Modified Lee Moulds, 450 or 500 - Bullet Photos w/specs on Page 2

[Crazeyiven]

Black River Smith-

Good!  Glad it was just a misunderstanding!

I'm with you through paragraph 2.  Yes, right!

However, in paragraph 3 I think I see where the problem starts.

My bullets never slide up over the tip of the extractor.  When it jams, the nose of the bullet is hard up against the extractor.  It does not appear that the bullet is tipped up enough to clear the extractor.  The exception to this is the cut down 450 gr bullet.

At this point I do not know exactly where the jam is originating.  It feels like it is with the bullet trying to be chambered, but, it could be jamming on a bullet in the magazine.

Yesterday I had some time and made up some of the Lyman bullets to an OAL of 1.620.  With brisk action I could get the rifle to cycle.  However, there was still a small gouge to the flat point of the bullet, but it did feed with little trouble.  I put the dummy rounds in the mag.  The first was a bit stickey and nicked the nose flat a bit.  The second was really smooth.  The last one good too.

Going to print this and French Jack's comments and see if I can be a bit more observant of the timing of the action cycle.

Will update later, perhaps tonight if I get a chance to work on it.

Thanks again for the help.

David

[French Jack]

Ivan, as the breech block rolls forward, it forces the extractor into the groove under the chamber.  This action drops the height of the extractor enough to allow the bullet nose to ride over the extractor, and enter the chamber.  If the extractor is not dropping enough, the tip will certainly obstruct the bullet nose.  I suspect that this is the spot where the bullet nose is gouged.  Mine have NO markings from the extractor or the bullet guide on the lead.  I believe that I would check the extractor to make sure that it doesn't have a burr or that the spring is not sticky.  You might also check to see if the groove under the chamber is not milled incorrectly, allowing the extractor to stay high through the cycle. 

I still am convinced that there is something not right about the extractor fitting on your gun.

[Fox Creek Kid]

FWIW, my 56-50 Armisport had an awful burr as French Jack described when new. I had to polish the extractor groove AND the cutout at the bottom of the chamber with a lot of crocus cloth. Think of it like a feed ramp on a 1911 Colt. This may be your problem. Run your finger (gently!!) over the bottom of the chamber at the extractor cutout for burrs.

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[Crazeyiven]

Gentlemen-

Printer all this out this afternoon and sat down with the gun and 7 shells.

I think I assumed some things and left something out.  The bullet is jamming down in the action before it is really visiable.

But, I think I found something.  I cycled the action, empty.  Everything seemed to go as everyone indicated.  I also check the face of the extractor and it feels very smooth and moves up and down with out any sign of binding.

Then I loaded 1 round and started the action through slowly.  Within just a few degrees of the upward swing of the lever it locked up.  I pushed the lever all the way back down and lifted up the forked ctg guide.  While holding the guide up I cycled the action and it did just as everyone described, smoothly.  I've not done this before.

So I started messing with the ctg guide.  When all the way down it takes quite a bit of pressure to lift it.  Then, just a bit before it it level (say 60-70 % of its arc) it sort of hangs, clicks then moves on up with a bit less effort and more smoothly.  It kind of sounds and feels like something is catching or binding (maybe the spring) in the housing.  I thought at first that it might be catching on the frame, but can find no sign of that.

Could the ctg guide exert enough pressure in the very early stages of feeding to keep the bullet nose locked on the extractor too long?  That looks like what may be happening.  It seem like one of you had make that suggestion earlier on in this thread, but could could not find it right off.  I suspect that the ctg guide should move smoothly throught out it arc.  Right?

If I should need to disassemble this and do some cleaning, what am I going to find in this area?  Flat spring, coil spring, any thoughts on disassembly, reassembly (I still remember stripping down my M1 carbine block - without the tool!).

As always, thanks for any help or suggestions.

David

[Two Flints]

Crazeyivan,

Best I can do is direct you to this old thread which has a schematic diagram of the Taylor Spencer 56-50 and also a parts list for same. 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,8837.0.html

I own the .45 Schofield Spencer so can't advise on the 56-50, although you've been getting some great feedback from several members so far!

Two Flints

[Crazeyiven]

Two Flints-

Thanks for the link.  Will print it out and look it over.

Also, ditto about the quantity and quality of help from other memembers!

I appreciate it all!

David

[French Jack]

Ivan, the guide should have consistent pressure and smooth travel.  Mine you can easily lift with your finger, no sign of binding.  It sounds as if the arm has a burr on it inside the frame.  It sounds as if the piston is binding -- perhaps the guide arm needs to be smoothed at the end, or the piston is sticking under pressure.  If you remove it, be careful not to let the spring or piston escape, as it will be under some pressure. 

[Black River Smith]

Iven,

I will agree with FJ here.  My 3 paragragh was with only one bullet in mag.  With only the one bullet it should go through a complete cycle using only slow movement and you should experiece no binding/stoppage.  Even with the 500 gr., as I was using in my cycling description.

With two or more you will get always (I believe) binding and/or stoppage.  And I believe that it is due to the pinching of the second or following bullet.  And you will experience this until the 'last' bullet.

So I would agree with FJ.  Take the forked bullet guide out and check it for incomplete machining or burrs or something.  But watch the spring and separate little pin-like plunger.  Make certain the plunger slide back into the recess.  I have had to push it in place with a thin blade after re-assembling, on some occasions.

Once again what is your OAL for these experimental bullets?  And since (I am guessing here) they are not cut down (yet???) are they causing case bulging?  And could this be causing/creating/effecting what you are observing?

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack & Black River Smith-

Thanks for the help.  I will pull the bullet guide out and check it, the recess, spring and pin.  I am new here...we are talking about part #11 (Cartridge keeper lever) on Two Flints chart?

The bullets that I have had some success with at this point are the Lyman 330 gr bullet.  The OAL is 1.62.  This puts the crimp in the middle of the front driving band, just below the crimping groove.

The Lyman is as moulded.  No case bulging.  When I tried the 450 Lee, uncut, it went in with no problem or bulging.  The 500 was a bit long, uncut, and took a bit more pressure to set.  I was concerned about messing up a case so I took both out, cut them down (the actual bullet) with the xacto razor saw.  All cases were resized.  The Lyman crimping die was not working well (at all) so ran the bullets back through the sizer die with the bullet.

I have since taken a hack saw and file to the sizer die (another thread!).  I then re did all the dummy shells with new, cut off bullets.  No real change.

The first three bullets I tried were the 450 lee cut off, the 500 lee cut off and the 350 BAC.  In very first test I ran each of these through the mag individually.  First was the 350 BAC bullet @ an OAL of 1.62, as I had 50 of them loaded.  With just one bullet (dummy) in the gun, it did the nose flat gouging, really bad (1 slot from the nose flat down the side of the bullet).  Next was the cut off lee 450 also at 1.62.  When I ran the action I thought the action had missed the bullet.  Opened the action and there it was!  Nice and unmarred!  The third was the lee 500 gr @ 1.62.  It hung, not as bad as the BAC, but did have some (1) nose flat gouge.

One last question.  How does the pin and spring work on the bullet guide.  It is just riding on the short end of the guide or is it in a dent like a trapdoor ejector?  I'm guessing the former?

Guys, thanks again for your time.  Tax season ends tomorrw.  Hope to get a few minutes to work on this again.

Thanks

David

[French Jack]

Something else that might help in the feeding with more than one round in the magazine-- if you have access to a Dremel tool, put in a small drum sander, and break the sharp edges of the block at the top above the firing pin, and the rear of the upper block, then break the edges of the lower block.  The small sanding drum will go down into the groove in the block and just take a tiny amount off the edges, which will allow them to push the following round out of the way easier. 

The forked bullet guide is held in place by a screw that is inserted from the left side of the action.  The plunger and spring are held in by the guide.  When you remove the screw, ease it out and cover the guide/plunger/spring area with a cloth to trap the parts and keep them from going orbital.  You will have to depress the plunger and spring into the recess when putting the guide back in place.

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack-

Got it out without any orbital launches.

Did not find anything glaringly wrong with it.  Polished up the sides and the contact surfaces.  Cleaned the spring with one of those green dish scratcher by Scotch.  Lightly greased the parts, sprinkeled some powdered graphite on the grease and put it all back together.  Smoother but still just a hint of catching...think the spring may be rubbing against something in the frame.

A bit smoother.

Bullets are all chewed up from all the times it did not work.  Going to pour some more and try again.

Going to try the next batch with wheel weights.

Thanks again,

David

[Crazeyiven]

Just thought of something-

This may be a bit more under the trigger heading, but here goes.

I have several books by Croft Barker.  Most of these books, that I have, deal with, mainly, original guns.  Especially 50-70's, 43 Spanish and rolling blocks.  In several of these books he talks about cleaning the parts with break free then lubricating the contact points for the mainspring, hammer, sear, etc.  He suggests applying gun or axel grease to these parts and then sprinkling powdered graphite over the grease.  He indicates that he has measured 2 pound reductions in trigger pull and faster lock times.

This may be an old remedy that everyone knows but it was new to me.  I've tried it on several of my other guns and have found Mr. Barker's observations to be very true.

Thinking some may want to try this with the Spencer action.  I am going to when I get more time.

Again, thanks to all for your help and input.

David

[French Jack]

The Tetra-Lube works really well.  You may have a bur in the recess that is catching the spring, or the piston slightly.  I use a Swiss needle file to smooth out such spots.  It could work itself out with use.  I use a 1-30 alloy for my bullets, some I even use pure lead with a smidgen of tin to make casting easier.  No problems.  Hope you get your snags worked out.

[Crazeyiven]

Quick question-

I have been reluctant to strip the block down.  I was wondering if the bullet feed ramp is stationary (does it move up and down within the block) when the lever is cycled?

It would appear that the nose of the bullet would be more inclined to go over the extractor if it were a bit taller.

I know that I need to call Taylors.  However, I would have to call during the day, which means taking it to work (in case of questions from service).

Going to try a couple more things.  No success, going to have to do it or stay home one day.

Thanks again.

David

[Black River Smith]

Ok, I am acting stupid here.  What are you call the bullet feed ramp?  Is that the humped piece centered in the block behind the Lane extractor.

If yes, then No it does not move, it is stationary.  Two pins hold it in place.  The back edge of the Lane extractor fits under it and it acts as a stop for the spring action of the Lane.

Don't be afraid of taking this gun apart.  It was simply made and as long as you keep track of your steps, it goes right back together.  The block and lever come out with just that one big lever screw.  It goes right back in just as easy.  If you shoot BP you will be taking it apart to clean.  Believe me,,, you will have to.  I did not anneal my cases and I had blowback.  It never stops up the functioning but the block needed to be stripped and cleaned.

[French Jack]

The block is easily dismantled-- press down slightly on the upper block and remove the small screw at the base of the post.  This allows you to lift off the upper block and the spring that acts on it.  You will need to do this once in a while to thoroughly clean the lower block where the upper block meets it. ( The vertical area behind the upper block.)  You may also need to remove the firing pin slide and oil/clean the firing pin to keep it from sticking.  Just make sure the slide screws don't work loose while in use, or you will get some erratic/light firing pin strikes.  The 'bullet ramp" is the narrow bright finish piece that is set into the block where the extractor blade is hung.  The actual part that is the primary factor in feeding is the bullet guide, the fingers that project from the receiver out over the block.  The type of feed is considered to be an 'uncontrolled' feed, as the round is loose while moving from the magazine to the chamber, only nominally held in place by the bullet guide and the interior dimensions of the action.

In this type of feeding, the bullet length and ogive (shape of bullet nose) has a tremendous amount to do with feeding reliability.

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack-

Thanks for the instructions.  Will give it a try.

The bullet ramp.  Is it fixed within the block or does it move with lever action?

Thanks again for you help here and on my many previous questions!

David

[French Jack]

The 'ramp' is fixed within the block.  It does not move at all, the block moves through an arc, and as the 'ramp' is curved, it also has a certain arc of travel.  A thought, you might measure the height above the block of the ramp, I am curious about this measurement, perhaps it may be different from mine or BRS-- if so could explain why bullet nose is being trapped against the Lane extractor.

[Crazeyiven]

Black River Smith-

Please excuse me.  I totally missed your post.  I was in a hurry, scrolled down to my last post on page 4 and totally missed it.  I went back this morning, and wonder how that post got in there, in the middle of the others! 

Anyway, thanks for the response and the information.  You correctly assumed the part I was referring to and did answer my questions.  I will also get the measurement that French Jack mention and post it later today or this weekend.

Again, sorry for my confusion.  I thoughly appreciate your time, answers, patience and help!

David

[French Jack]

Just out of curiosity, checked the extractor and ramp on my carbine:  the ramp is .150" at it's highest point.  the extractor is .162" at it's highest.

 I checked with a single round, and as the round is fed onto the block by the magazine spring, the bullet nose contacts and is stopped by the extractor hook.  Rotating the block forward, as the lever is raised to close the action, the cartridge is pushed forward by the upper block, in contact with the extractor.  As the bullet guide ( the fingers ) press down on the cartridge, it centers the cartridge and slows it to allow the extractor to move away from the bullet nose.  At the same time the extractor is being depressed as it enters the extractor groove on the bottom of the chamber.  At this point, as it leaves the bullet nose, I get a very faint rub mark on the meplat of the bullet.  No gouges, no gashes.  There are no marks left from the guide as it slides back over the bullet.  As the round enters the chamber, the rim is forced out from under the guide, which drops quickly, causing the round to jump forward into the chamber.  Breech block lines up with recess and the upper block springs upward locking the action.

That's what I see happening on cycling a round through my carbine.  Overall length of a round is 1.514".  This is with the Lyman 515139 bullet crimped into front driving band.Feed is smooth, bullet nose undamaged.  I use 1/30 alloy to cast bullets.  This is a soft bullet.  With the LBT bullet, OAL is 1.550", weight of the bullet is 360 gr..