Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => Gun Reviews => Topic started by: JGard2010 on February 11, 2021, 08:55:21 AM
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Poll is based on six models that seem to be available in todays market. I'm looking to get some recommendations to get me starting in 45 LC and progress down the road.
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:) JGard2010 ;)
Just a tiny bit of trivia to help you along. There is no such thing as 45 "long" Colt. Or 45 LC for short. Even though the term is in somewhat common usage. There is only, and ever has been, "45 Colt"
Without having to go to a Gunplumber for modification, or extensive application of after-market parts, your best bet is the Japanese built Winchester 1873 replica. Much easier to live with "out of the box." Hence my "vote."
Stay Safe Out There
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If the 45 colt in the Winchester 73 is like the one I have in 44wcf, you won't be disappointed in the least bit.
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The Cimarron or Taylor 1873 would be my choice and from there whichever one feels best to you.
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I don't own a Winchester (or clone) 1873 rifle...more's the pity. But when I purchased my CAS rifle I chose the Pedersoli Colt Lightning rifle in .45 colt and do not regret it one bit. I shoot full power loads with heavy bullets, experience no blowback, and the rifle is fast and accurate. I restocked it in nice walnut to increase the length of pull and modified an early Hawken butt plate to suit, which I rust blued. This rifle suits my 6'2" frame and achieved married weight of 240 pounds.
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I just picked up a Uberti 1866 in .45 Colt, it runs right but has not seen Match use yet. My little Rossi 92 in .45 runs great, totally reliable and fast handling.
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If it's a consideration to you, the Big Boy Henry is not a historical copy.
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If it's a consideration to you, the Big Boy Henry is not a historical copy.
Not as historical copy, so not NCOWS legal.
And the Japchester (Miroku) 1873 is also on the NCOWS Unapproved List, if that matters at all. My wife, The Lovely Miss Theresa has used an Uberti 1873 in .45 Colt for at least a dozen years and it has provided nothing but satisfactory results. If I was going to subject a rifle to a diet of heavy loads, the 1894 Marlin would be my choice, but I am an 1873 guy for Cowboy loads.
A bit more trivia you didn't ask for: There was an interesting article in Winter Issue of Shootist Magazine, by Del Warren concerning the use of the "Long Colt" designation. The article shares some historical facts and the opinions of Mike Venturino, Elmer Keith and others. There WAS in the past a short .45 Colt cartridge which is referred to in Cartridges of the World as the .45 Colt Government.
.45 Colt headstamp and rim diameter with Schofield length case.
B.N.Scotty
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I shoot both a Marlin and a ‘73 both in .45c and loading 200gr RNFP with APP. IMHO the Marlin is easier, and takes less time to clean than the ‘73. Even with annealed cases the carrier on the ‘73 gets too dirty for me not to take it out and clean it well (maybe I’m OCD about it). YMMV
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I shoot both a Marlin and a ‘73 both in .45c and loading 200gr RNFP with APP. IMHO the Marlin is easier, and takes less time to clean than the ‘73. Even with annealed cases the carrier on the ‘73 gets too dirty for me not to take it out and clean it well (maybe I’m OCD about it). YMMV
you need a 44-40. I'm OCD about keeping my guns clean and I don't have to take the action apart on my 73s but every couple years or so and really don't need it then.
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The carrier block on Miss Theresa's .45 Colt 1873 gets blacker shooting 200 grain smokeless loads than my 1873s in either 38 or 44 WCF with Black Powder or A.P.P. As has been mentioned hundreds of times before, there was a reason for bottleneck cases!
I have read that the blowback/black carrier block syndrome, can be mitigated by shooting heavy loads, annealing cases, using 44 WCF brass resized to .45 Colt, etc. The soot on the carrier block does not effect function, I usually only take the sideplates off Miss Theresa's rifle at the end of the shooting season to clean the accumulated black gunk out of the innards.
B.N.Scotty
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:) JGard2010 ;)
Jumping in . . . AGAIN. With more trivia and such. The designation 45 Long Colt was a pipe dream of several scribes writing for the gun rags many years ago. the term stuck even though a "never never" of cartridges. The 45 Colt Government was developed to allow the ARMY to have a cartridge that would chamber in both Schofield and SAA issue side arms. The Colt Government was never called the 45 Colt "Short" either. Be wary of Parrots.
The soot buildup on a Toggle Link Rifle Carrier Block and in the Mortice can and WILL affect functionality. Once present and when it becomes gummy it can/will slow or stick the Carrier Block in the mortice to block the travel of carrier and jam the rifle.
Heavy loads and big heavy bullets can mitigate some Blow-By. Not necessarily eliminate it. Annealing the cases will ELIMINATE Blow-By. Forming 44-40 cases to 45 Colt can also eliminate Blow-By. 45 Colt cases, is stock form WILL NOT expand enough to seal mostly oversized chambers. Uberti built rifles usually have oversize chambers.
I take my information and data from 20+ years as a CAS Gunsmith. NOT from a singular example I may own. Lets ALL enjoy this game.
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Just a tiny bit of trivia to help you along. There is no such thing as 45 "long" Colt. Or 45 LC for short. Even though the term is in somewhat common usage. There is only, and ever has been, "45 Colt"
I bet you are a lot of fun at parties. Do you go around telling people there are no such things as "hot water heaters" or "CAC cards"? Besides Del Warren had an excellent article in the Winter issue of The Shootist on this issue. He ends with "Be sure we know when it is OK to say .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Short Colt, .45 Colt Government, .45 M1887 Military Ball or .45 S&W and .45 Schofield."
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Right up to the point some drunk accuses me of saying or doing something I didn't. ;D
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As some people are steering you towards 44/40, I will put in my 2 cents worth.
I have an original Winchester 73 in 44/40, Winchester never made a rifle in 45 colt.
It was made in 1882, I had it relined and some new springs put in. I've shot probably
a couple thousand rounds through it. It's as smooth as silk, and works perfect. So I
have about the same or less money than a Italian repro, that is going to have to be
slicked up before you use it. And finally if cowboy shooting slowly fades away, what is
going to be the wiser investment, an original that has never went down in price or a
repro that there are thousands to be sold. Rock Island auction sells a lot of originals
and parts (if needed) are available off ebay. Just my opinion, I love shooting mine with
real black and it's 139 years old (The Real Deal)
BTB
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First post in this thread, recommendations for a rifle in .45 Colt, although I'm sure the O.P. welcomes and enjoying all the expert additional input.
Coffinmaker, I'm sure Elmer Keith would be impressed by your 20+ years as a CAS Gunsmith, and I would have loved to see you call him a "parrot" face to face!
"sit back and watch", B.N.Scotty
All posted in the interest of good fun!
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I voted for the marlin. Both of my JM 94s were bought used. I added one piece firing pins, played with some springs and replaced the safeties with a faux screw and a saddle ring. Other than an episode of the feared marlin jam my coping saw repair is still doing well after 25 years. My uberti 1873s all needed work out of the box, too strong springs, too soft screws, a bad loading gate- bad bbl-out of spec toggle links. The marlin is easier to tear down, fewer parts and made in America. Any new gun in todays market is a pig in a poke, might be 100%, might be a lemon or somewhere in between. And unfortunately companies don’t stand behind their products like they once did. Good luck on whatever you decide to buy.
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I had an 1894 Remington/Marlin in .44 Magnum returned to the factory in 2019 that had a void, for the lack of a better term, halfway down the barrel in the rifling. In that case anyway, they stood behind their product. I would think the new acquisition of Marlin by Ruger would be a good thing?
A Marlin is a good choice beyond Cowboy Shooting as a great tree-stand gun, that doesn't even look too out of place with a compact scope.
B.N.Scotty
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I shoot both a Marlin and a ‘73 both in .45c and loading 200gr RNFP with APP. IMHO the Marlin is easier, and takes less time to clean than the ‘73. Even with annealed cases the carrier on the ‘73 gets too dirty for me not to take it out and clean it well (maybe I’m OCD about it). YMMV
Yes. Yes you are.
wM1
::)
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:) Ira ;)
Happy Saturday !! Rest assured, I would have absolutely no problem walking up to Elmer to point out his error. Same same Mike Venturino. And a few others. Fame and recognition does not equate to "right." Just means more people read your stuff.
Let's also remember, Elmer blew apart several guns pushing pressure to levels way past what the guns were intended to stand. That isn't necessarily real bright. He just got lucky. Some heroes aren't necessarily all they are quacked up to be :D
I have no idea who "Del Warren" is. Describing cartridges by their historically correct designation is not wrong. Schofield is Schofield, S & W was a correct designation. Sever references to Colt cartridges are also correct. No argument. My only irritation is describing something as "Short Colt" which never existed and or "Long Colt" which never existed. If one is to make a claim that "something" is really OK, one should first insure the historical accuracy. Not just picking up on long repeated erroneous lore.
Stay Safe Out There
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Ditto + to what Coffinmaker said
Rev. Chase
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Happy Saturday back at ya Coffinmaker! I'm so sorry that you are irritated by such a small thing as someone using firearm terminology that is offensive to some (you) and accepted by others. There seem's to be plenty of things to be irritated by in today's world without sweating the small sh#t. I personally don't use the term Long Colt but if someone does I don't feel the need to correct them .
FYI: Del Warren is the proprietor of James Country Mercantile in Liberty MO, a business specializing in Old West and Civil War clothing and accouterments, he has been in the game a LONG time. Not a famous writer, whose opinions you don't value anyway.
With all due respect, Coffinmaker Sir!
B.N.Scotty
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I will just call it a 45. If someone wants to know which I am talking about, they look to see if the gun has a slide or a cylinder. :D
As an aside relating to names, this morning the crossword puzzle had the clue: "Revolver, in old slang". I'm thinking Sixgun? But it turned out to be Roscoe. :)
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Coffinmaker, How about a .45 Just Right Colt? Must be referring to the ACP.
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:) Well . . Golly Ira ;)
I must admit, I do get annoyed with the miss-application of terminology when applied to firearms. As such, the term "Clone" for Single Action Replicas is like fingernails down a blackboard. Modern made replicants are NOT perfect "clones" and that includes modern manufactured Colt.
I also admit, I do try to provide correct information. What any individual does with that information, once provided is entirely up to them. I don't harp on them. I have also been in many "gun shops" and providers of militaria to find the proprietors of same were as much PARROTS as others at repeating miss-information. Often, we all are guilty of equating "Fame" to "Knowledge." There have been many times in my sordid past, I didn't have the slightest bit of knowledge about something and was most willing and compelled to state same. Never been one to blow smoke up yer skirt. If I have offended by questioning your heroes, oh well. Here's another. There were no "Jeeps" prevalent in the old west to help "good guys" catch bad guys. No matter what Roy Rogers portrayed, didn't happen. OOPSies.
Stay Safe Out There
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:) Well .... Heck ;)
Now that we have hammered .45 Colt into a Two by Four infiniteum (sp) . . . .
Howz about we get back to the OP and his request for help selecting a CAS rifle in 45 Colt?? And at this point I go back to my original suggestion of a Miroku Winchester '73 for the very least amount of post purchase attention.
If, however, one wants to go really fast, a Uberti built '73 has a massive amount of after-market "speed" parts available. Gobs in fact.
Stay Safe Out There
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Maybe not a consideration for the O.P., but the Miroku/Winchester 1873 is disapproved for NCOWS. Sad, because they are beautifully made rifles!
Coffinmaker, I'm not too hurt by the fact you don't choose to believe the same sources as I do. Your comments about repeating miss-information reminds me of the saying "History is Fables Repeated".
B.N.Scotty
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The Marlin is your darlin'!
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Maybe not a consideration for the O.P., but the Miroku/Winchester 1873 is disapproved for NCOWS. Sad, because they are beautifully made rifles!
Coffinmaker, I'm not too hurt by the fact you don't choose to believe the same sources as I do. Your comments about repeating miss-information reminds me of the saying "History is Fables Repeated".
B.N.Scotty
Seems like a bit of silliness from what ever an ncows is, but I don't recall the question being anything other than a recommendation on a 45 colt rifle..
Something if you really want to get historically correct about, a 45 colt chambered rifle never happened as a mass produced item until the 1980's...
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NCOWS is the National Congress of Old West Shootists. The O.P. did not say if he was contemplating shooting $A$$ or NCOWS, didn't want him to spend a pile O money on a rifle just to find out it was disapproved if he goes the NCOWS route.
No .45 colt rifles and no Vaqueros, but some concessions have to be made to be practical. Probably didn't see too many people pushing a guncart around in the O.W. either.
B.N.Scotty
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What is it they find objectionable to the Winchester 73's produced in the Miroku plant?
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NCOWS doesn't allow short stroked 1873 rifles and the more recent Mirokus come from the factory with a shorter stroke than the originals.
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NCOWS doesn't allow short stroked 1873 rifles and the more recent Mirokus come from the factory with a shorter stroke than the originals.
Correct! Even though it is only a wee bit (technical terminology) shorter, no real advantage in my mind.
I voted to approve the Miroku 1873, but was on the losing end.
B.N.Scotty
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Seems odd the "stroke" of a rifle lever would disqualify it, but ammunition loaded with bullets weighing 50 grains less, than the only factory loadings available, and propelled by smokeless to be fine, never mind the non availability of a rifle chambered in 45 colt..
Strange world we live in.
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"Strange world we live in", and getting stranger every day!
B.N.Scotty
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Another vote for the Marlin. Handsome, rugged, dependable, accurate with BP and Plus P loadings, and of all the rifle listed, by far the easiest to clean, and from the breech like all the best designs. The late Remlins (after 2015) are nice rifles as well. Sure be interesting to see what Ruger does with them.
In the .45, avoid Starline brass unless you have an annealer.
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It will be interesting to see what this next generation of Marlins are like.
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:) Ira . . . et ALL ;)
I too/also have never understood the NCOWS prohibition of the Miroku replica '73. Sure, the lever throw is a tad ('nother technical term) shorter than an "Original" '73, the rifle isn't actually "Short Stroked." It's just the geometry found most effective by the engineers at Miroku. Much nicer "out of the box" than a Uberti.
I built competition rifles for 20+ years and the only advantage the Uberti offering has is the mountain of available "Speed" parts. Had the Miroku been available at the time the Uberti was, I have no doubt there would have been a pile of speed parts for it as well.
I too await the next iteration of Marlins will be like. Marlin can be fine rifles indeed. It's a shame what happened to their quite over the last 10 or so years. Cross our fingers.
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Seems like a bit of silliness from what ever an ncows is, but I don't recall the question being anything other than a recommendation on a 45 colt rifle..
Something if you really want to get historically correct about, a 45 colt chambered rifle never happened as a mass produced item until the 1980's...
Not silly at all if you understand the reasoning. If you allow a gun with a factory shorter stroke just because it says Winchester on it you open up a whole big can of worms. Would have to allow the Beretta Renegade. Why because they are factory instead of aftermarket installed by a user or gunsmith? We already have all kinds of alterations available from the various importers of "guns that never were" and if you don't draw the line pretty darn clear in the sand you wind up ruining the whole intention of the discipline which is to provide a shooting experience closely mimicking what people would have experienced in the real cowboy era. The recoil and shooting experience between 45 colt and 44-40 isn't going to be noticable. and the recoil between 38 special and 32-20 isn't either. You have to allow what people can get factory ammo for and reload comfortable to have the discipline at all so your comment about caliber has no bearing on the reasoning for not allowing the short stroked Miroku 1873.
As a perfect example look at the apparent crap show that went on with PRS last fall. PRS with the factory rifle category where they had just the price point of 2500 dollar limit on a factory rifle. All of a sudden now GAP and MPA offer a precision custom rifle at a price of 2499 that will shoot side by side with any 5 or 6 thousand dollar custom built rifle. While it worked out great allowing people to get essentially custom rifle for a great price it completely makes a mockery out of the production rifle class. They might as well not even have the category now.
Know what you are talking about before talking down on something and what the user plans to do with the rifle has a bearing on the recommendation.
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Anybody else notice the OP
JGard2010 has just two posts Feb 10 and Feb 11 ( this poll )
and after 37 replies of semantics and or terminology , NCOWS approved/unapproved, suggest optional calibers, manufactures versions & merits , mention of a Clothing supplier , short strokes Etc.
all in 4 short days in February.....
My question(s) where did he go and what did he choose ??? , my guess since he has NOT been active since February 14. this poll and entire thread went unheeded ....
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But Major, we were all really bored in February!
B.N. Scotty
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We were ? :) I don't recall
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:) I don't know about anybody else, exactly, but I do know (I think) I was really bored in February. What of February I can remember (not much) that is ;)
There is the possibility the whole thread initially started out as a Trolling expedition to stir things up. Or Not.
HAPPY MONDAY by the way
Stay Safe Out There
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A”little” off topic, but not much.. You all were discussing the term “long colt”. Did I not read somwhere that the term originated in the 1800swhen a guy would go into a gun shop and ask for a box of 45 shorts?(meaning he wanted 45 Schofield rounds, or a box of 45 longs meaning 45Colt?
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A”little” off topic, but not much.. You all were discussing the term “long colt”. Did I not read somwhere that the term originated in the 1800swhen a guy would go into a gun shop and ask for a box of 45 shorts?(meaning he wanted 45 Schofield rounds, or a box of 45 longs meaning 45Colt?
Now there is a subject that has never been brought up or discussed before, Coffinmaker!
B.N. Scotty
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Another vote for the affordable Rossi 92 in 45 Colt. Stock sights are very accurate.
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Original OP is long gone ...
Here is a new poll :)
What happened to JGard2010 and his quest for the forgone 45 Colt conclusion
A. Bought an AK-47
B. Opted for a "Big Boy"...................double burger w/ fries
C. Joined the anti's .....
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While we’re ’speculatin.
1. Jumped hosses midstream and bought a .38?
2. Decided cas was too complicated.
3. Joined the French Foreign Legion to forget.
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;) Nah. Actually, inna 1800s a Guy would go into the local Hardware store and General Emporium and ask for a box of "45" Shorts, meaning he really wanted some Bloomers with a bit more "Crotch Space." ::) I betcha.
I vote for the French Foreign Legion. They'd issue a rifle. And some "45" shorts 8)
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I just vote for the Marlin 94. I think it's the best choice from this list ;)
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Here he is!
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I think the OP opted for a Porter lever action turret rifle, had a chain fire and was laid to rest.