2nd Allen conversion

[Trailrider]

I'm waiting on a .519" mold but I cast some bullets with 20-1 alloy with the Lee mold
 they still measure .515". I drop tubed 60 grain Swiss 1 1/2, a cardboard wad and a
.7cc dipper of PSB, seated the bullet with one lube ring out. I shot about 80 yards
off a bench and the first 3 shots were in a 3" group only about 16" high. Did all these
shoot high? or did somebody file the front sight? It's showing promise, I think it will
be a shooter when I get the right sized bullet, but for now PSB does wonders.


                                           BTB

U.S. military long arms of the post-CW era were sighted in to zero at something like 352 yards. (I can't get at my reference book right now, but there are reproduction books that give ordnance figures for the .50-70, so I may be off a bit.)  The idea was to create a "danger space" for shooting at a mounted cavalryman and his horse!  The result is that most of the different rifles, Springfield's, Sharps, etc., will shoot 15-18 inches high at 100 yds, so 16 inches at 80 yds is about right.  For target shooting, rather than putting a taller front sight blade, I used to place two 10-inch diameter bullseyes one above the other, aim at the bottom of the lower one and that would put me pretty much on at 100 yds.

[Drydock]

262 yards.  Infantrymen were taught to aim for the belly.  Hold 6 on everything.  The 3 groove gov't barrel actually works well with a little "windage" for BP fouling.

[bear tooth billy]

Sorry about being a newbie about these old military guns, but why
did they zero them at such long distances. Wouldn't most shooting be
done less than that?  Thanks


                             BTB

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[Drydock]

The setting was designed to keep a bullet roughly inside the vertical height of the average human torso out to 300 yards.  IE with the battle sight setting, (these are the M1873 numbers, but you will get the idea) at 50 yards the bullet strikes 13" high, 21" high at 100 yards, 16" high at 200 yards, and 17" low at 300 yards.  With the rifle held parallel to the ground, there should be no safe space for a man inside the critical 300.  We still do this, only today we call it "optimum point blank range"

 Remember, the critical distance in battle since the inception of firearms has always been 300 paces/yards/meters.  With the invention of Smokeless, military thinkers the world over doubled that to 600 yards, only to find out even today, that the critical engagement distance still remains 300.

[Trailrider]

The setting was designed to keep a bullet roughly inside the vertical height of the average human torso out to 300 yards.  IE with the battle sight setting, (these are the M1873 numbers, but you will get the idea) at 50 yards the bullet strikes 13" high, 21" high at 100 yards, 16" high at 200 yards, and 17" low at 300 yards.  With the rifle held parallel to the ground, there should be no safe space for a man inside the critical 300.  We still do this, only today we call it "optimum point blank range"

 Remember, the critical distance in battle since the inception of firearms has always been 300 paces/yards/meters.  With the invention of Smokeless, military thinkers the world over doubled that to 600 yards, only to find out even today, that the critical engagement distance still remains 300.

Thank you, sir, for the correction of the range, and the additional explanation.  Eventually, I hope to dig out the booklet on management of the .50-70 arms.

[bear tooth billy]

I got my dies and loaded up some rounds that I shot this weekend. I loaded a few 515'' bullets on top of 60 gr 1 1/2 Swiss
at 150 yds it shot a 7'' group. I also loaded some 519" bullets exactly the same, and they shot a 6'' group. I slugged this
and came up with a 518" groove diameter. So I expected the 519" bullets to shoot a lot better. Again, I am new to these old
military guns, but my experience with Sharps rifles, I believe there would have been a big difference. The 1866's sights
are very hard for me to hold the same aim point. Do you guys use magnum primers, I haven't been. Any load suggestions
would be appreciated.  Thanks

                       BTB

[ira scott]

In the BP Cartridge Reloading Primer by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe it says that they have found that a hot primer is necessary for accurate black powder shooting. Their recommendations are Federal's 210, 210 match and 215 magnum, and Winchester large rifle and large rifle magnum. They say they use the Federal 215 magnum exclusively. In a test at 200 yds. with three identical .40-70 loads other  than the primer the results were as follows: 1.  Winchester Lg. pistol primers   14 inches
                                                   2.  Remington 9 1/2 lg rifle primers 9 1/2 inches
                                                   3.  Federal 215 magnum lg rifle primers  4 inches
Good luck John,  I have faith you'll soon have that old girl shootin as good as yur buffler gun!

B.N.S.

[Trailrider]

How did you measure the groove diameter?  Weren't these barrels 3 lands and 3 grooves?  Can be done, but not as easy as with an even number of lands and grooves. 

[OklaTom]

As long as we are talking 50-70 Govtjere, at the last Muster I was shooting an Italian copyof the 1963 Sharps Carbine, 50-70. Actually, I have two of them. At the Muster, one of my carbines had the tab break off the extractor (ok, I still like to shoot full loads and sometimes, that Starline brass just gets stuck).  Anyway, the tab broke off, so manual extraction with something like a patch knife is required. I contacted Chiappa about a replacement, but that got me nowhere. They have crappy customer service. Any suggestions? I love shooting them, but at a Muster popping them out with a blade is impractical.

[Niederlander]

Are they close enough to an original to make it work?  I would assume not, but you never know.

[bear tooth billy]

After slugging it, I measured from edge to edge of the lead that was in the groove, and moved it
around to get the largest measurement. I took it to work and had our maintenance guys measure with
2 different calipers, and we came up with the same. it's tricky getting just the right spot to get a
measurement. Tom, I just put in that spring in this one, it was worn and the brass was going over top
and had to pry every one over it. S&S has originals for $18, I have no idea if it will fit in yours though

                              BTB

[Pitspitr]

Do you guys use magnum primers, I haven't been.

I only use Federal 215's in my BP Rifle loads

[bear tooth billy]

There is a new deer hunting regulation in Iowa that you can use straight wall cartridges under 1.8".
 I had the local DNR guy check and they decided the 50/70 is legal. Unfortunately the original sights
hit about 18'' high at deer range. I left the original sight and JB welded a sight ramp behind  it to
use a Marbles brass sight. I calculated wrong and now hitting a little low, but another sight is on the
way. The load shoots very well, and will be deer hunting in Dec.

                                   BTB