Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => SCORRS => Topic started by: Pappy Hayes on October 10, 2005, 03:01:32 PM
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Recently purchased a Pietta 58 Remingtion. I would like to use a conversion cylinder in it. Is anyone aware of one of the conversion cylinder makers making them to shoot the 44Colt? I would like to use mostly as a backup to my Open Top and RM 1860 Army. I know the barrel would need to be sleeved and I am not sure I would want to do that as I would not be able to convert back to the bp cylinder. So I may just go with a 45 conversion cylinder and would have to shoot a different caliber if I need it during a shoot if one of my others had problems. What do you pards here think?
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I checked around when I converted my 58 Remmy and the only conversion I saw available was the .45 Colt from either R&D or Kirst, I picked the R&D because it was recommended by one of my shooting pals who felt it was better. I will be interested to hear what others on the CAS boards have to say.
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I remember someone talkin about a conversion cylinder in .44, and they were talkin about loadin the cartridges with an old-style heeled bullet to be more like the original conversions. Course it would be centerfire instead of rimfire, and I dont think anyone is manufacturing such a round, so my guess is I'm just remembering someone's wishlist sorta thing. Is someone making the .44 Colt?
Of course, there's more than one story out there of guys who made their own cylinders. I suppose having a custom one made would be an option.
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I shoot '58 Pietta's with the R & D conversion in 45 LC. Both are used as my main match pistols. Both are tack-nailers and haven't had any major gunsmithing done to 'em. But, I have tinkered with 'em a bit here and there ta smooth 'em out a little.
(http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/42d0380dz1b94c239/b286/__sr_/b261.jpg?phtv5SDB9LJkVBG0)
Sorry, I haven't heard or know of anyone doing a conversion in 44 cal, yet.
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I want to say Kirst konverter can be gotten in the 44Colt. And yeah, I know the originals used a heeled bullet. I have only seen the 38 being manufactured with the heel bullet or maybe the hollow based. River Junction sells the 38's. I am leaning more towards just going with the 45Colt and it will be just for fun and a backup for my other two main guns.
Just looked on River Junction's web page. They have the 44 drop in cylinder listed and they have 44 heeled cartridges available for $28.00 for box of 50.
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I also noticed that Kirst is offering their .44 Colt conversion again. The 44 Colt is closer to what was originally used in the Remington conversions. To use this cartridge, you would need to either use their heeled bullets which Pappy noted were selling for $28.00 a box,....or a hollow based bullet,........... or have the bore lined to .429 to use standard modern 44 bullets.
Hodgdon has some 44 Colt data at...............
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/spc44colt.php
I may be wrong, but I think you could chamber the .44 Russian round in the .44 Colt cylinder,.......same way as I can shoot .45LC & .45 Schofield in my R&D cylinder.
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You can also get them from Taylor's & Co. http://taylorsfirearms.com/ (http://taylorsfirearms.com/)
I have a pair of Uberti Remmies with R&D cylinders in .45LC and they are two of the four most accurate shooters in my house. The other two accurate ones are Remmies with .38 spl R&D conversion cylinders in 'em.
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Almost forgot, Kirst DOES make a conversion cylinder that fires .45 ACP cartridges instead of the longer .45LC.
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Ya kin also find conversion cylinders at Fall Creek Sutler. Scroll down to near the bottom of the page. ;)
http://www.fcsutler.com/fccwrevolvers.asp (http://www.fcsutler.com/fccwrevolvers.asp)
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Almost forgot, Kirst DOES make a conversion cylinder that fires .45 ACP cartridges instead of the longer .45LC.
I thought they discontinued that. This may be something I need. Hmmmmmm........
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I was considerin one earlier this year because I wanted to try converting my brass gun, but was afraid even a black powder load in a .45LC would be too much for it. The smaller ACP case with a light BP load would (I thought) be ideal for converting a brass frame gun.
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Also in the Kirst you can use schofield brass to get a shorter case.jt
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I was under the impression that ya couldn't put a conversion inta a brass frame ??? But, ya'll seem ta know better than me at most things anyhow, so I'll take yer words on it.
Do ya think a 45 LC in 200 grain would be too much a brass frame? I normally shoot 45 LC 250 grain Winchesters in my steel frame Pietta's.
Ya'll be kind, I'ma still on a learnin' curve here ::)...the curve that goes by the creek on the way ta "school" each day. ;)
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Presidio, you are correct. Both companies that make the conversions say do not use them in brass frame guns. Which conversion cylinder are you using, R&D or Kirst? I am leaning towards the Kirst as I am not sure about the angle that is used in the R&D's and I am thinking about cutting the loading port in mine so I can leave the cylinder in.
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That is correct, no one makes a conversion cylinder and recommends it be used in a brass frame gun, just because the brass isnt strong enough to stand up to the abuse. That doesnt mean it hasnt been done, and cant be done. I'd never use such a thing as a match gun, and I'd never do it if I couldnt be sure that I could make low pressure rounds. This would be mostly used in shows we do for the public a couple times a year. If I do decide to do it, it will be understanding the risks, and accepting them for myself.
I'm not recommending anyone else do it. This would be a special purpose, seldom used gun.
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Pappy,
I was told by my gunsmith and shooting partner that the R&D lines up much better and indexes better than the Kirst. I do not know this first hand but because of that I bought the R&D and am very happy with it. My '58 Remmys are my main match guns and like Presidio I am relatively new to this sport and do love my Remmys. As Robert Duvall said in "Open Range" I like a gun with a little heft to it.
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http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/
Heeled bullets and loaded ammo. Nice folks strugglung to get started and very reasonable and helpful. I also noticed that River Junction has the Kirst 6 shot 44 gated conversion for the 1858 and sell loaded heeled ammo to go with it. Kinda pricey but if'n that's your mood?
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Pappy, I use the R & D conversions. Jest ta keep life simple fer me I got one of the originals to where the cylinder notch hadn't been done yet so ya could actually see the bullet from the side. I've cut in that notch like the newer R & D models since then.
Maybe, one year {when I'm a little richer ::)} I'll try out the Kirst conversions...like Marshall Will; it'll give me an excuse ta buy more Remi's ;)!
I'm with ya on the "Little Heft" there, Coop! ;D. Started with a Vaquero 45LC, but, it didn't fit muh hand proper. Tried out a pard's Remi Old Army, and :o got instantly hooked! Now ya won't see me with anything less ;).
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You bet, Pard. Once ya get the feel of all that iron in the hand yer hook for life. What are you firing? I use a 6.5 gr powder load with a 250 gr slug. That Remmy purely talks...
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Coop, I ain't got inta the reloading part of the deal yet; so; all my loads are factory. Currently I'm using Winchester brand cowboy loads bein' 45 LC, 250gr Lead Flat Nose.
Soon as I kin git a place set up outta the way of my 3 year old terror :o, I'll start up loadin' my own. Here's agin will be some more schoolin' fer me. ::)
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Presidio,
Hey! You are not alone on the reloading thing,,,I don't reload either but I called Ten X where I get my cowboy ammo from and asked, that is how I know what size load I am using.
Coop
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I got both!
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Hey Marshall Rusty Bore...yer pic didn't quite make it ta snuff? :-\
try clicking on the "image Button" below the Italic button and insert yer image between the markings
[img]insert picture link here[img]
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Snapfish don't seem to like me doing that >:(!
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If'n ya kinn send it ta me via emule, I'll see if I kin post it fer ya!
Click on profile fer my email address. ;)
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There got it in as an attachment!
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Them's sweet, Rusty!
Here's some more photos of muh gear:
Muh Tack nailers: 5 1/2" Pietta '58s w/ 45 LC R & D Conversions
(http://us.a1.yahoofs.com/users/42d0380dz1b94c239/b286/__sr_/b261.jpg?phGQqVDBLSXoVBG0)
Muh original full rig: Reloadin' Strips by Longline Charlie, 5 1/2 & another 7 1/2 Remi '58s
(http://us.a1.yahoofs.com/users/42d0380dz1b94c239/b286/__sr_/be88.jpg?pheZqVDBqBKclv4Z)
And, muh lil' mule cart: 45 LC Puma; Winchester '91 30-30, Winchester Riot 12 ga pump (jest fer a space filler), EMF 12 ga SxS
(http://us.a1.yahoofs.com/users/42d0380dz1b94c239/b286/__sr_/2215.jpg?phdZqVDBZAzy2CZS)
(http://us.a1.yahoofs.com/users/42d0380dz1b94c239/b286/__sr_/940c.jpg?phdZqVDB9G6Cdoaj)
(http://us.a1.yahoofs.com/users/42d0380dz1b94c239/b286/__sr_/7b41.jpg?phdZqVDBf66SRANn)
Kinda went picture crazy, ya'll excuse my pride! Still awaiting new leather from C & J Traders. Should have this week - hav'ta show off muh pride some more then; so ya'll jest hav'ta grin n' bear it fer awhile! ;D
FYI. Yep, I shoot 'em all in the white!
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I've done 3 conversions so far, all Kirst. Two in .45ACP, and 1 in .38 Special. I wouldn't worry about swapping back and forth between conversion and original cylinder, as the guns don't seem to like it. Don't ask me why, but they seem to 'adjust' themselves to the conversions, and don't like switching back and forth. Besides, once you cut the loading port in, the point is kind of moot under Federal law....you've now 'manufactured' a firearm, and can no longer sell it (without a hassle).
On older manufacture guns, the conversions may require some smithing to get things working with the new cylinder. My Pietta 1858 Navy manufactured in 1980 required extensive reworking of the innards and an entirely new hammer before the .38 Special conversion cylinder would function.
And if memory serves me, all of them necessitated the refiling of the face of the hammer so that they smoothly engaged the firing pin, as opposed to battering it. Not 'required' per se, but something I'd recommend when spending that much $$$ for the cylinder in the first place.
---You can tell if this needs to be done by watching as you slowly lower the hammer down onto the firing pin. The hammer should contact the firing pin (and only the firing pin) squarely, and then squarely contact the frame of the cylinder as the firing pin is depressed.--
I don't imagine the R&D's are any different. After all, the Italian replicas are not known to be especially made to exacting tolerances. i.e. Many of them batter the nipples as they come stock from the factory anyways.
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Hey, thanks for the Gad ammo link. Great site.
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jiminy.........interesting to hear about your Kirst conversions, especially the Rem Navy .36. That was the gated one, right? Did you get the ejector rod assembly for it, too? I wonder just what the difference is between the older manufactured replicas and the newer ones which would call for so much reworking of the clockworks to get the Kirst to properly function.
I have a 2004 Uberti '58 Rem NMA for which I bought an R&D drop in, and it worked real smooth from the start, and continues to perform flawlessly. Your mention of re-facing the hammer is a good point. I know that the Kirst has one firing pin,.....and am wondering, does it angle up from the backplate like the R&Ds? Here's a closeup of the R&D's angled firing pins (there are 6).....
(http://tinypic.com/erke1g.jpg)
With my R&D I do notice that the firing pins have been making a depression at the bottom face of the hammer,...here's a pic...
(http://tinypic.com/erkdx3.jpg)
The rest of the hammer does not make any contact with the backplate. I wonder if it would be a good idea for me to cut back the angle of the lower portion of the hammer so as it will strike the pins more squarely, making contact further up towards the middle of the hammer face,...just a tad, so the hammering won't begin to peen over the lower edge where it's hitting closer to now.
Thanks for the info 'bout your Kirst conversions,.... ;)
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Actually, I did the .36 before the gated converters came out. I was expecting they would send me a 'ported' converter (as I ordered it over the web) but they ended up sending me an 'unported' converter ring. Which ended up being OK, as I decided to ream the cylinder out to accept .357 magnum cartridges...and since I wanted the solid converter ring for that (FYI-reaming to magnum length not recommended by Kirst) ...it all worked out fine. (I would recommend that you call and specify exactly the type of converter ring you want, otherwise you may end up with whatever happens to be on the shelf.)
As for reworking the innards of the earlier guns, I imagine over time they've changed the specs that they make the guns to, and the converters are made to the 'newer' manufacturing specifications.
No, I did not get the ejector rod. The cartridges come out faster if you drop the cylinder anyways.
I only ported one of my conversions, (one of the 'old' 6-shot .45 ACP's) and I didn't use the ejector rod on that one either, as I shortened the barrel to 5". The other one is also a 6-shot .45 ACP, and I got this converter used with the gun...it's one of the early Kirst converters with no milled in spacing between the ring and the cylinder. That revolver was in bad shape, so I ended up replacing the innards, cutting the barrel to 4 3/8", new front sight, and nickel plating it. I also nickel plated all the Kirst cylinders (but not the rings).
Here's the .36 1858 Navy (Now it's a .38 Special/.357 Magnum 1858 --stainless with a nickel cylinder...shown with .357 mag and .38 Special cartridges)
(http://www.interx.net/~clps/images/CAS/36calPietta.jpg)
Here's them all: 2 stainless, 1 nickel plated (top gun)
(http://www.interx.net/~clps/images/CAS/remingtons.jpg)
Yeah...um...in my opinion the firing pins shouldn't be denting the hammer like that. In fact, if anything they should be just putting just a little circular mark on the flat face of the hammer, not actually denting it, just marking it. They seem to be hitting awful low...I like the pins to hit in the center of the hammer if at all possible. Again...looking at your 1st picture....the face of the hammer should match exactly the angle of the firing pin housing where they meet as the pin is fully depressed, IMHO.
No sense damaging the guns by having the cylinder/hammer batter each other...as by time you buy the cylinder and revolver, these 'conversions' end up being more expensive then an actual cartridge pistol :)
(By the way, Numrich is great for innards and spare parts)
Hope that helps some.
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I'm looking at that picture a little closer....are you sure that notch wasn't already in the hammer? I'm thinking I see a faint ring above the notch in the hammer...right where it should be. Maybe my imagination?
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jiminy........Your Remmies look great! Nice job with all the work you've done! It's good to hear what others' experiences are with these conversions,.... because as time goes by ,I'll be picking up more Rems to install conversions on....., all the info is helpful.
I'm going to do as you suggest and file my hammer so as its face matches the angle of the firing pin housing. That faint ring you see on my hammer is from previous percussion cap firing on the face. I think the hammer is becoming dented by the R&D firing pin for two reasons. First is that the R&D firing pin steel is much harder than the Italian hammer steel, ...and second, I could use to lighten the hammer spring so it doesn't come down with so much force. Stiffer springs are more necessary in shooting cap & ball percussion, but can be too excessive a force for cartridge ignition.
Nice picture of your Rem Navy .38/.357 with the cartridges laid out like that. ;)
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Oldelm was that your .44 5 1/2" Rem? Will talk to you later about my Pietta 1858 Target, K?
Jiminy really like your Rems, especially the Armi San Paolo. I have one that is Patina aged and may be a rather old one... has U.S. marking on right side serial numbers that would date back to a late Dec 17 1861 Old Army with no prooof marks and a stock dovetailed site. Fooled me and a Collector till one of my Pards in a forum read that I found DDG under the grip. Real nice OL' rev. Somebody did a good job on it. like the size of the Armi San Paolo it's a hair smaller, is yours that way too compaired to say a Uberti or Pietta?
SG
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Thanks for the compliments. Yes, the .44 Armi San Paulo has a small frame...very similar to the 'Navy' style frame of the 1980 .36 Pietta I've got. Compared to the .44 Pietta, which is rather bulky looking, the small frame style is probably my favorite.
And that's another neat thing about the Armi San Paulo's ...they are (sometimes?) marked like the originals. Mine says '.44 CAL. NEW MODEL ARMY' on the left side of the barrel.
Yes, the front sights were dovetailed at the factory, like the Uberti's. Mine was made in September 1997 for EuroArms, although it looked older when I purchased it :)
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Pappy, River Junction sells the 6 shot 44 Colt gated cylinder and has the Heeled 44 ammo but it's a bit pricey. I went with the 45 Colt chambering only I shoot 45 S&W Schofield which is like shooting a 38 in a 357 if'n you know what I mean. Plus the Schofield round is more friendly for smokeless loads and will still take a hefty 28 grains of BP under a 225 grain boolit so still a potent round and history correct too boot for the 1870's.
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So Jiminy, Armi San Paolo did make them like that with U.S. Gov. type markings, and accurate serial numbers for Dec 17 1861? And no BP or Italian markings at all, would this one be a non-proofed one... or not made for export? Cause it seems too perfect a job to have been defarbed.
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Honestly, I don't know...I seem to recall seeing some replica blackpowder pistols with martial markings on them coming out of Italy, but I don't remember what or when. Mine has 'FOR BLACK POWDER ONLY - MADE IN ITALY' on the right side of the barrel and the Italian proof markings on the frame. You may want to contact Euroarms (who now owns Armi San Paulo, I believe), and ask them about your revolver. If you PM me, I'll give you the email address contact that I used a few years ago...not sure if it's valid now.
Here's what they said about mine:
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"Regarding your enquiry the revolver was manufactured in September 1997 by ARMI SAN PAOLO.
The markings (letters \PN\ with a star above it, nearby a faint crest ...the crest consists of
crossed swords over a shield, with what appears to be a bird sitting on top) are those from the Italian proof test house. PN stands for Polvere Nera (Black Powder).
You can find them on the Blue Book of Gun values in the markings section."
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In any event, if someone was so inclined it wouldn't be too difficult to mark one and age it similar to an original after the fact....(you ought to see all the counterfeit tomahawks selling on eBay for example). When one can make a profit of $1500+ for an investment of $300 on an Italian replica....the incentive is certainly there.
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Thanks Jim I do have Euroarms info and they sent me a parts list. The one I have like I said has fooled the best of them, even a collector who travels the Globe and writes for a pretty Prominant magazine and. Does test with a strong Uberti backing. Anyway the only European markings at all are a triangulated DDG under the right grip on the frame...these 3 intials are the Original owners of Armi San Paolo. That's the only way I found out the Mfg. of it. Does that paint a better picture of the authenticity counterfiet as it may be? It looks like the real deal. Showed it to a guy at a gunshop my friend works at, told um $2000 and its yours , he said seems like a fair price...shoulda sold it...LoL!
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Never underestimate the talent of a counterfeiter, as some of the stuff that they put out can easily be classified as works of art themselves. While it may not be an 'original', it's certainly more valuable than a stock 'replica' pistol, IMHO.
Mine has a similar marking under the barrel, but it appears to be 'DGG'.
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Sorry I transposed it, I stand corrected DGG it is on the grip frame:o)
<img src="http://tinypic.com/euhjif.jpg" alt="Image hosted by TinyPic.com">
And It's Older cousin from Belgium.
<img src="http://tinypic.com/euhjma.jpg" alt="Image hosted by TinyPic.com">