Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => BROW => Topic started by: Coal Creek Griff on June 20, 2011, 06:44:25 PM
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I’m still very much in the planning stage, so please don’t spend a great deal of time with your answers—I’d feel bad if someone devoted a lot of time when I’m a long way away from this purchase.
I’m starting to save for a Sharps rifle. This may be several years away, but I’m trying to think through the caliber and configuration I’d like. I don’t plan to compete with this gun. This gun would be just for my own enjoyment. I’d like to have what would have been a “typical” buffalo gun of the era. I realize that “typical” may be hard to nail down since there were so many different types, but I’ve pretty much settled on an 1874 Sharps.
Imagine that you were called on to be a buffalo hunter re-enactor. For your rifle, you’d want to avoid some of the cartridges that were introduced after the buffalo hunting period, etc. You might not choose a rifle configuration that was mainly designed for and used in shooting competitions, even though such guns probably made their way onto the plains. You would probably avoid a gun that was too expensive, with lots of silver or fancy wood, etc. You would want to choose the type of gun the average hunter might have chosen—nothing special. That’s the gun I’m after.
As far as caliber, I’m drawn to the larger (.45 plus) bore, although I’m flexible on that if history dictates it. I reload and cast, so I don’t need to be able to pick up a box at the local Wal-Mart either. I’m kind of drawn to the .50-90 caliber because of its legendary status, but I’d like opinions. I know that .45-70 is very popular these days and I already cast and load that caliber, but it’s so…I don’t know, ordinary. If that was “typical”, though I’d be willing to go that route.
This is all speculative at this point, but I’d love to hear from the knowledgeable folks here. I also haven’t spent much time reading the books on the topic yet, since most of them are a significant investment on their own. I’ll get there, though. If there are some books that I should look for first, I’d love to hear about them. (Since I’m so early in the process, perhaps we can avoid the import vs. domestic argument that has been so thoroughly covered elsewhere.)
Thanks, ladies and gents.
CC Griff
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Get ahold of the Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters , there's a wealth of information in those.
Several cartridges were popular, 50-90,44-77,44-90, and even the 40 bottle necks had their following. The big 45 caliber Sharps came at the end, but were highly sought after when they did come out. So much so that many a 50 and 44 were rebarrelled.
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If your heart is set on a Sharps I have no opinion, but if you want a truly elegant single shot rifle noted for accuracy, look at a Ballard No. 5 "Pacific" in whatever caliber you choose.
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From what I've read the big 50 was the most popular on the frontier for dropping the buffalo. In Billy Dixon's book he says nothing but praise for it.
Personally, I thoroughly enjoy the 45 calibers. I own two, both italian replicas, and of course I'm dreaming about a Shiloh or two. My pedersoli's are great guns though, they shoot better than me, which actually says alot if you knew my background.
I'd personally start off with the 45-70. The cases are the cheapest of the bunch, and it doesn't carry a ton of powder. It's a very economical big-bore. It's also very modifiable as far as powder goes. Smokeless works, any range of BP works. Plus my big girl goes out to 500 yards no problem, in 45-70. It's when you go out way beyond that the bigger powder numbers and bigger grain bullets come in handy. But, you always got to start slow.
I'd actually start off with a .22. Now, hear me out. I don't know your rifle background. A .22 will teach you all the fundamentals you will need for the big buff rifles. I've shot mine with great groupings out to 250 yards. Plus it still has the feel of the buff rifles, and at only $300! It's a savage stevens takedown. Basically a baby version of the winchester high-wall.
Personally I love all the single-shot rifles of that period. But my favorite is the old work horses in the Winchester and Sharps. But that, again is totally personal preference. I'd go 45-70 though, if you've already shot good groupings past 100 yards, it'll grow with you.
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(http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo129/Boge_1960/Firearms/IMG_0071.jpg)
Shiloh 16 lb. 50-90.
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Interesting ...
Mike Venturino's book 'Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the old West' was suggested to me, and he repeatedly makes the remark that a buffalo rifle could be anything over .50 Cal and 70 grains powder ... the .45-70 being kinda an exception to the rule. He also makes the point that although the Shapes was thought of as the quintessential 'buffler gun' that many buffs were downed with cap and ball and flintlocks ... and that the 1885 Brownings, both hi-wall and lo-wall, cannot be thought of as buffalo guns cause the buffalo were not really around in large numbers by 1885.
But it has to be said that a lot of buffalo were downed by single shot muzzleloaders and Remington Rolling Blocks ....
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Some years ago an archeological dig was conducted at the Adobe Walls site.Circa 1874 the following calibers among others were found as complete,fired,or unloaded casings:
.44-77
.44-90
.45 U.S.Gov't.
.50-70 U.S.Gov't.
.50-90
It's a pretty good list of common calibers for the hunters in that area in 1874.
Some existing pictures of known hunters show them with Sharps and Remington military type rifles.Other pictures of surviving rifles are much like the heavy barreled plain rifle like Fox Creek Kid's picture.I've shot a .50-90,it takes a heavy rifle like that or the recoil is brutal.
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In the classic 'professional' sense, FCK's rifle would be the way to go. But 16lbs IS heavy. Heck my heavy barrel Bridgeport weights in at 12 something.........and it is not a comfortable 'walk around with' rifle.
They use Sharps military rifles. I have a 45-70 '74 military rifle and love it. Call me insane, but I want the same 'military rifle in 50-70gvt.
Is there a rule saying its a sin having two guns so much alike ? :)
MD
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JimBob,
I was at Adobe Walls spring 2010, and because of my major in school, and luck through family I was able to meet with, drink coffee and check out actual artifacts with the West Texas Plains Museum Archaeologist! It was amazing. I remember seeing some of those very cartridges. He thought it was awesome that my uncle and I went all the way out there to see it. When he saw my uncle, it was hillarious, he just said "yep, you're related all right."
Anyways, the big 50-90 is an epic gun. But heavy, and bucks like a mule. I personally have shot beautiful 8" groupings with my 45-70 at 500 yards, off-hand. Basically I was saying if Griff wanted to purchase a gun that was fun to shoot today, with affordable casings, and could go out beyond the sticks, the 45-70 would be a great, and historically accurate choice.
And Marshall, a military rifle in 50-70 isn't insane, it's wicked awesome! I'm actually wishing and saving for an 1874 military with the full stock and 3-band from Shiloh. I figure she's close enough to my Berdan 3-band, and could "pass" for an old Berdan that was converted to cartridge. I'm also hoping the full stock helps with the kick! ;D
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...I'm also hoping the full stock helps with the kick! ;D
It doesn't. The wood forearm weighs little. I have a Shiloh 50-70 Military Rifle as well & the recoil is more manageable than a 50-90 (obviously).
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Bill Cody made his "name" with a M-1866 trapdoor in .50-70.
Sometime after 1873 the .45-70 became a popular round because of the availablity of military cartridges
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Great info, gents. I really appreciate the historical perspective.
CC Griff
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The single best book I would recomend on the rifles would be Sharps Firearms by Frank Sellers.Chapter 20-On the Plains has lots of information on calibers and rifles shipped and used during the period.Calibers and type of rifle varied depending on the area.In generally speaking the most often used Sharps rifle specifically for buffalo hunting in the 1871-84 period was the Sporting Rifle,weighing over 12 pounds,with double set triggers.But as Sellers points out different areas and periods had different preferences but that type rifle would have been common over the entire era in most areas.
A little on cartridges:
The earliest chambering in .50 caliber was the .50 1 3/4 in.(.50-70) in the New Model 1869.The .50-90 was introduced mid 1872.After 1876 the .50 caliber chamberings were only special order and production of cartridges by the Sharps Co. itself was discontinued.The high water mark for the "Big Fifty"was pretty much the 1872-75 period.
Two old standard works on the buffalo hunting period are "The Buffalo Hunters" by Mari Sandoz and "The Great Buffalo Hunt" by Wayne Gard.Your local library may have them or be able to get them on loan.Both are good reads on the period and people.
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I would like to join the choir singing the praises of the mighty .45-70. It's easy to get to shoot well, more than authentic (but you have to call it the .45- 2 1/10 ;) ), and relatively readily available. Pictured below is my Shiloh #1 Sporting model Heavy Barrel in .45-90. I bought it third hand and love it to bits, but really wish It was a .45-70. It is incredibly accurate (the photo was taken just after a very successful range session), but kind of expensive to feed and get brass for. Short version is - keep it simple.
(http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac33/winchester1876/photo025.jpg)
(http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac33/winchester1876/photo026.jpg)
To get something more exotic like the .44-77, .50 calibres, and so on requires lots of money and loading experience. I had to laugh once. I was in Big Timber at the Shiloh Rifle plant. A fellow from Kansas was there picking up an in-stock rifle chambered in .40-65. He said to me "Well I had my heart set on a big .45-110 (which was in stock), but every time I got the ladies on the phone, they kept talking me down in calibre." He was a total beginner and I told him it was for the best and he'll enjoy that .40-65 much more than a 110 that would kick the daylights out of him. Best of luck to you.
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The Sharps# 3 sporting rifle is indeed what you need to look the part of a professional hunter. 50 X 2 1/2" is the cartridge for your stand out rifle and a #2 heavy barrel of 30 " long will hold the recoil down to a level most shooters can handle. Sliver blade front sight and sporting rear barrel sight is what you see in most period photos. Butt plate could be the rifle type or a steel shotgun which is a bit better for prone shooting. If you order a Shiloh get the bone case color as the way they do the standard case looks out of place. My 50 calibre brass has lasted for may reloads so cost isn't too bad and good groups aren't hard to come by.
Pretty rifle Short Knife Johnson, much like my 45 X 2.1" sights and all!
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/JKilts/cowboy/all004.jpg)
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Much like Shortknife has said, I own a 45-70 bought and paid in Prescott at a small gun store that has all sorts of fun things. Bought my 45-90 there as well. Both need new stocks but the actions in them are really nice and I'm good with wood workin. I have fired the 45-70 though and I've got to admit, nothing better than the "bang for buck" for that one.
Doing the math on the 45-90, it's amazing to see that just for 20 grains more of powder you pay twice as much almost. About 80 cents versus 45 for the Mil-spec loading (45-70-405) of the 45-70.
It's mainly in the brass too, but I sure love those babies that are as big as my finger when they're seated with the 555gr pp bullet!
There is something about a Shiloh though, man oh man, if I ever get my hands on one of those
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The 45-70 was not as rapidly adopted as many think by commercial makers as repeaters ruled the roost apart from serious hunters. The Buffalo hunters preferred something a little heavier at this time and Sharps NEVER loaded the 45 2.1 with a PP bullet larger than 420 gr. The military used the 405 gr. grease groove until the early 1880's when they switched over to a 500 gr. bullet. The first repeater utilizing the 45-70 was the 1881 Marlin. I think it was more of a gradual changeover to the 45-70 personally even though 45-70 was the most popular chambering in the Bridgeport era of Sharps production (1876 on) to be frank neither Sharps nor Remington sold many SPORTING rifles and both companies went teats up in the 1880's.
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The 45-70 was not as rapidly adopted as many think by commercial makers as repeaters ruled the roost apart from serious hunters. The Buffalo hunters preferred something a little heavier at this time and Sharps NEVER loaded the 45 2.1 with a PP bullet larger than 420 gr. The military used the 405 gr. grease groove until the early 1880's when they switched over to a 500 gr. bullet. The first repeater utilizing the 45-70 was the 1881 Marlin. I think it was more of a gradual changeover to the 45-70 personally even though 45-70 was the most popular chambering in the Bridgeport era of Sharps production (1876 on) to be frank neither Sharps nor Remington sold many SPORTING rifles and both companies went teats up in the 1880's.
Yep, that's why I said:Sometime after 1873 the .45-70 became a popular round because of the availablity of military cartridges
The government was giving cartridges to the Buffalo runners. The thought being that if the buffalo went away they'd be better able to control the indians. A lot of these cartridges were disassembled and the components were used to reload for the chambering that the runners already had. But a lot of other runners went ahead and bought their rifles in .45-70 and saved the effort.
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Yep, that's why I said: The government was giving cartridges to the Buffalo runners. The thought being that if the buffalo went away they'd be better able to control the indians. A lot of these cartridges were disassembled and the components were used to reload for the chambering that the runners already had. But a lot of other runners went ahead and bought their rifles in .45-70 and saved the effort.
The issuing of .45-70 Gov't ammo to citizen (civilian in today's parlance) buffalo hunters was the Army's method of destroying the Indian's "comessary" (sp?). Today, we call for air strikes on enemy supply lines and manufacturing facilities. It's called "strategic interdiction". From about 1874 (when the actual issue of M1873 Springfields got underway) until about 1885, government ammo used internally primed central fire gilding metal cases. Commercial companies such as Union Metallic and Winchester and Western Cartridge were making externally primed brass cased ammo in .45-70. But, where available, Army ammo would suffice providing the hunter didn't shoot too fast and get the chamber overheated to the point where the copper (gilding) cases jammed in the chamber. It also came in handy where a citizen might find himself in a firefight along side troops, such as at the Rosebud Battle 17 June 1876! There were also quite a few hunters who used rifles chambered for the .50-1-3/4" (.50-70 Gov't) cartridge, as prior to 1874, there was a lot of that ammo around, and after the Army changed to the .45-70, they were only allowed 3 rounds per man per month for target practice, foraging, etc. Sidney Barracks, NE, where Co's C, G and I of the 3rd Cav were stationed in that time period, had over 50,000 rounds of .50-70 on hand, and 5 Sharps carbines they were permitted to keep after being issued their Trapdoor Springfield carbines in early '74. It appears they used the 5 carbines for target practice, foraging, and to arm their citizen Quartermaster Dept. employees that went to the field with the troops.
The .50-70 brass is obtainable today, but is more expensive and scarce than .45-70. Personally, unless I were hunting buffalo for fun and profit, I'd stick with the .45-70.
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To quote Mike Venturino "Get your .45-70 FIRST!" Economical, accurate, easy to load and powerful enough, it will teach you everything you need to know about BP cartridges, has great flexibility should you wish to shoot smokeless (Blasphemy though that be) and should you still feel the need for the more exotic, can be rechambered for a longer .45 or traded/sold for another caliber once you have mastered it.
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While they don't get all the glory that a Sharps or Rolling Block gets, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more typical buffalo rifle than a .50-70 trapdoor Springfield. There were a lot of them compared to Sharps and RBs and there are many documented uses of them. You can buy a very nice M1866, or M1868 trapdoor for well under half the price of a Shiloh, and have the real deal. They are very shootable, parts are readily available and they carry real history.
I have both a Shiloh and a couple .50-70 trapodoors - I love them all. But I think the early trapdoors are often ignored by collectors and shooters today. But if they could talk - the stories they could tell.
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While they don't get all the glory that a Sharps or Rolling Block gets, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more typical buffalo rifle than a .50-70 trapdoor Springfield. There were a lot of them compared to Sharps and RBs and there are many documented uses of them. You can buy a very nice M1866, or M1868 trapdoor for well under half the price of a Shiloh, and have the real deal. They are very shootable, parts are readily available and they carry real history.
I have both a Shiloh and a couple .50-70 trapodoors - I love them all. But I think the early trapdoors are often ignored by collectors and shooters today. But if they could talk - the stories they could tell.
Absolutely! Plus you can use them for GAF shoots as well. ;)
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Id say theres not really such a thing as a typical buffalo rifle. The hunters were a diverse lot, some were able to prosper for years and some quit after the first hunt. You had market hunters, indians, and local settlers all killing buffalo during the period. Its been mentioned above some of the more ideal firearms used during he era, but depending on who you want to portray its almost hard to go wrong. Not every cowboy had a winchester 73 and not every buffalo hunter had a 16lb sharps, but at the same time we also know that some absolutely did!
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The 45-70 was not as rapidly adopted as many think by commercial makers as repeaters ruled the roost apart from serious hunters. The Buffalo hunters preferred something a little heavier at this time and Sharps NEVER loaded the 45 2.1 with a PP bullet larger than 420 gr. The military used the 405 gr. grease groove until the early 1880's when they switched over to a 500 gr. bullet. The first repeater utilizing the 45-70 was the 1881 Marlin. I think it was more of a gradual changeover to the 45-70 personally even though 45-70 was the most popular chambering in the Bridgeport era of Sharps production (1876 on) to be frank neither Sharps nor Remington sold many SPORTING rifles and both companies went teats up in the 1880's.
The Whitney-Burgess-Morse was the first .45-70 repeater in 1879. About 3,000 of them were made. Amazing gun. Marlins have a lot of Burgess in them and the guns work about the same. Whitney was old and tired and just couldn't get anything going with the big rifle. He tried the Kennedy and Scharff later, but they didn't sell well and the company finally sold out to Winchester.
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Thanks again, gents! I really appreciate all of these comments. I'll add that I already load an shoot one .45-70 (a Miroku Winchester 1886), so it is tempting to stick with that caliber. On the other hand, I'd like to branch out a little bit, hence the draw to other cartridges.
Please keep the comments coming. These are great!
CC Griff
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;) A person needs to walk softly about what is the "first repeater" the Winchester Hotchkiss rifle was chambered in 45 US Government in the mid 1870's as well.
I really don't think many if any of the hide hunters used the 45 US or the 45 2.1 sharps, the 50's and 44's would seem to be a bit more prevelant, and the 2 7/8 inch sharps was particularly popular in the norhtern ranges, as was the bigger 40's.
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;) A person needs to walk softly about what is the "first repeater" the Winchester Hotchkiss rifle was chambered in 45 US Government in the mid 1870's as well.
I really don't think many if any of the hide hunters used the 45 US or the 45 2.1 sharps, the 50's and 44's would seem to be a bit more prevelant, and the 2 7/8 inch sharps was particularly popular in the norhtern ranges, as was the bigger 40's.
The Hotchkiss is one of those forgotten rifles.The Sharps company was involved with the early sale and manufacture of the Lee bolt action repeater in the 1878-1880 period with about as much success as Winchester in selling a bolt action.
According to available information on the 1874 Sporting Rifle the most common caliber shipped during the Hartford period was the .44-77.During the Bridgeport period .45-70 or .45-2.1 if you prefer.Those big .50 and .45 2 7/8 caliber rifles are everybodies idea of a buffalo gun but there is a reason they are a rarity today,there just weren't all that many made.
I pretty much agree with all the others regarding what caliber to get for a first one,.45-70.Vast selection of bullets,stuffs everywhere to load for them.Compared to some of the other calibers except maybe the .50-70 it's a lot easier to get to shoot.Some of the bottleneck calibers are a nightmare to get them to shoot.
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During the "Bridgeport" era the standard chambering in the Sharps was the 45 2.1 for all the "sporting" rifles. The midrange guns were chambered in 40-70 and the Creedmoor and long range guns the standard was 2.4 longer chambers could be had for added cost. 44 and 50 calibers were still available but only on special order.
Whole heartedly agree the 45-70 is the "easiest" to get started with but may not be a real buffalo gun, the rest of them that were buffalo guns, aren't all that bad except for the added expense of cases.
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;) A person needs to walk softly about what is the "first repeater" the Winchester Hotchkiss rifle was chambered in 45 US Government in the mid 1870's as well.
I really don't think many if any of the hide hunters used the 45 US or the 45 2.1 sharps, the 50's and 44's would seem to be a bit more prevelant, and the 2 7/8 inch sharps was particularly popular in the norhtern ranges, as was the bigger 40's.
Yup, You're right. I was focused on lever guns.
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Get ahold of the Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters , there's a wealth of information in those.
+1 Bought Vol.1 recently.Good source of information on the hunters,what they used,the goods they bought,and the period.
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Volume 2 continues on in the same fashion. Really great reading in those, will be glad to see the rest of the series come up.
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Volume 2 continues on in the same fashion. Really great reading in those, will be glad to see the rest of the series come up.
Who's got Vol.2? Couple of places I checked only had vol.1 in stock.
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I believe Shiloh has it. I had the local used book store get one just a couple months ago.
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I'll check it out.Thanks. :) Like you I hope they finish the series out.Small town,no book stores here.
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The Military NEVER gave ammuniton to buffalo huntes nor settlers. That is just so much bunk based on the "infamous" speech by Phil Sheridan to the Texas legislature that NEVER happened.
http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/212/readings/buffalo-extinction.htm
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I'll check it out.Thanks. :) Like you I hope they finish the series out.Small town,no book stores here.
:D I don't know what possessed those folks to open their book store in Torrington, but I can tell you I am glad they did.. ;D :(Biggest problem was tho I didn't get in there in time with money to spare to buy one of the 6 or so of Seller's Sharps book. :'(
Anyway got to slipping thru the E-K edition tonite and Wyatt Earp used a SHOTGUN during his winter of buffalo hunting.
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(Biggest problem was tho I didn't get in there in time with money to spare to buy one of the 6 or so of Seller's Sharps book. :'(
Wow,I ran the Sellers book on one of the bookfinder sites,didn't realize they had gotten that expensiver. :o I bought my copy wehen they first came out,hard to realize it was that long ago.
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Thanks again for all the input. This has been very informative!
Maybe I’ll take everyone’s advice and end up with 30 rifles. ;)
CC Griff
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Maybe I’ll take everyone’s advice and end up with 30 rifles
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That's what I'm tryin' to do ! LOL
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I just bought my first Sharps today. I found a pristine C Sharps 1875 Classic model in 45-70 on Gunbroker for $1,250 and couldn't pass it up! It may not have quite the iconic look of the 1874 Sharps, but at the price I'm really looking forward to getting it in my hands and making smoke.
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Aggie, good purchase.,,,and good luck with the new rifle !
Pictures ??? please,,,inquirin' minds wanna look !
MD
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Congratulations! That's great!
CC Griff
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Those are nice rifles.
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The Military NEVER gave ammuniton to buffalo huntes nor settlers. That is just so much bunk based on the "infamous" speech by Phil Sheridan to the Texas legislature that NEVER happened.
Really? Can you say revisionist/apologist history? I based my statements on a book written in the early 20th century by an aging buffalo hunter who says that he received some of this government ammunition. I'd rather take the word of someone who was there than a historian separated from the great buffalo hunts by more than a century.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm (http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm)
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=4927.0;wap2 (http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=4927.0;wap2)
And so that this post isn't completely OT, he also discusses the buffalo rifles that he and people he knew used to kill Buffalo.
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I don't have the rifle yet - should get it early next week. Here are a few photos of it from the Gunbroker website. The only thing I will probably do is add a mid-range tang site and globe front. I predict lots of smoke in her future!
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/236512000/236512138/pix548496818.jpg
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/236512000/236512138/pix548228416.jpg
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/236512000/236512138/pix288788121.jpg
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The Military NEVER gave ammuniton to buffalo hunters nor settlers. That is just so much bunk based on the "infamous" speech by Phil Sheridan to the Texas legislature that NEVER happened.
http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/212/readings/buffalo-extinction.htm
Howdy, Pard,
Sorry, but I beg to respectfully differ with you about the "military NEVER" giving ammo to buffalo hunters nor settlers". Perhaps the Army didn't give ammo to buffalo hunters, but I have a photocopy of an order from either the CO Dept of the Platte or the Dept of the Dakotas authorizing issue of both arms and ammo to settlers for their protection from hostile Indians in those instances where the hostiles were "out" (off the reservation) and the Army couldn't leave detachments to defend individual families. I have it here in the house..somewhere...(haven't looked for it for years, but I know I have it!)
Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!
You obdt servant,
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Volume III ain't gonna hit the press until you galoots buy up all of Vol II.....so get to ordering!!!!! And thats a fact! These are chock full of info, not many printed , and guarantee you will be worth substantial premiums in the future. I calll em investment books kinda like those Skeeter Skelton, John Bivins, and Sellers wrote. I pretty proud of my hardback "Getting a Stand" by Miles Gilbert too.
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Volume III ain't gonna hit the press until you galoots buy up all of Vol II.....so get to ordering!!!!! And thats a fact! These are chock full of info, not many printed , and guarantee you will be worth substantial premiums in the future. I calll em investment books kinda like those Skeeter Skelton, John Bivins, and Sellers wrote. I pretty proud of my hardback "Getting a Stand" by Miles Gilbert too.
LOL It's ordered.A lot of those books bought years ago turned into a pretty good investment going by what some of them are bringing on the used book market.
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Howdy, Pard,
Sorry, but I beg to respectfully differ with you about the "military NEVER" giving ammo to buffalo hunters nor settlers". Perhaps the Army didn't give ammo to buffalo hunters, but I have a photocopy of an order from either the CO Dept of the Platte or the Dept of the Dakotas authorizing issue of both arms and ammo to settlers for their protection from hostile Indians in those instances where the hostiles were "out" (off the reservation) and the Army couldn't leave detachments to defend individual families. I have it here in the house..somewhere...(haven't looked for it for years, but I know I have it!)...
There were instances in CO & KS whereas the governors issued arms to state militias and ammo with federal approval, but they were billed for it. The post war military was on a shoestring budget until after the LBH when the public demanded an end to the hostile "question." The RR's managed through graft & corruption to obtain some arms as well and most were returned as junk. These were Spencers & some 1st Model Alin conversions in .58 Rimfire.
My point is that the vision many have of hordes of buffalo hunters & settlers getting free ammo not unlike welfare today is entirely wrong.
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I bought a 45/70 first and then got a Shiloh 45/90 when I really got into long range shooting. After a trip to adobe walls, Dodge City,
etc. I decided to rebarrel the 45/70 to a 16lb 50/90 mainly just for histoical purposes. I dableb with paper patch bullets without much
success and then ordered a Paul Jones mould and wow it shot about as good as the 45/90. The recoil will get your attention 650
grain bullet, but I've fired 25 rounds in under 10 minutes at an ncows buffalo shoot. As an old west fan that my favorite is the
buffalo hunting era, if you walked into Zimmermans hardware in Dodge City in 1874 looking for a buff gun you probably would
have gotten a 16lb big fifty. I shot a 1500 lb buff with the black powder 50/90 and it just doesn't get much better than that.
Whatever your choice, have fun with it!!!!!!
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Thanks again, gents. My first inclination had been the 50-90, and that still looks pretty good. As I said, I'm mainly after the historical experience and I kind of like heavy recoil--the sore, bruised shoulder just reminds me that I've been shooting.
I'm still a ways away from being able to afford it and 50-90's don't come up on the used market very often, so I'll keep dreaming and reading.
Ranch 13--I'm sure I'll be in your neighborhood again sometime before I'm ready to order. I'd love to sit down and talk rifles sometime.
Any further comments are most welcome!
CC Griff
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CC Griff ,give me a holler when you're headed this way.
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I was of pretty much the same mindset as you in this regards.
In my case I was fairly well aware of what rifles the Buffalo hunters used and had access to.
My thinking was that most serious hunters, by the time they had enough experience to order their 2nd rifle, used big rifles in the 14# to 16# class and early on chambered in the Sharps .50 2-1/2" case and later in .45 2-7/8" .
Being that I was already set up for loading and shooting big .45s, that's what I really wanted.
However having already waited for 5 years for my 1st Shiloh (in .45-70) had left me gunshy of wanting to order one that took "longer". (I know, they don't take that long today, but for the HB models, maybe?)
But on a trip that took me across Montana, a stop in Big Timber was "a must".
Stopping by Shiloh I didn't see anything that really caught my eye.
However, down the street, they had a wall of "ready to go" '74 Sharps rifles, and there sat that HB model in "plane Jane" configuration that I could just see as "the tool" a Buffalo Hunter would have wanted.
Trouble was it was a "Big 50". Of course I knew about these, but wait. What about the logistics? Yeah getting the supplies for one of those in the early 1870s might not have been a big deal, when you bought what you wanted for your rifle FROM Sharps. But what about now?!!
It is a jump. And there ARE differences. And "stuff" ISN'T as easy to locate and buy as it is for anything .45 Rimmed caliber and under.
Hmm...I'll have to take that under advisement.
So I go on my trip and I think about seeing that big Sharps. And it keeps eating at me..."Do I, or not?" This keeps eating at me.
Then I figure, "If it's still there when I go back through, I'll make my move."
Heading back towards home I once again pass through Big Timber. I stop and check. There it is. O.k., it's a done deal.
The day before in Miles City I'd seen this.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/Picture051.jpg)
An original, pretty much the same rifle, but this one in .45 2-7/8"
And here, sitting on the wall I'm looking at this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/Picture012.jpg)
It's sitting there, saying to me, "Take me home with you!"
So we walked out the door together. The friendly folks at C. Sharps Arms were able to set me up with much of the stuff I needed to switch over to loading .50 cal rimmed cases.
Once at home it took me ~2 months to locate and acquire the rest of what I needed to be able to cast bullets and size them, obtain a supply of .50-90 brass and a few other sundry items.
After all was said and done, it shoots GOOD (doesn't kick too much), is FUN to shoot, gets LOTS of attention when I take it out to shoot, and it's fairly authentic. ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/Sharps501-11-082-1.jpg)
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wow, nothing better than a Sharps, made in America, and in "big-50" ;D that's a beautiful rifle you have there. My favorite is hands down, the basic, clean business model.
Any chance of information on that tang sight you're using? It looks more military than the usual peep sights. I like the bigger sight picture, even though I know it can mess up accuracy at the crazy long ranges.
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Thanks again, gents. My first inclination had been the 50-90, and that still looks pretty good.
CC Griff
LOL I've found my first inclination to always be the best one.Go for it.Those big uns' surely do attract attention on the range regardless of what everybody else is shootin' that's for sure. ;)
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The Tang Rear Sight is a replica of Sharps' early model "Sporting Rear Sight", which is period correct for this rifle and the time the Big 50's would have been introduced.
There were 2 versions; this version with the sliding Sight Bar and a later version (I have that Staff also) that has a round sight disk that's adjustable for elevation and locks by tightening the disk.
These were made by Carmen Axtel's "Riflesmith" company that I think has been absorbed by Shiloh. I don't think that Shiloh has continued to produce these sights?
Axtel's made great replicas of all the BPCR sights by most of the original makers.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/SharpsSportingRearSight.jpg)
BTW, the Full Buckhorn Rear Sight would not have been period correct for a Big 50 Sharps.
Rifles of that vintage would have come equipped with the Lawrence Rear Sight, which isn't an option from C. Sharps Arms.
Trying to be period correct (in addition to the fact that the Full Buckhorn Rear Sight blocks out much of the target when the Sporting Rear Tang Sight is set in the 200-300 yard height) I acquired the correct style sight and it's mounted on the rifle now.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/PhilipEvans6-24-116-1-1.jpg)
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Thanks, Grogan, for your story and photos. Your rifle is pretty much what I have in my mind at this point, but I have quite a bit of saving to do before I could afford it. I'm not jealous. Really. Well...maybe just a little jealous.
CC Griff
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I have enjoyed everyones posts on this subject. I recently ordered a Shiloh thru Bill Goodman. It took about 5 months to get it built. It is a #1 Sporter, 30" Standard Heavy Full Octagon, with a patch box in 50-70. I ordered it with the thought in mind it would look somewhat like a military rifle that had been converted to cartridge. I have not had the opportunity to shoot it much, but it shoots pretty well and is a whole bunch of fun.
Is the Lawrence Sight, Grogan spoke of in his post, the one pictured in Grogans post or is it a different one.
2nd question what is the correct rear sight if the full buckhorn is not correct?
JR
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If you look closely at this photo of an original Sharps Buffalo Rifle, you'll see that this later one, in .45 2-7/8", has a Full Buckhorn Rear Sight on it.
I think the Lawrence style Rear Sights were supplied on the earlier vintage rifles (perhaps getting rid of Civil War stock?), while later you could get the Full Buckhorn style.
In my particular case the main reason for switching had a lot to do with the tall horns on the Buckhorn blocking out the target when using the Peep Sight at closer ranges. The small sighting notch on the Buckhorn is way down at the bottom of the sight and those tall horns block out lots of light as well as the target when using the Peep sight. ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/Picture054.jpg)
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As the replies taper off, let me once again thank those who posted. Your responses were very informative and helpful, not to mention interesting. Thanks!
CC Griff
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Just to add my two cents worth -- back in the late '80s I did a tremendous amount of research on buffalo hunters and what it would take to set up a proper outfit. I've got every book mentioned here that was published at the time, plus quite a lot that haven't been mentioned. Needless to say, I love to research.
So based on several years of books, microfilm and microfiche, visiting the various sites, different museums, etc., the conclusion I came to was a # 3 Sharps with a #1 heavy barrel (11-12lb rifle) and military butt stock, plain wood, and a rear tang sight such as Grogan supplied a photo of. I think it might have been Billy Dixon who said he shot as many buffalo with this type of set-up as he did with his 16lb rifle. The .50-70 and .44-77 seems to be the earliest and most popular cartridges with the hunters, which opens up Kansas and Texas if you are into re-enacting the period.
For what it's worth, Frank Mayer's book is considered suspect by historians, and I never found any reference to the government supplying ammunition to buffalo hunters for the purpose of promoting the hide trade.
Also for what it's worth, I went with the above set-up, but in a .45-70, which made it a lot easier and cheaper to reload for. And I'd also add that I regretted the military butt, especially for older shoulders. It kicks more than a shotgun butt.
Again, just my two cents worth, but I hope it helps.
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That does help. Thank you, sir.
CC Griff
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Caleb,,that is exactly one of the type of Sharps I have......a #3 with heavy barrel,,but in 45-90. The recoil from a 12lb rifle in 45-90 is nill. I indeed call it my 'buffalo rifle'....now if I could just afford a buffalo hunt. But, I've taken whitetails with it.
My other Shiloh is a '74military rifle but in 45-70.
Maybe a carbine some day..who knows.
MD
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I may end up with 30 rifles (original line to which the good marshal commented)
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That's what I'm tryin' to do ! LOL
The other day in the presence of my wife, my younger son commented I was running out of room in the gun safe. I am thinking oops Anne does not need to hear that.
Well Anne just says guess we need to get a bigger safe.
Is she a keeper or what.
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Yay Anne!
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Does she have alike minded and single sister?One who kayaks and cycles too? *G*
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Buffalo battery
Busted as well Anne came home and saw the box on the table said "I see you got something new"
Told her I got a good deal - response "I'm sure you did"
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" ... and that the 1885 Brownings, both hi-wall and lo-wall, cannot be thought of as buffalo guns cause the buffalo were not really around in large numbers by 1885." WaddWatsonE , I guess this is a quote from Mike Venturino ? Maybe a history lesson for Mr. Venturino is in order . John Browning built and designed what was later to be called the Winchester model 1885 by the Winchester manufacturing company which bought his patent . However , Mr. Browning designed and built this rifle in 1878 and at the Browning Brothers store located in Ogden Utah in which he was partnered with his brothers they sold over 600 of these future 1885's to the public . These rifles were used to hunt buffalo in the 1870's . Even back in the old days companies had marketing departments and they so-named this rifle built and designed in 1878 the model 1885 , I guess because it had a better ring or something to the name . The 1885 is a buffalo rifle .
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I think the key phrase is "in large numbers". I suspect that there were many unusual guns on the buffalo ranges... I am, by the way, a HUGE John Browning fan. My family rolls their eyes when we watch movies and I keep pausing it to point out all the Browning designed guns. I wish the 1885 was a "typical" buffalo rifle.
CC Griff
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I live just down the road from the Browning Museum, in Ogden, Utah. It's well worth a visit if you're ever in the area. I also really like the looks of the Browning 1885. They've got a cool one on display at the museum.
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Howdy Folks! I recently found this place and figured it would be a great place to pick up information about those days of yesteryear when the bison ran wild over the hills around me, a place called Missouri.
I have a Pederosoli 1874 Sharps in the 45-110 soon to be and a 45-90 John Bodine Rolling Block.
The lever rifle I have is dated an 1876 in the 50-90 caliber.............love those big bores I do.
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"Typical" may be a bit loose in reference to a buffalo rifle. I have an original buffalo rifle and it is chambered in 40-90 bottleneck. It was originally an 1874 Sharps that Walter Cooper of Bozeman, Montana Territory built with a Davenport barrel chambered in 40-90 Bottleneck. He chambered it specifically for buffalo hunting as that was a popular caliber in this part of the West. I don't know how many buffalo it has killed, but I know I have shot one buffalo, a few deer and a Black Angus cow with it.
I have also shot buffalo with a 45-70, but most buffalo were killed with other calibers than a 45-70.
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/114_1446.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/deadbuf.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/114_1450.jpg)
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/scan0003-2.jpg)
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I too wanted a .50 caliber in the 110 load but decided that my 50/95 lever gun would do me for know, after all you can only shoot one at a time gents.
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I thought that I'd resurrect this thread after over 8 years. I was the OP, asking about what features would be typical in an original buffalo rifle. Since then, I came across a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 at a low(ish) price. It has served me well over the years. I pretty much only do casual target shooting and plinking so that I can have the experience of shooting historical-type firearms.
Now, though, I find myself back here again, researching the same topic. I finally placed an order for a Shiloh Sharps and I now have a little more than a year to figure out exactly what I want. I've done a lot more reading in the past 8 years, so I have a much better idea of what I'm after, but I find it interesting that I'm still wrestling with the same topic.
I will comment that the replies that I got in 2011 have still helped me a lot. I just wish that the pictures were still available...
CC Griff
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As you have a serviceable .45-70, Time for something different. I really, really, really recommend the .50-70. Easy to load, superbly accurate, sufficiently powerful and easy on your shoulder. The vast majority of buffs were taken out by it and the .44-77. (The .44-77 is a modern reloaders, well, not nightmare, but it is a difficult beast.) The longer .50 case rounds have an aura of romance about them, but very few were actually built, recent research indicates less than 100 made it out of the Sharps factory.
But what do you want to do with this? Carry it in the field? Bench shoot? Silhouette? Long range past 500 yards? The gun needs to be tailored to your application. This is nothing new, the orginals were largely custom built as well.
I'd venture to say, for a general purpose single shot, I'd get a straight case .45 or .50 (Again, love the .50-70) with a 30" barrel, and a shotgun butt. Everything else is up to you.
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There is nothing any more difficult about the 44-77 than any other cartridge
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Drydock:
The venerable 50-70 is on my short list of cartridges (see below).
Ranch 13 has a little insight into my thoughts because we've discussed this project a little bit offline.
To fuel the discussion, and maybe fuel the fires of dispute, here's what I'm thinking of so far. Keep in mind that some of these thoughts change on a nearly hourly basis and I still have over a year to confirm the details.
1874 Hartford Model
32" heavy octagon, polished
Standard wood
Military buttstock
Distant Thunder Sporting Tang sight
Globe front sight
Semi-buckhorn barrel sight
Caliber... Let's see... I'm after a chambering relatively common in the early years of the buffalo hunt, which brings me down to three main calibers: 50-70, 44-77 and 50-90. Each has their positives and negatives, but I'm leaning towards 44-77 at this point. Brass is much more difficult to obtain, but otherwise it shouldn't be much more difficult to load. My final decision depends in part on how available brass is over the next year. 50-70 and 50-90 are readily available, which is a big advantage for those two.
My goal, remember, is to have a rifle typical of the period rather than for competition or hunting. I've made a couple of concessions to personal tastes in the barrel length and the front sight--those appear to be less common.
All of the above is, of course, subject to change (and likely will--several times). Again, that is just what I'm thinking at this moment, so feel free to convince me to change my mind...
CC Griff
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I would suggest that you get ahold of a copy of the book 'Sharps Rifle - The Gun that Shaped American Destiny' by Martin Rywell, if you do not have it already. In the book are Sharps catalog advertisements. I have read the book cover to cover about 4 times and still find bits of info.
The main reason for adding this, is that by your summary post about your desired configuration, it is not a 'typical' rifle from the period. According to the book, the standard barrel lengths for hunting and sporting rifles in any caliber were 26", 28" or 30" from the factory. I do not see an option for adding extra barrel length, just increasing the barrel weight. The only 32" barrels listed were on certain models of the Creedmoor rifles. It was my understanding that you wanted an atypical buffalo hunting style rifle. I therefore thought of this book for its very specific Sharps factory written ad's.
I also have a Pedersoli 45/70 Sharps 1874 with a 32" barrel. I really thought about cutting those 2" off to make it more period correct but then thought better of it.
Just food for thought.
I also like your decision about the 44/77 caliber. It was the earliest caliber next to the 50/70. The 50/70 - 1874 was a follow-up from the cartridge conversion period of Sharp military rifles. I always liked the 44/77 myself, too.
Good luck on your 'investment'. It is one that I could never make and now it is too late to enjoy.
BRS
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Thank you for the book suggestion! I'll look for that one.
As I mentioned, I knew that the barrel length is not standard and I'm still debating that (along with most of the other details). I've spent a fair amount of time with Volume 2 of Sharps Firearms, by Roy Marcot and Ron Paxton. There are a of rifles with 32 inch barrels pictured in that book and listed as having shipped in the early 1870s. As I mentioned, the globe front sights are also less common, but not unheard of either. I'm still thinking of the possibility of a blade front sight and a 30 inch barrel. Hmmm. A lot to think about.
As far as the investment, I didn't think that I would be able to spend that kind of money on a gun either. My lovely bride, however, wanted to spend nearly that much to celebrate my retirement next year. I decided that I could make up the difference with some overtime before I retire. We were in Big Timber last month and visited the shop. After we left, we had a long conversation about possibilities, then stopped back in before closing time to pay the deposit. Now the decision-making has begun. That's good, though. It will give me something to do while I wait...
Thanks again. I'll look for that book and wrestle with the options!
CC Griff
EDIT: The book is on order.
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I have the Sellers book but not the one by Marcot. Never did see that one written about or advertised, so I missed it. Amazon listing is $149.
In the Sellers book he has a lot of 1874's photo'd but he does not id the barrel length on most.
Anyway, your decision will be the best...
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We're in a reverse situation. I don't have the Sellers book and can't seem to bring myself to spend the money to buy one.
I just found out that Distant Thunder is closing shop and won't be making sights. That's very disappointing to me--I really liked his copy of the original tang sights. Well, there's one decision that I have to change... :'(
CC Griff
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Just to keep your juices flowing here's my 50x2 1/2' standard weight Shiloh.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48766931787_3ca4cea5b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hingNK)all 088 (https://flic.kr/p/2hingNK) by Oliver Sudden (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155475279@N02/), on Flickr
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Jim isn?t closing shop and don?t think he has any plans to do so.
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I'm basing it on this:
http://www.distantthunderbpcr.com/index.html (http://www.distantthunderbpcr.com/index.html)
CC Griff
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Well I?ll be dang.. :-\
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Well I?ll be dang.. :-\
Yeah, me too. I guess that I'm just late to the party again... :(
CC Griff
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I would about bet if you wanted one of those sights he would send one if he has it on hand
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I reached out to him via email and PM on the Shiloh forum. No answer yet (I'm gathering that he's out of town), but I'm hoping...
CC Griff
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He?s shooting at Lodi won?t be home until tomorrow night
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Just to keep your juices flowing here's my 50x2 1/2' standard weight Shiloh.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48766931787_3ca4cea5b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hingNK)all 088 (https://flic.kr/p/2hingNK) by Oliver Sudden (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155475279@N02/), on Flickr
MVA makes a hunters tang sight...its more expensive than Distant thunder though. Some folks just use the barrel sights.....pretty much what the ODG did.
Want to add a little about the Sharps and the 45-70. If you consult Sellers and Marcots recent book you'll find that most in this caliber were Business rifles which were popular with scouts and hunters.....especially the excursion hunts whereby nimrods shot them from moving trains and left them lying. Will add one more......if you know of a professional hunter that used a 45-70 let me know cause I or anyone else has been able to thus far.
Also, so far as early calibers the 50-70 had to reign supreme due to all the trapdoor conversions aka Needle Guns. That and it was very popular in the REmington Sporting rifles. Besides the very popular 44-77 in Sharps and Remingtons don't forget the 40-70 BN....it was one of the early ones and used quite a bit. Remington advised against it but all it needed was the 370 gr bullet used in the 40-90. Some modern writers have given it bad press but they shot it with old Goex in greaser chambers....I don't think it got a fair shake.
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Thanks again for the replies and advice, gents!
I did manage to get a line on a Distant Thunder sight, so that's my plan again. ;D The MVA vernier sight was my second choice.
I'm still wrestling with the caliber choice, but 44-77 is still at the top for now. One of the 50's is probably next on the list.
CC Griff
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These rifles are sort of like Lay's potato chips,,, you can't have just one. ;D
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These rifles are sort of like Lay's potato chips,,, you can't have just one. ;D
That's what I hear. I'm tempted to say, "I'll take one of each. Better make it two of each."
CC Griff
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Yup, have 5, one on the way and going to place an order for #7 this afternoon.. (#1 32in.standard weight barrel, 44-77 using Kirk's 7 degree reamer)
Nice part about ordering a Shiloh, pay your 250 deposit, and then you've got another year to save up the balance, or as you get a few coin gathered send it up and have them put it on your account.
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...you've got another year to save up the balance...
Or in my case make up my mind as to what I want. ;D
CC Griff
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Yup, have 5, one on the way and going to place an order for #7 this afternoon.. (#1 32in.standard weight barrel, 44-77 using Kirk's 7 degree reamer)
That will weigh what ? 11.5 lbs?
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maybe
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Yup.
Once was a time a Shiloh Sharps was out of my reach. Now I have six in the rack. Two are percussion .50 '63s. My go-to rifles for hunting are my Military Rifle and carbine, both in 50-70.
Why? Because what they hit goes down!
These rifles are sort of like Lay's potato chips,,, you can't have just one. ;D
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The more I use my 50-70, the less use I have for the 45-70. I understand why the Army decided to reduce the bore size however, if I need trajectory flatter than with the 50-70, I will grab my 405 WCF. A lot flatter but still a hard hitting cartridge.
Kevin
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You can never have too many Buffalo Rifles. I have several and 5 are actually 19th century guns and killed buffalo. 3 are 40-90 bottleneck guns converted by Walter Cooper in Montana Territory in the 1870's Another is a Sharps 50-70 carbine and a Meecham Conversion that weighs in a 17 1/2 pounds. I have killed some buffalo with them...
(http://i.imgur.com/oOuADdz.jpg) (https://imgur.com/oOuADdz)
(http://i.imgur.com/wkZ8DJC.jpg) (https://imgur.com/wkZ8DJC)
(http://i.imgur.com/EDqGD89.jpg) (https://imgur.com/EDqGD89)
(http://i.imgur.com/k50khWB.jpg) (https://imgur.com/k50khWB)
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Shrapnel:
I love it when you post pictures of guns in your collection! It's even more fun in that I'm reminded of getting to handle some of them. Thanks!
CC Griff
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Shrapnel, what is the rifle and scope on the far left of the second picture?
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Shrapnel, what is the rifle and scope on the far left of the second picture?
It is a C. Sharps/Shiloh rifle, one of the first 48 made in Montana after they moved here in the 80's. It is a 45-70 and the scope is a modern scope that Mike Venturino gave me...
(http://i.imgur.com/MmvjwTb.jpg) (https://imgur.com/MmvjwTb)
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There scope looks like an RHO? I know he did a review of RHO . I bought one based on his review
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There scope looks like an RHO? I know he did a review of RHO . I bought one based on his review
This might just be that scope. He treats me pretty good. I help with articles he does and he gives me some good deals . It is nice to know someone like him...
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Shrapnel:
I love it when you post pictures of guns in your collection! It's even more fun in that I'm reminded of getting to handle some of them. Thanks!
CC Griff
Since you were here I bought a bunch more...
1886 SRC in 45-70
(http://i.imgur.com/sVO1NVX.jpg) (https://imgur.com/sVO1NVX)
Another Colt Lightning large frame, this one is 50 Express, pictured with the 40-60 in back
(http://i.imgur.com/3CWvFga.jpg) (https://imgur.com/3CWvFga)
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Since you were here I bought a bunch more...
Well, I may have to stop by again sometime, just to catch up!
CC Griff