeologist working on a massacre site where a Spencer carbine was used to kill 30 indians.... this is a unknown site...and I am locating the shooters positions by tracing their projectile traces..(three shooters)...back to the stacks of expended brass.....  I have been working on this project for three years....and will use the Spencer in my presentation of the massacre events... 

I am converting the carbine to centerfire so that I can recreate those shots to get a feel for what was going on that day...

Joel Rapose
SEA3PO
Chester  California

[SEA3PO]

Wow... that's neat...what is that other set of numbers on the page....the 082163 

Thanks

SEA3PO

[Two Flints]

Wow... that's neat...what is that other set of numbers on the page....the 082163

08 = August

21 = 21st day

63 = 1863 

[SEA3PO]

The serial number is real clear....but so is the barrel marking...m1865... I wonder if this could have been an arsenal rebarrel to make it 56-50 ? 

SEA3PO

[SEA3PO]

OK.... I looked up Stabler Cut-off using our search mode and found a good picture of what one is.....and yes it has a Stabler Cutt-off.....so now what   it must be a true m1965 carbine...

I  looked at it again, HARD.....and that serial number is definately 7484 bright and clear... so how could that be  

SEA3PO

[Two Flints]

According to one source that I have..."in June of 1866, the 11th Ohio stationed at Fort Leavenworth had on hand 27 Spencer Rifles, 3 Merrill Rifles, 33 Joslyn Carbines, AND 118 Spencer Carbines... Between July 18, 1866 & June 1869, 9,778 Spencer Carbines were repaired at the Springfield Armory.  The Stabler Cutoff was added to Spencer Repeaters refinished at the Springfield Armory".

SEA3PO, Perhaps, your Spencer Carbine was in use as indicated in the earlier posts of this thread and maybe it was returned to the Springfield Armory for repair/refinish work.  I'm adding the following paragraph as support taken from Dusan P. Farrington's book, Arming & Equipping the United States Cavalry 1865-1902.




I'll check on this further, as many of my research materials are not at my present location, but in another state.

Two Flints

[SEA3PO]

This would be a Spencer built carbine....and does not show any evidence of being relined....

SEA3PO

[Arizona Trooper]

Two Flints, those carbines are among the many SRS mysteries. They appear with dates around August of 1863. But(!), the first Spencer carbines weren't delivered until October 3rd of '63. That's when the the inspection certificates arrived at the War Department, so the guns were probably actually delivered a week or two before that, but August is out of the question.

Frank Mallory did the SRS research, and reported several of these sorts of anomalies over on the Trapdoor collector website www.trapdoorcollector.com. He said then that most of the records he was searching through were War Department copies. He knew the clerks were making mistakes, but rather than compound the errors with assumptions, he copied exactly what the records showed. In all likelihood, the copyists were bored to tears, and wouldn't have known a carbine from a rifle anyway. All the other cavalry had carbines, so the 11th Ohio got carbines too. Another possibility is that the unit is the 11th Ohio Mounted Infantry. MI units were often reported as cavalry in the records, and would have been issued rifles, so that would be a double transcription error.

The other units with low number carbines show up in late 1865, so they are probably M-1865s, not M-1860s. What's even stranger, the 1st Ky. Cav., which is reported as having low number carbines in December of '65, mustered out in September of '65. The record might be for the 1st Vet. Ky. Cav. I can't find a history on them, but if they had Spencers in December of '65, they were probably sitting in Texas waiting to throw a party for Mexican Emperor Maximilian, who wisely decided not to come.

The 19th Pa Cav. also has a bunch of Spencer M-1860 carbines with impossibly low numbers (as low as nr. . Unfortunately, there is no date on the survey. The first 750 Spencers were Navy rifles (serial numbers below 1000, but delivered just after the 5th and 6th Mich Cav. rifles, serial numbers mostly between 1-2000). There is no way that the 19th Pa. got M-1860s from the Navy! The 19th did stay in at the close of the war and served in Texas and later La., so they could have gotten M-1865 carbines. Here's another strangeness, most of the first couple thousand M-1865s are rifles. I have M-1865 rifle #1221, with the matching number under the barrel, while the 19th Pa. shows 1220 and 1222 as carbines.

Also, I've never seen records of Spencer or Springfield rebuilding M-1860s as M-1865s. The receivers and barrel contours are quite a bit different, so such a gun would be easy to identify. An M-1865 rifle cut down to carbine length does have the same barrel contour as an M-1860 carbine, and some very early M-1865 carbines have 22" M-1860 barrels bored to 50 cal. with 6 grooves. One in the 7000 range shouldn't though. The Springfield M-1860 rebuilds are sleeved to 50 cal, but are not marked "M-1865". Springfield rebuilt and refinished a lot of M-1865s. These are marked "M-1865". With M-1865s, the barrels were not sleeved. If they were not serviceable, they were simply replaced. Rebuilt Spencers were considered second class arms and were rarely issued to front line troops. They usually went to militia, teamster, scouts and so on.  If there is an ESA cartouche behind the sling bar, the gun has been through Springfield. 

Life in the Spencer world is very odd sometimes.

If it doesn't heat up too much this afternoon, I'm going to get out and shoot mine!

[Arizona Trooper]

The 19th Pa. had number 8. Don't know how I got the smiley face! The 19th reports 50 carbines that should be Navy rifles. 

[Two Flints]

Hi Arizona Trooper,

Thanks for the post and additional information regarding Springfield Research Services (SRS) serial # anomalies 

When I decided to offer "issue & date information" for serial #s submitted to me on SSS, I knew that some of the information I was providing might not be correct for many of the same reasons you cited.  Even when the SRS web site was up and running I believe they issued a disclaimer regarding the accuracy of the information they were providing.

I was hoping to keep all posted serial # related information on the same thread  because my first post contained a disclaimer as to the accuracy of the information I was giving out, and stated that I was only repeating already published information by another authority (SRS) But, at least, Spencer owners would have a starting point for the history of their carbine or rifle.

Your comments were very much appreciated    Thanks for taking the time

Two Flints

[Arizona Trooper]

Thanks Two Flints. This is the kind of stuff that makes Spencers so interesting. It was too hot to go shoot yesterday, maybe after work this week. Wednesday is looking good.

[Two Flints]

Arizona Trooper,

I think, right now, I would kill for a few hot days.  Here, in northern maine, we have had nothing but perpetual rain...day after day after day. 

I knew I had posted this:  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,14337.0.html
earlier on SSS.  For your edification.

Thanks again for your support on so many Spencer related questions

Two Flints

[Matthew Bowen]

Hello I'm trying to gather information on a 1860 Spencer carbine sn#16332 that was passed down in the family. Any idea what state or Reg it could have been issued to? Please help.