Centre fire breech block - bad news

[djossi@yahoo.com]

Sir Charles,

Sorry, I guess I got carried away. I'm awaiting a call back from S&S, but I've discovered an alternative. If S&S can't ship the breech block directly, then MFI, a freight forwarder that handles firearms and firearms parts, can get it there. For a fee of $50, one can send a small package to them and they will then ship it to its international destination. I spoke with Mike Frost, the owner of MFI, and he indicated that shipping would be approximately $50 as the part will, it seems, need to be sent via FedEx or other express carrier.

Based on my conversation with Mike, I don't think that S&S will be able to ship the part to Perry for much less than MFI can and it may cost much more. I say that because the magic number is $100. If the wholesale value of a part is less than $100, the ITAR export fee is $50 and approval is instantaneous. Mike said he has no problem placing the wholesale value of the breech block at less than $100.

The reason that is so important is because the process for items with the wholesale value of $100 or more is much more complicated and requires a $250 fee. It can take as much as four months for this type of export license to be approved.

Here's a link to the MFI website that provides additional information:

http://mfiap.com/i-8366418-itar-export-service-fee-small-package.html

As it happens, I have an S & S center fire breech block in hand that I've not yet installed. Given our close ties to the mother country and the fact that the US and Britain are but two nations separated by a common language (to paraphrase George Bernard Shaw), Iwould be glad to ship it to Perry via MFI if he would reimburse me for the cost of the item, $180, plus the MFI export fee and shipping ($50 + $50 = $100) for a total of $280. The only variable is the actual freight cost.

Again, I don't believe that S&S can get the part to Perry for much less because the ITAR fee is fixed at $50 and the cost of shipping will be the same since it is done through a third-party. Mike is at the SHOT Show in Las Vegas so I didn't have a chance to ask him the obvious question: If all he charges the customer is $50, which is what he has to pay ITAR for a one-time export license, plus whatever the cost of shipping is via FedEx or similar express carrier, how can he make any money?

Anyway, as soon as I hear back from S&S, I will post that information as well.

Almost forgot, I can get the breech block to the UK without a problem. However, I have no idea what British customs might do when they open the box and see a metal object inscribed, "Black Powder Only". There is also the import duty to consider. I won't hazard a guess on what that might be. That will all be Perry's responsibility.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Dave J;  I wasn't being "difficult", as your info is excellent.

[djossi@yahoo.com]

Sir Charles,

Believe me, I didn't take your comments as being negative at all. One thing I really enjoy about this forum is that I have yet to see someone get flamed. The folks who participate are some of the most tolerant people that I've encountered on the Internet to date.

Obviously, I enjoy digging into topics and providing information to others. It's nice to be able to do that without worrying that someone is going to launch a personal attack for a comment that I made.

I don't mind debate at all. In fact, I enjoy it. What I can't tolerate is someone who makes the discussion personal even though the subject is nothing but facts and data.

Again, that hasn't happened on this forum. Based on my experience elsewhere, that's a small miracle for which I'm quite grateful.

[Advertising]

[Blair]

Dave,
That maybe good news for Perry.

Perry maybe able to do some foot work on his side that will help make the transition through his customs easier.

I have shipped firearms, custom made Muzzle loading firearms to Germany, the process worked much easier when the buyer supplied me with a prearranged "Customs" approved Number that was placed on the box. (everyone was expecting the package)
That was, however, with German Customs... it may not work that way with other countries. Perry will have to find out from his end what a 'part' or 'part assembly' of this type may involve!
There was still a high import fee on the buyers end. It did not effect me (cost wise) in doing the shipping.
This was a few years ago so I can't say how much that has changes within the last 5 or 6 years.
I really hope this info may help.
My best,
 Blair

[djossi@yahoo.com]

According to the Notice to Importers entitled "Imports of Firearms & Ammunition Import Licensing Arrangements 2013" from the UK's Import Licensing Branch (ILB):

Antique Firearms

Firearms over 100 of years of age currently do not require an import licence to import into the UK as they are considered to be antiques.

Obviously, any Spencer would be considered an antique under this definition. Although I cannot find the chapter and verse stating that parts for antique firearms are included in the definition, I believe it's a reasonable assumption.

Unfortunately that only gets us over the first hurdle, the Import License.   Next we face the challenge of the firearm license.

The bottom line is that if you want to own Spencer in the UK and shoot it on a fairly regular basis, you need to belong to a club that has access to the necessary facilities. Next, you'll need to apply to the local police for a rifle or shotgun certificate (handguns are banned in the UK).  To obtain a firearm license you will have to convince the local police that you don't "pose a threat to public safety and have a good reason to own the firearm."

Let me address those two requirements individually:

Threat to Public Safety

To determine if you pose a threat to public safety, the police "will conduct a number of checks which will usually include interviews, visits to the person’s property, criminal records checks and references from friends. In addition, the applicant’s GP may be contacted."

Good Reason to Own a Firearm

The guiding principle behind the requirement to have a “good reason” to possess, purchase or acquire firearms or ammunition, is that firearms are dangerous weapons and the state has a duty to protect the public from their misuse. In general, applicants should be able to demonstrate that they ‘use’ their firearm on a regular, legitimate basis for work, sport or leisure (including collections or research). [Source: British Home office "Guide on Firearms Licensing Law", November 2013.

Here is a link to the Home Office "Guide on Firearms Licensing Law":

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/262215/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_v6_Nov_2013.pdf

Believe me, the Guide will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about obtaining a firearm license in the UK.

[djossi@yahoo.com]

Unfortunately, I hit the Post button on the the message above before I was finished. As a result, I did not get to mention the last hurdle which is the tariff imposed on firearm parts imported into the UK.

According to UK Tariff XIX (Arms and ammunition: Parts and accessories thereof;), a Value Added Tax of 20% is levied on firearm parts imported into the UK. An additional tariff of 2.7% will also need to be paid because the shipment originates outside the European Union.

Using a base value of $90 for the breech block, that means that Perry will have to pay an additional $20.43 to get it through UK customs. That's assuming I've got my facts straight. If Perry accepts my offer, we'll get to find out.

For more information on the VAT tax and UK tariffs go to:https://www.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/9305200000#import

[Perry Owens]

First of all may I thank all you guys for the research you are doing and the offers of help you have made.
Several forum members offered to mail me a breech block, for which I thank them, but I can't ask anyone to risk a heavy fine, or worse, on my behalf.
Another member kindly sent me a blueprint for a block that he makes. I have a lathe and a mill is on order so I am pricing up the tooling I would need to make my own. I have to say that at the moment it is looking like an expensive option for a one-off.
Then along came Dave with an offer to export a block legally. I would have no problem importing a block as, even if Customs ruled that it is a  part of a firearm I already have a centre fire converted Spencer on my firearms certificate so I can call it a spare part for that. I also have several friends who are registered firearms dealers who could take delivery. Costs would be duty and value added tax, the two amounting to about 25% of value. I was about to take up Dave's offer when...
Last night the wife said " I think we should go back to Long Island this summer". We lived and worked there from 2003-8 and made many friends. S&S are on Long Island of course, so I could reserve a block to pick up when I arrive. I could then mail it back home or chance it in checked baggage.
I need a little time to think things through so please bear with me.

Perry Owens

[djossi@yahoo.com]

You said the magic words -- you already have a firearms certificate that includes your Spencer.  According to the HM Revenue and Customs website:

People are not allowed to bring component parts of guns into the country, unless they have a licence for the firearm for which the parts are intended.
All firearms must have a police shotgun licence or Firearm Certificate as individual gun parts can be put to several uses...

Link to HM Revenue and Customs website: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/banned-restricted/illegal-weapons.htm

A similar statement can be found in the Home Office Guide on Firearms License Law:

As a concession for personal non-commercial import of privately owned firearms, shotguns and ammunition the following documents are accepted by HM Border Force in lieu of import licences:

      (i) valid United Kingdom firearm or shotgun certificates..."

Link to the Guide: http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_PROD_008051

IMHO that means that you would need to declare the item when you return to the UK, present your firearms certificate, and pay the 20+% duty in order to get through customs. Failure to do so, should customs search your luggage and find the item, could cost you up to 10 years prison.

Based on the retail value of the breech block, $180, you would need to pay customs approximately $40. Since you will also need to use the Red line (for those bringing restricted items into the UK) in order to clear customs at the airport, declaring the item might also cost you a little time.

Since GFI is willing to declare the value of the breech block to be less than $100 (I'll use $99 for purposes of calculating the import duty), the cost of having the part shipped to you would be approximately $82 more than what you will pay if you bring it through customs yourself. Again, the cost of having the part shipped to you is:

     US ITAR Export Fee       $50.00
     Shipping                          $50.00
     Import Duty.                     $22.00
     Total.                              $122.00

Having the part shipped you might also require additional time and effort. However, I haven't been able to determine when and where you'll need to present your firearm license in order to have the breech block delivered.

The bottom line is that it will cost you $40 to bring the part back yourself or $122 if you have it shipped to you. Both of those options will also entail some level of time and effort.

Of course there is the option of bringing it back and not declaring it, but the choice between paying $40 and spending a little time getting through customs or risking 10 years in prison seems somewhat cut-and-dried to me.

Before I close, I want to make sure everyone knows that I am not an expert in any of these matters. I believe that the information I've provided is accurate, but if you are going to act on it please double-check with the appropriate UK government agency.

Finally, I have a favor to ask, Perry. If you do decide to buy the part while you're here and carry it back with you, I'd very much appreciate it if you would give me a brief description of what was involved in getting it through customs and what you had to pay to cover the VAT and any tariffs. The reason I ask is that I'm going create a series of FAQs regarding the importation of firearms and firearm parts into the UK.

Thanks!

Dave J.

[Perry Owens]

Dave,
If you ship firearms or parts thereof to the UK accompanied what happens is that they are held by customs at the entry point free of charge until you go along and produce the correct documentation and pay the fees. When I came home after 5 years in the US I shipped 11 antique firearms which do not require a UK license. The crate was delivered to my house unopened and there were no taxes because they were personal possessions. The 9 firearms I also bought while in the US were held by a shipper in Colorado until I could get my UK license back, at which point he shipped them with his export license. When they arrived at the Fedex depot at London Airport I went along and waved my firearm certificate at them and took the guns.
With regard to going into the customs red channel to fess up - Flights from the US get into London very early in the morning. Last time I did that I had a Pelican case full of dies, moulds, sights etc, etc. I had all the receipts and my credit card at the ready but the place was empty. Thinking they were watching me on CCTV I hung around for a while then spied a telephone on the wall. I picked it up and voice asked what I wanted. I told him I had dutiable items to declare. " Are they for personal use?" he said. " Yes". "off you go then..."
Good luck with your FAQ on UK firearms law. What you will quickly find is that, because the law is administered by the Chief Constable of each county or city there is no consistency in its application.

Perry Owens

[Blair]

Perry,

My German Customer bought a custom built M-1862 "copy" of a Fayetteville Rifle from me.
When it arrived in Germany, Customs notified the buyer to come and pick it up. (all prearranged stuff)
When the buyer got to Customs, the package was opened for inspection. The Inspectors were so taken with what they found... they let him have the container and contents.
Given the 5 to 6 hour difference in time between Germany and the US, my buyer calls me on the phone, I was not sure if he was laughing like crazy, or crying!
I was worried at first, but then he explained... Customs let him have the item without any of the suspected additional $300 + charges!

But, like I said, that was a few years ago... and various Agents in various situations can pretty much do what they feel the law says.
How much this has changed over those few years, I can't began to say.
All I am suggesting is find out what you can, and cover as many bases as you can.
My best,
Blair

[Ibgreen]

Not to delve off topic, but I am glad to live in an area of the US where we don't have to deal with all that red tape.......................YET!

[djossi@yahoo.com]

The law makes it pretty clear that the local police chief is the decision-making authority when it comes to obtaining a firearms certificate in the UK.

First of all, that's where you need to submit an application for the certificate:

An application is made in accordance with Section 26 (a) of the 1968 Act as amended by Section 37 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997;

     Section 26 (a):

        (1) An application for the grant of a firearm certificate shall be made in the prescribed form to the chief officer of police for the area in which the applicant resides and shall state such particulars as may be required by the form.

Second, s/he is the one who decides if you are fit to own a firearm:

Section 27(1) of the Firearms Act 1968 states that:

‘A firearm certificate shall be granted where the chief officer of police is satisfied—
    
     (a) that the applicant is fit to be entrusted with a firearm to which section 1 of this Act applies and is not a person prohibited by this Act from possessing such a firearm;

     (b) that he has a good reason for having in his possession, or for purchasing or acquiring, the firearm or ammunition in respect of which the application is made; and

     (c) that in all the circumstances the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm or ammunition in his possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace.’

From what I've read, Parliament vested the authority for granting firearms certificates in the chief of each local police force because they felt that the local police are in a better position to determine whether an applicant, a local resident, should be allowed to possess a firearm or not.

Finally, s/he who giveth can also taketh away:

Once granted, a firearm certificate is typically valid for a five-year period. However, firearm certificates may be revoked if the person is:

• A danger to public safety or to the peace;
• Of intemperate habits;
• Of unsound mind;
• Unfit to be entrusted with such a firearm;
• A prohibited person under the Firearms Act; or
• No longer has ‘good reason’ for possession.

The problem, as I see it, is that the evaluation process is almost entirely subjective. It gives the police officer who reviews and approves or denies the application an almost unlimited number of reasons to deny it.

For example, if an applicant has ever been treated for depression, they must note that on the application form. Since the same section of the form includes a medical waiver, the police are allowed to contact the individual's General Practitioner (GP) and obtain his or her medical records.

Once the officer reviewing the application has spoken to the GP and obtained the medical records, the decision as to whether the applicant is fit to own a firearm or not will be based on that particular officer's opinions, emotions, and judgment. There's absolutely no way that the results will be consistent.

In other words, if there are a number of officers assigned to reviewing the applications, the chance exists that an applicant denied by one officer on the grounds of depression may well have been approved had another officer done the review. For example, in the case of someone who is treated for depression much earlier in their life, The decision as to whether they are of "unsound mind" is an incredibly subjective one.

I would bet that the number of applicants denied a certificate on the grounds of mental health increased considerably following the Dunblane school shootings in 1997 and the Cumbria shootings in 2010. My point being that the police officers reviewing the applications had to have been affected by those two events and I have to think they would've become more cautious and conservative in determining if someone was fit to possess a firearm if that individuals mental health was part of the equation.

All of this is an incredibly long-winded way of saying you're right, Perry. Trying to do a set of FAQs that included the application process for a firearm certificate in the UK would be challenging, to say the least. As a result, the FAQs that I am drafting assume that the individual has a firearm certificate. The focus will be on the ITAR process here in the States and the import permit requirements, VAT tax, and tariffs in the UK.

Finally, If anyone is interested in reading more about the firearms certificate process of the UK here is an excellent analysis of it done by the Law Library of Congress:

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/greatbritain.php

Given that the UK has some of the toughest gun-control laws in the world (as well as one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world), it actually makes very good reading. Believe me, it will give you a new appreciation for the freedom that we have in this country to purchase and own firearms.

[djossi@yahoo.com]

Having mentioned the strict gun-control laws of the UK and our Second Amendment in the same breath, I want to bring that discussion full-circle. And there is a link between the two as the rights of gun owners in the UK and those in the US stem from the same source, the English Bill of Rights of 1689.

The bill contains the following language aimed at protecting Protestants from disarmament by the Crown:

That the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law.

The same principle is, of course, enshrined in the Second Amendment. The question, then, is how did gun owners in the UK and the US end up at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of the right to own firearms?

In the UK, efforts at regulating firearms began in the 19th century:

Early acts regulating the ownership of firearms were fairly limited.  The Gun Licenses Act 1870 and the Pistols Act 1903 served primarily as Acts to generate revenue and required owners to hold a license from the post office.  The system was described as generally ineffective. In 1920, the Firearms Act was passed, to stop firearms from being used by criminals and “other evilly disposed or irresponsible persons.” While one aim of the restriction was to curb violent crime, it was believed that other reasons included concerns over uprisings in Russia spilling over into Britain, particularly with the end of World War I and the return of thousands of troops trained in the use of firearms and an increase in the number of such weapons in circulation.  This Act set out the basis for the licensing system of firearms that is still in operation today, providing the chief officer of police in the district the applicant lives with the authority to issue licenses.  When enacting this legislation, the right to bear arms by citizens was considered; however, “this was countered by the argument that such redress was adequately obtainable through the ballot box and by access to Parliament and the courts.” Further controls were introduced in 1937 to allow conditions to be attached to certificates and to place more stringent restrictions on particularly dangerous weapons such as machine guns.

Here's where it gets interesting. Although the UK definitely had placed greater restrictions on gun ownership by the middle of the 20th century, the differences between the two countries regarding the right of an individual to own a firearm weren't anywhere near as dramatic as they are today.  How, then, did we arrive at the current situation in which the UK has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world and the US some of the most liberal?

The key is the public and political reaction to the mass shooting incidents that occurred in each country. In the interest of brevity, I'm not going to list each of the individual incidents that occurred in the UK or the further tightening of gun ownership restrictions that followed.

As an example, however, the shootings that occurred in a Dunblane, Scotland elementary in 1996 resulted in

overwhelming public opinion that firearms should be banned from use by the civilian population.  The law did not introduce a complete ban on firearms, but served to essentially prohibit the private ownership of handguns in Britain.

The bottom line is that public reaction to each incident was so powerful that Parliament felt compelled to act and when it did, the opposition that arose wasn't enough to stop the imposition of the new restrictions.

Although efforts to impose greater restrictions on gun ownership were also made in the US in reaction to similar incidents, the end results were nowhere near as profound as in the UK. IMHO, the difference between the end results in the UK and the US stems from the fact that the level of public support for increased gun restrictions  in the US following each such incident was significantly less while the opposition to the proposed restrictions was far greater. 

I'll stop here as exploring the reasons why public attitude in the UK and US differs so much could fill volumes. But before I go here are some interesting statistics:

US
   Non-Military Firearms      ~310,000,000

UK
   Non-Military Firearms
      Legal*
        Rifles                                     475,000
        Shotguns                            1,300,000
            Total                                1,775,000

    Illegal Firearms                      ~3,000,000

*Handguns are, for all intents and purposes, band in the UK. There are only 15,000 handguns covered by firearm certificates of the entire country.

There are approximately 850,000 registered gun owners in the UK.

Finally, in the "Taking Things To Extremes" Department:

The British Olympic shooting team has to practice in Switzerland because the individual members are not authorized to own handguns in the UK. If you think I'm making this up:

http://nytimes.com/2012/08/01/sports/olympics/handgun-ban-after-1996-mass-shooting-hampers-british-olympian-georgina-geikie.html

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is a good source book;

TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, The Origins of an Anglo-American Right, 1994, Harvard Univ. Press, Joyce Lee Malcolm. ISBN 0-674-89307-7

The English Bill of Rights quoted above was part of the Act of Settlement, when William & Mary were "hired" to be Constitutional Monarchs in the UK.  The last part of DaveJ's quote was the Trojan Horse, added as an afterthought to gain assent.  The Landowners who ran everything felt that an unfettered right to bear arms would lead to rampant POACHING!!!!!

"...and as allowed by law" allowed Parliament, controlled by those same land owners, to encroach on the clearly stated right.

[Blair]

Perry,

I am not sure I understand you correctly.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
You already have a Spencer with a CF conversion? All checked out and OK for use in the UK?
You are looking to get another CF block?
What is this new CF breach block, you are trying to get, going to be used for?

My best,
 Blair

[Perry Owens]

Blair,
I have an 1865 carbine already converted but the bore is not in great condition. I couple of years ago I purchased an 1867 carbine with a near mint bore and lots of original blue on barrel and receiver and it's that that I want to convert. I can't just swap the one breech block between the two guns as the one already fitted would need some filing to fit the other gun. It's always better to have two working Spencers than one.

Perry Owens

[Blair]

Perry,

Are both of these guns checked out through your UK certifications?
Blair

[Perry Owens]

Blair,
Ay present only the 1865 centre fire is on my license. This is because UK law allows the possession of an antique firearm as a " ornament or curiosity" without a license. It is only if you want to shoot it does it need to be licensed. When I convert the 1867 I will apply to have it entered on to my license. Unlike in the USA, replicas of antique firearms cannot be held without a license, whether fired or not.

Perry Owens