Uberti Parts Gun Question

[Dave T]

I find myself one of the gullible ones who didn't know about all this Uberti parts stuff until after about the 3rd USFA gun had been purchased (used of course) and I'd been told more than once I'd probably been taken. Gun in question is a Pre War, 4-3/4" BP frame 45 Colt with 1 piece wood stocks. It is one of the dreaded 20XXX serial number range guns.

My question is, given that I payed way too much for the bloody thing, how in blazes to I determine what a reasonable selling price is for it? I've owned a couple Uberti (Cimarrons) in the past and this Italian USFA is much nicer that either of those were. Still the stigma of being one of the dreaded parts guns leaves me with no idea what to list it for. Can't find one for sale anywhere to compare it to, and it would probably be someone looking for another sucker like me anyway (LOL).

Help,
Dave

[Buckaroo Lou]

Dave T,

Like you I bought a couple of USFA's that were the early ones made from Uberti parts. Actually they were nice guns and I sort of wish I would have kept one and had it not been in .357 magnum caliber I may very well have kept it. That one was an early 7 1/2" dome blue with one piece walnut grips USPtFA  with the early box, sleeve, and all the paper work. If I remember it correctly I sold it on GB for around $950 or so, but that has been at least a year ago and any USFA was in high demand then. I stated up front it was an early USPtFA because I wanted every one to know. I did not do it as a bid. I did a fixed price and it sold within a day or so. The gun appeared as new and unfired. Yours being a prewar may command a bit more money. If I were you I would put it on GB at a fixed price and let it run for several days and see what happens. Be sure and state the serial number range. Then again you may just want to accept the fact it is a very well made import parts gun and shoot the heck out of it.

I really don't know what folks might be willing to pay for a nice early USAF. Maybe some others will chime in soon.

[Dave T]

Thanks for the feed back Buck. I'm at a real loss on what to do about pricing this. From all the research I've been able to do it appears to possibly have a USFA frame as the opening between the breach face and the loading gate when opened is minuscule. Also the frame has the three line patent dates. Despite this the serial number is 20XXX. So who knows for sure.

The barrel is marked in two lines: USFA Manufacturing Co., Hartford, Conn. USA with no mention of 'Patented', so again is this a USFA barrel or a Uberti?

I can say for sure the hammer is cast with a tapered firing pin (Uberti) and the back strap and grip frame are longer than the all USA made guns I have. This gun feels in the hand like the first Uberti I owned, which seem OK until I handled my first real Colt. I immediately knew there was a difference in the feel of the grip and I have always preferred the Colt feel. The US made USFAs have it. This gun doesn't.

I do know I'm going to sell it or trade it. It will bug me from now until they plant me in the ground that I got taken on this gun and it isn't right. Onward through the fog.

Dave

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[Buckaroo Lou]

Dave T,

If you can compare a USA USFA and a Uberti you will notice the pivot arm of the loading gate on the USA made USFA is thicker than the one on a Uberti. There is a distinct noticeable difference. That is besides the hole that shows at the breach face when the loading gate is open. The front sight on Uberti barrels taper inward to the top of the sight and USA made barrel front sights are the same thickness from where they meet the barrel to the top of the sight. The rear sight on Uberti frames are pinched to form a true V and USA made USFA's the rear sight is squared off at the bottom and is not a true V but a V with a squared off bottom. The only difference I have noticed on this are the inspector series guns.

I don't know if these issues are true to every USA made and Uberti frames but I know it is true to the ones I own.

Like I said, decide on a price and put it on GB and see what happens. Just be sure and reveal the serial number range so everyone knows what you have.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Dave,
First off, let me apologize for not answering the PM that you sent to me.  I have been away from home the past week (visiting beautiful Yuma, AZ ) and just got back to the computer.  That being said, your best source for information is right here on the forum.  Buckaroo Lou knows his stuff as do a few others who hopefully will join in (where are you Yahoody?).
You mention that your frame is "US" made.  If so, then it would be a pretty good guess that the rest of your gun, minus, perhaps, springs and grip frame, were all "US" made as well.  Lets face it, frame, barrel and cylinder are the "big three."
The two line address on your barrel only indicates that the barrels 4&3/4 in length or shorter.  Longer barrels have the one line address (as was standard practice with Colt).  No indication of Uberti manufacture there.  
As for your gun falling into a "dreaded" serial number range, I doubt if such a range actually exists.  Parts guns, US & Uberti mix, are still sought after by many.  The only guns that bear a true stigma are those marked "USPt.FA."
You have to remember that USFA's transition from "Uberti parts guns" to "all US made guns" was a gradual one.  An early made US frame, cylinder and barrel gun might very well contain Uberti grip frames, springs, hammers, etc..  Whatever was left under hand in the USFA shop.
When USFA started making all of their parts "in house" they duplicated Uberti, not Colt. Why?  Simple!  They wanted all of their "all US made" parts to be compatible with their earlier Uberti made guns and those containing Uberti parts.
Don't despair over your "parts gun" purchase.  How does it shoot?  I would take a "parts gun" that shoots off-hand 2" groups at 25 yards over an "all US made" USFA that  gives me 4" groups.  The most accurate SA I have ever owned (and between Colt, USFA, and 50 years of SA shooting, I have owned a BUNCH of them) is one of those "dreaded" parts guns… a nickel plated, 7&1/2" with one piece walnut grips.  It was manufactured sometime around 2001 and I wouldn't give it up for anything.  Off hand, it gives me that consistent 2" group that I mentioned.
Hope to see more of you here on the forum.
CJF  

[Dave T]

No problem with the PM, Capt'n. Beautiful Yuma? Back in the 19yth Century, when the Territorial Prison was a going concern it wasn't so well thought of (LOL).

To be honest this is not a bad looking gun but it is the grip shape (slightly longer than the US made USFAs I have and the Colts I used to have) that bugs me the most. The Colt SAA grip frame is what feels right. When I took this out of the box it didn't feel right but I hadn't fired a SAA style gun in 25 years by then and thought it was lack of familiarity. When I got a USFA that was made in the US the grip was immediately comfortable and I knew then there was something wrong with the 4-3/4" gun. That's what started me researching all this stuff and lead me to CasCity.com. Guess you could say one good thing came out of it (smile).

Oh, and the comment I made about the barrel was not because it had a two line address (I knew that was due to the barrel's length). It was because it didn't say 'USPt.FA'.

Dave

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Dave,
What little is left of the original prison is interesting to see but that is about it for Yuma.  Hardly the cultural center of the southwest!
CJF 

[Dave T]

While I'm trying to decide what to do with this gun I thought I'd post a picture of what I've been talking about. Picture didn't come out to bad so I guess I'm braggin' a little about my photography (LOL).



Gun looks nice but I'm having a heck of a time getting past the fact it isn't what I thought it was and I flat out paid too much for it. Oh well, we get too soon old and too late smart!

Dave

[Buckaroo Lou]

Dave T,

It is a very nice looking single action and one that can be appreciated. Truly I can understand your disappointment in finding out it is composed of imported parts but remember they are fit and finished here in the good old USA and by comparison back when it was produced was probably as good or better than any single action being produced then.

It is not my intent to rub salt on the wound and I don't intend to offend you but I can tell immediately simply because I have worked at familiarizing myself with the differences you can recognize pretty quickly that it appears to have a Uberti cylinder. If I could see the ejector rod housing and the section of the slot that cams the target or half moon lever away from the barrel I could tell you if it is an imported or USA part. The Uberti ejector housing cam portion of the slot is short while the USA made ones are about twice as long. That portion of your photo is too dark to be able to see the ejector housing slot otherwise I could tell. Since I can't see the loading gate side I can't be certain about the frame. From the side view in your photo the front barrel sight looks pretty USA to me but can't be sure since I can't tell if it is same thickness from top to bottom or if it tapers at the top.

I personally think you have a very nice looking revolver that can be an excellent shooter. If you are not satisfied with it, sell it for what you can get and chalk the rest up to experience. Sometimes that is all we can do. That is what I did.

[45 Dragoon]

Well,
 It's probably my fault for opening this can of worms (on another forum) !!  Sorry about that Dave but you know a lot more about USFAs now than you did. (This is the place to learn!)
 Nice looking revolver though .  .  .  .

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Dave T]

Lou,

These are the only other pictures I have so far. I took these and the first one thinking I would used them to post the gun in the classified section. I may need some more photos of specific details and I still have no idea what to ask for this thing.





As for "experience", I went through enough of that from the mid 1980s into the 1990s when I took up shooting black powder in original 19th Century Colts and Winchesters. Made a bunch of mistakes buying junkers thinking I could get them restored to shootable condition. Sometimes it worked…and sometimes it cost way too much and the darn things still would't shoot worth (expletive deleted).

Thanks for the help, and for the conversation, to everyone.

Dave

[Buckaroo Lou]

Dave T,

Sorry again but the photo is too dark at the loading gate pivot arm area to be able to see the thickness of the pivot arm. Without seeing it clearly I still can not tell about the frame nor can I tell anything about the front sight other than its profile. The target shaped lever of the ejector rod obstructs the view of the front cam portion of the ejector housing slot. I feel for certain that at least in part it has some Uberti parts. I realize that is probably not what you were hoping for but again I think it is a very nice looking single action. Uberti parts or not the metal is of excellent quality and it has been fit and finished here in the USA.

Value wise, probably not that of the ones made of USA parts but still a fine firearm. It looks as though it was well cared for.

[Black River Smith]

Dave T, sorry about your dilemma.  Like you I am interested in looking for and acquiring a USA made USFA but a Rodeo, because it is most affordable, too me.  Unlike you, I was lucky to come across all the great advise from members on this forum and the knowledge they shared before buying anything.

The main thing I am working on is the SN#224XX (safety buffer) and/or a factory marked box...  Thanks to everyone for that important info.

But there are other factors that could help others, by providing info from your gun.  Like, what buckaroo lou stated about the front sight.  USFA is a straight vertical than a radius starting low and rising to the high spot then radiusing down to the front like yours.  Whereas Uberti is straight vertical back then just radiusing down from there.

Lou stated that your cylinder is definitely Uberti, the only thing I see is the deeper bevel on the front of the cylinder, 1st gen appearance on all Uberti's.  Lou could you elaborate?

Lou stated the camming ejector groove is different between USFA and Uberti.  Never heard this before so Dave T could you provide a good photo of this area and Lou could you provide a view of one from a US USFA?

Lou stated that the loading gate arm is different.  I heard that the USFA is thicker than the Uberti.  Could you provide a good photo of that area so Lou can elaborate or explain more detail?

Dave T does you firearm have a hardened firing bushing?  A std Uberti does not but an USFA does, just like a Colt.  Also what is the shape of your firing pin, cone or tapered? (Sorry just re-read your second post where you indicate a tapered firing pin.)  But is the hardened bushing in the frame?

All this additional information would help, Thanks

(editted 4/23 for spelling error and line seperation clarity, only.)

[Dave T]

Black River,

I'll get my new camera, and my vintage eyes, out to the shop later today and try to get those pictures. No reason other folks shouldn't be able to learn from my mistakes too! (LOL) As to the hammer and firing pin, yes the pin is tapered but when I took the back strap off to see what kind of car leaf spring they'd put in there (took two hands and a red face to cock the hammer) the casting line on the bottom of the hammer was evident.

Lou,

Could you explain how you identified the cylinder as Uberti so easily?

Dave

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Dave,
The cylinder flutes are the giveaway.  Uberti flutes are more "pointed" at the end while the US made cylinder flutes have a more rounded appearance.
CJF

[Buckaroo Lou]

Dave T & Black River Smith,

The cylinder flutes on a Uberti appear slightly longer probably because the rounded end of the flute looks more pointed and longer. The rounded end of the cylinder flutes on a USA made USFA appear shorter and more rounded. In other words thy don't taper to as severe a point.

I do not have a USFA made from import parts but I have an old Uberti I have had a number of years so I can show the difference between it and a USA made USFA.

I have made photos so you can compare the cylinder flutes, loading gate pivot arms, and the ejector housing slot.

The first photo is my Uberti cylinder, second photo is my USA made USFA shooter's cylinder, third photo is the cam area of the ejector housing slot on my old Uberti, and the fourth photo is the cam area of the ejector housing slot of my USA made USFA shooter.

Sorry, but I hand buffed my old Uberti with one of those green plastic looking dish scrubbing pads awhile back attempting to make it look more antique. The buffing really shows up in the close up photos. It really doesn't look that bad to the naked eye.

[Buckaroo Lou]

This photo does not show the thickness difference of the loading gate pivot arms as dramatically as I have seen it on many of the other revolvers. My Uberti is at least 15 years old. You can see a difference in what appears to be the length of the pivot arms however. On the two USFA's I owned that were made from import parts the loading gate pivot arms were noticeably thinner than the ones on USA made USFA's.

The top gun is my USA made USFA shooter and the bottom one is my old Uberti shooter.

[Black River Smith]

Lou,

Thank you for the detailed pictures and descriptions of the differences.

I have old and new Uberti's and I do now see the point or run-off cut of the flute.  Which cut more closing represents a Colt flute or did USFA not want to reproduce Colt features?

Your picture of the ejector head cam slot is very clear and the differences very visible.

The gate arm thickness is not real evident but the higher back cut of the arm with respect to loading groove is seen.  But to me, in MHO,  that could be a 'not so easily' discernible feature when inspecting a 'to-buy' firearm.  That area is going to be hard to make a definitive call on.

Can you address two other features of USFA vs Uberti:  1.  Do all USptFA / USFA frames have a hardened firing pin bushing or only the US USFA made frames?  That will definitely be an easy call feature for a good frame (besides the gate window).   2.  Can you describe anything about the hammer differences between USFA and Uberti?  Like deep cut checkering serrations rather than Uberti new lazer cuts (a clear and evident difference).  Or do USFA hammers have the Colt firing pin removal holes like all Uberti's (if no then easy call)?   Just read here that someone stated the bottom S curve is thicker on the USFA but again that would be by my eyes 'a subjective call' without having enough handling experience that others may have.

Again, thanks for the added help.  

[Buckaroo Lou]

Black River Smith,

Yahoody has a thread, I believe the third one down entitled, "USA or parts? How to tell?" and he addresses the hammer issue and other ways one can tell. I don't know about the firing pin bushing other than I know USA made USFA's have one. I don't know if the USPtFA's did or not. If Gary Granger shows up he can probably tell you.

[GaryG]

On the Uberti frames that were imported as parts, USFA would install a firing pin bushing.  The 22 Plinker and 12/22 frames did not have bushings