Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: Tuolumne Lawman on June 11, 2022, 10:41:19 AM
-
It looks like I have an opportunity to acquire a matched pair (consecutive serial numbers 72 and 73) of Richards Type I conversions in .44 Colt (BHA). I believe they were made by Jay Strite or Millington. They are about 95%..They are not ASMs.
The owner has had them for years, and has teased me for the last 5 years, knowing I am a conversion nut. I feel the price is fair at $2,000for the pair and 500 rounds of ammo. I need for some cash that is owed me to complete the deal.
-
Sounds Awesome.
-
That sounds like a fine pair. Be sure to post photos if you get them.
-
:) TL :o
TOTAL AWSOMENESS!! Heck, Stick up a Bank, Hold up a Liquor Store, Mortgage yer First Born!! Absolutely snap up that Pair. Two K for the pair is an OUTSTANDING price. Plastic Fantiatic, Sell your CAR!!
Absolutely POST PHOTO'S
Play Safe Out There
-
About maybe 15 years ago, I bought a Type 1 made by Kenny Howell
Even then it was about a grand on your donor gun to custom build you one....
as I recall I bought mine second market for $700 which was screaming deal....
2000 clams for two ? U-betcha, were for I wish could get in on that deal :)
-
Looking forward to seeing them! Now, TL, I know your penchant for buying neat guns and then later selling them to fund other stuff. Therefore, before you even get them, please put me first in line as next owner. ;D ;D
-
Its official! I will finally pick up the pair of "Real" conversions, Truth and Justice. I also get 500 rounds of Cowboy loaded .44 Colt ammo. Once I get them, I will post pictures to see if we can figure out if the are: Kenny Howell, Bob Millington, Jay Strite, or John Gren conversions.
I really don't care whose they are. My understanding is they are about 20 years old or more. I have known about them for about 4 or five years, and he has had them for some time from the original owner.
-
Oh, now that sounds like a great pair. Looking forward to seeing them.
-
The Thick Plottens!!! Excitement abounds!!
-
Tuolumne,
You are a luck man. You have provided the rest of us with some very fine and interesting firearms through the years.
Can't wait to see these 'new' Richards I's.
Congrats and hope you like them as much as, your other conversion, if not more. True Richards I handguns, in 44Colt, WOW.
-
I too am looking forward to seeing your brace....
I was lucky about 15 -16 years ago and got a Kenny Howell Type 1 ....
I also still have the #3 Russian , I bought from you :)
-
Oh, these sound great. Looking forward to seeing the pics once you get them.
-
Introducing "Truth" and "Justice"! Serial numbers no. 71 and 72. The host pistols were Armi San Marcos from Cimarron (The bottom of the barrel says "ASM Fredericksburg Texas". It was understood by the seller that they were done by Bob Millington in the 1990s, and the engraving was was supposedly done by Frank "Texas Jack" Lehman in the same time period. I knew Frank, and he had engraved several of my guns back then, and it is the script and pattern he preferred.
They are well used, with honest wear, which is fine with me. The action is slick, with about a 2 to 2.5 pound trigger pull. The front sights appear to be from Mexican brass coins cut to size. The grips have been shaved down to make them thinner, but I plan on putting faux ivory on them. Need to figure out is I use Pietta or Uberti grips.
(https://i.imgur.com/iVp0fC3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fricH8v.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zFXNNuh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HTp4sxr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gEtExJK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ls8pThQ.jpg)
-
I'll see if the grips from my Uberti 1860 Type II are close, or if my Saber River 1860 Pietta grips are closer.
-
Excellent!
-
Those are beautiful. I like the natural wear on them. The engraving looks great! You scored on those. Congrats.
If you want ivory grips, how about Gripmaker grips? Trace the grip frame shape on paper and he'll send you the appropriate ones to fit to them.
-
Those are great looking. Sure they will be a joy to own and shoot.
-
That "Truth" and "Justice" looks really familiar. I'm wondering if I've seen a picture of these somewhere? On further inspection, they look to me like ASM conversions with maybe a new or redone hammer. If they had started off as percussion, the frame would be stepped for a rebated cylinder.
-
I agree Abilene, they appear to have the smaller diameter ejector rods Like the ASM conversions.
Just the right amount of patina and looking good. If you go faux ivory, it should look aged too.
-
if you guys are looking to buy another conversion, Turnbull Restorations has a USFA '51 Navy on their used gun inventory for only four thousands dollars! inflation? Bob
-
if you guys are looking to buy another conversion, Turnbull Restorations has a USFA '51 Navy on their used gun inventory for only four thousands dollars! inflation? Bob
Its a beauty and I am assuming that it sports real ivory handle but sheesh. It's a pretty penny.
-
The cylinder and frame are stepped like a 1860 percussion. The pictures just don't show it well. I had a pair of the ASM 1860, and they were not stepped like these. Then there is the hand stamped serial numbers.
-
From Walt Kirst:
"Bernie,
I'm not familiar with John Gren's work but I can definately say they aren't the work of Jay or Bob. The dead giveaway is the threaded end cap on the ejector housing and the long low angle slot in the housing They both used a solid cylindrical end and a sharper angle slot, like the original Colt.
Bob Millington was an excellent engraver and Strite didn't engrave, but the engraving could have been done after.
Nice find, I dont think anyone is making historical Richard's 1st any longer.
Regards,
Walt "
My response:
"Thanks, I don't think it was Kenny, as I believe he marked his. That leaves John Gren, or maybe. someone else. Tghere was a guy named Cramer or something like that that did them in the 1990s. The engraving was done by Frank "Texas Jack" Lehman in the 90s."
-
A spectacular pair!
-
Well, that is certainly interesting. Another oddness is that I am only aware of Cimarron having imported cartridge guns from ASM, not percussion. But the BIG question, which remains to be answered, is which hand gets Truth and which hand gets Justice? I mean, you WILL be shooting them gunfighter, right? :)
-
Perhaps Dave Anderson ? ASM's were his go to :-\
-
Could be Anderson. He was the fifth guy I was trying to think of (instead of Cramer...LOL). IIRC, he was based here in California.
As much as I would like to do gunfighter, since a stroke I had 4 or so years ago, while I am 95% recovered, I don't have that dexterity in my left hand.
-
Anderson was a MASTER with ASM's, he imported the parts and built some beauties.
I had one that he assembled for USPFA and was shown a "Shot" in 1993.
I had traded for it, and later sold it for.... ;) well ! lets say I did not get hurt :)
-
After some research in Adlers book on conversions old and current I really believe it is an Anderson. He sold lots to the SASS crowd here in California in the 1990s before ASM shut down his supply of parts.
-
Anderson, I am sure. Look at this one of his River Junction sold. Same threaded end of ejector;
https://www.riverjunction.com/5424
-
There you go :) Dave did nice work with ASM's
At one time I had decided I'd like to have one example of each of the then available custom makers.
I was nearly there, the only one I never obtained was John Gren..
I had the afore mentioned "Anderson USPFA Shot Show prototype" (ASM) that gun was used extensively in NCOWS matches. Sadly, it's whereabouts now unknown the owner passed in 2021.
My Millington example was a thin plate Remington on a Euroarms donor,
I also had your first Uberti thick Plate Remy conversion, do you recall that trade? I sold both of those.
The Strite Navy conversion I had was from his Eagle Pass days before he moved and teamed with Walt Kirst in Texas. I traded it away after I got over the notion of the collection.
I still have the Kenny Howell 1st Model Richards
and my Gary Barnes Navy conversion.
I never heard of "Cramer" except on Jerry Steinfeld ;D
-
:) Hey TL ;)
I'm in with The Major. Dave Anderson was "American Frontier Firearms." Built some really top notch conversions with ASM parts. Actually, if I remember correctly, it wasn't ASM that shut him down. It was his "X" Real nasty divorce.
I actually wanted a pair of his guns when I was deep into ASM conversions. At one time I had 11. Nine of them were actually my "parts stash" to keep the best pair running. They were, without doubt, the MOST ACCURATE .38s I ever owned. Either of my "Go-To" pair would "clover leaf" five rounds off a rest.
People are Still Contagious. Avoid Them
-
Remember the ammo that Dave came up with? I think it was basically 44 Russian with a 44 Colt rim. Wonder how much of that ever got made.
-
Well, very interesting. Dave Anderson was actually the first to attempt to produce conversions in limited small production runs.. He used ASM 1860s as the host guns, and eventually contracted to ASM to produce stepped 1860 cartridge cylinders and some other parts. This was before ASM started to produce Type I conversions of their own. around 2000.
I discovered that Truth and Justice's cylinders are NOT converted percussion cylinders! They are beefier, and actually almost the same diameter as Uberti's cartridge conversion's cylinders. When ASM started producing conversions, they used the shortcut of not having stepped cylinders or frames. Anderson, however, had ASM make stepped 1860 cartridge cylinders, and had the corresponding step on the frame. As I have said already, truth and Justice have have these stepped cylinders.
-
Located one ASM 1860 grip on ebay. Need to find one more to replace the Bubba'ed grips. Checked, and Uberti 1860 grips are really close, so I may just pick up a used 1860 Uberti grip and fit it until I find another ASM grip.
-
ASM never produced the Type I conversion, in that the backing plate was not shrouded.
They did more of a Type 2 backing plate with an 1860 grip, & the dia. of the ejector rod was about 3/32
(undersize) on the 36 Cal gun. (that was corrected to some extent on the 44 Calibers)
If one put a 51 or 61 grip on the 36 Caliber, it made reasonable copy of a 61. However, to my knowledge there were no original 1861 Richard's, as the Richard & Mason were then in production.
Dave Anderson did produce Type 1's as Adler's book shows and they were the BOMB.
ASM though AFF provided his raw parts. There also a very fine SAA produced, this raised the notice & ire of COLT and lawsuit was imposed. This and Dave's personal domestic issue was the death nell for American Frontier Firearms.
-
From my research, the two dead giveaways that these are Anderson guns are: The shallow step on the cylinder, which is larger than percussion cylinders and actually purpose built by ASM as a cartridge revolver specifically for Anderson, and the threaded breech end of the ejector rod. If you look at pictures of Anderson guns, ALL have these features.
The low hand stamped serial number, and lack of markings on the barrels, show they are early samples.
-
Beautiful !
-
I figured they were Anderson's work; I have no doubt.
They are a fine pair :)
-
...If one put a 51 or 61 grip on the 36 Caliber, it made reasonable copy of a 61. However, to my knowledge there were no original 1861 Richard's, as the Richard & Mason were then in production.
Right, but they made ONE 1861 Type 2 Richards, as shown in McDowell's book.
Dave Anderson did produce Type 1's as Adler's book shows and they were the BOMB.
ASM though AFF provided his raw parts. There also a very fine SAA produced, this raised the notice & ire of COLT and lawsuit was imposed. This and Dave's personal domestic issue was the death nell for American Frontier Firearms.
Adler says the sale of ASM to AWA in 2000 was why he lost his parts supply. Probably a combination of things.
-
I actually am very glad they have the slightly beefier purpose built cylinders. Less chance of a notch "blow out" happening.
-
Well, I really don't like the way the 1860 grips were cut down to make them thinner. I located one ASM 1860 walnut grip on ebay. Haven't found another, but did come across a complete ASM 1851 grip, so I have it on the other one for now (until I find another ASM or even a Uberti 1860 grip (which is close enough).
Hope to finally use them at the local match in a couple weeks. SWEET!
-
Anyone have an un-loved Uberti 1860 grip (wood only) that they would like to part with? I checked, and the Uberti can be fitted to the ASM. I thought of new, but last time I checked, VTI was out. I just sent them another check stock email.
-
I do, probably more than one, if I can find the one from my engraved Open Top. They're yours if you want them.
-
Thanks! That would be awesome. Let me know and I'll send you some $$$ and mention you as the source of one of the grips when I do the Cowboy Chronicle article about these.
The article will lead off with me being teased by a shooting pard 4 or 5 years ago, wanting me to buy Truth and Justice. It will chronicle the acquisition, including the skinny grips, and transformation into my main match pair. Then I will go into a history of Anderson, his guns, and his efforts to make the first "production, semi custom" 1860 conversions, (meant to be cheaper than Howell or Millington), all before ASM introduced production 1860 .44 Colts in 1990.
-
Question, do any of these guys mark their work? I just got a Uberti 1851 conversion with a relined barrel but have no clue who put it together. I'm going to put a Kirst ejector on it and it will probably need a taller front sight.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsvi/large/036b.jpg)
Thanks! That would be awesome. Let me know and I'll send you some $$$ and mention you as the source of one of the grips when I do the Cowboy Chronicle article about these.
The article will lead off with me being teased by a shooting pard 4 or 5 years ago, wanting me to buy Truth and Justice. It will chronicle the acquisition, including the skinny grips, and transformation into my main match pair. Then I will go into a history of Anderson, his guns, and his efforts to make the first "production, semi custom" 1860 conversions, (meant to be cheaper than Howell or Millington), all before ASM introduced production 1860 .44 Colts in 1990.
Don't worry about paying me, just let me know when the article prints so I can look for it. PM your address to me and I'll send it this week.
-
The short answer is yes-sometimes
My Kenny Howell 2nd Gen. 1st Richards is marked under the barrel - R&D Beloit, WI USA by hand.
I acquired the gun about 2006 and the precious owner had it built on his donor in 1998 or 99.
The Dave Anderson ASM sourced USPFA 1993 Shot Show gun- 2nd Model Richards, was only marked
USPFA Hartford, Connecticut. roll marked on the top of the barrel no other marks
The Millington Remy was B. Millington/ArmSport LLC , also had the Pietta FAP Diamond on the grip frame otherwise shaved of FLLI Pietta- Made in Italy- Black Powder Only.
My Gary Barnes Navy conversion has no marks on my donor Pietta 61 Navy- Kirst (totally shaved by request)
I never had a John Gren but handled one once, it was marked as shown in the photo below
I had to look for it though as I had not recalled the markings.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/f8BVX5J.jpg)
The Gang. Taken before I replaced the second shaved grip.
-
Here are Truth and Justice after I replaced the shaved grips. One is an 1860 ASM grip from eBay, and the other a modified Uberti 1860 grip from Craig C,
(https://i.imgur.com/RNFifmU.jpg)
-
Those grips are a vast improvement over the shaved ones. Good job fitting them.
-
I agree with Will....
-
A fine pair!
-
Much improved on the grips.
-
SUPER improvement TL :D
-
While the Anderson's will be my primary main match pistols, replacing the Uberti Type IIs, my pair of Kirst/Pietta .45 Schofield 1860s (8" Saber River and 5.5" Sheriff model) will still be my back-up pair. The Saber River is so dang beautiful, it just has to be shot sometimes! I am going to an annual match in October, and I would guess half the stages will be shot with the .44 Andersons, and half with the .45 Kirsts.
I have one of Walt's .45 ACP cylinders for the Piettas and it is a hoot. I use the same 230 grain RN lead bullet for my ,45 ACP WW231 Wild Bunch 1911 loads, and my Trail Boss .45 Schofield loads for my conversions. Both cylinders print about the same! I am doing a Cowboy Chronicle article on the Kirst 1860 .45 ACP cylinder as a two for one gun in the 5.5" sheriff model, using also the .45 Colt cylinder.
-
Question, do any of these guys mark their work? I just got a Uberti 1851 conversion with a relined barrel but have no clue who put it together. I'm going to put a Kirst ejector on it and it will probably need a taller front sight.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsvi/large/036b.jpg)
Don't worry about paying me, just let me know when the article prints so I can look for it. PM your address to me and I'll send it this week.
Sorry for delayed response. Early Anderson's were unmarked, Later ones marked American Frontier Firearms. Gren marks his with his name, Jay Strite had a raven stamp on the barrel, IIRC, and Howell marked his. I do not know about Millington.
-
Sorry for delayed response. Early Anderson's were unmarked, Later ones marked American Frontier Firearms. Gren marks his with his name, Jay Strite had a raven stamp on the barrel, IIRC, and Howell marked his. I do not know about Millington.
Good information in these threads. Thanks.
-
Sorry for delayed response. Early Anderson's were unmarked, Later ones marked American Frontier Firearms. Gren marks his with his name, Jay Strite had a raven stamp on the barrel, IIRC, and Howell marked his. I do not know about Millington.
We're thinking Howell did that one. The conversion ring and gate are color cased and screwed to the frame. Gonna put a Kirst ejector on it.
-
Well, after family reunions, vacations, a death in the family (at my house!), and finally getting COVID after escaping it for over two years, I will get a chance to shoot Truth and Justice at End of Track annual match in two weeks. Also going to shoot my Kirst Saber River and its 5.5 inch 1860 little brother. Four days of shooting, s a good time will be had by all. Pics will be forthcoming.
-
Patience is a virtue!
-
It's good that things have settled down for you. Looking forward to your photos.
-
WELL........ >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Took Truth and Justice to the range to test fire before leaving for the annual match Wednesday. UGH! 75% light strikes and fail to fire. The springs are so light, the hammer won't set off the primers. Someone "hour glassed them" to make the action light. Fortunately I had two new ASM mainsprings in my parts stash, so I took care of that problem.
Second problem, one has a bent firing pin, that causes it to stick in the ferrule and not rebound, stuck in the primer. I don't want to try too hard to straighten it, as if I snap it, I'll have to have a machinist make one. The other firing pin also sticks, I suspect it is peened from dry firing. I'll take them apart again, and polish them up to make them work freely.
Third, the firing pin springs are weak, so i will need to match them up with some kind of replacement.
In fairness, the guy I got them from is a pard, and would not screw me. He actually had them as an investment, having bought them 10 or 15 years ago, with 500 rounds of ammo. He still had all the 500 rounds .44 Colt ammo when he sold them to me, confirming he never fired them (He is a .38 shooter).
I'm still happy with the deal, as these are minor fixes, but sure glad I checked before I went to the match!!!!!
-
If you want to lighten those springs without modifying them, these Singl;e Action Army hammer Spring Spacers from Brownell's work great (https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/hammer-parts/hammer-spacers/6-pak-hammer-spring-spacers-sku078025006-339-1600.aspx?sku=078-025-006). I cut them in half so I can do two springs with one spacer. You can then adjust the tension with the hammer spring screw. Careful not to strip the screw out of the trigger guard.
-
Well TL, that's sort of a bummer, but like you said, good thing you didn't discover these things while 'on the clock'. I've heard of ASM firing pins mushrooming. You might need to have some made, but seems like it shouldn't be too hard. Do those hammers have the screw in the back that retracts the face of the hammer when screwed in, like ASM hammers? Some folks found their hammer faces were not all the way forward and that caused light strikes also, though yours does sound like the hammer springs.
I use various lighter main springs in all my guns, but I put a #10 split washer under the main spring. I can 'tune' the spring tension with the screw like Marshall Wil mentioned above with those neoprene spacers.
-
The new mainsprings are great. Don't need to lighten them at all. I have used leather spacers before, but not going to need them.
I gently tapped the bent firing pin almost straight, and polished my firing pins so they don't stick in the recoil shield. I made replacement firing pin springs by cutting short pieces from an AR15 buffer retainer detent spring.
Next project will be undoing the "hair triggers" that someone put on them. The top of the triggers are flat, and really don't engage the sear notches on the hammers. You can make them firing just thinking about it! I'll stone a slight angle on them so they actually engage the hammer notches.
I should be good to go after I add a pound or two to the trigger pulls.
After the match, I'm going to go to a local machinist I know (who fabricates old gun parts), and I'll have him make me a couple spares. I already have two spare ASM cylinder hands and two spare ASM locking bolts.
I will say that when they did go off, they were dead nuts on at 25 yards with the Load-X 210 grain .44 Colt ammo.
-
Glad to hear you have such a good handle on making them work right. From the sound of it, they're an outstanding match pair.
-
Test fired some primed cases Nice big primer dimples and no stuck firing pins.....Now for the hair triggers....
-
Sounds like you'll have these things purring like a kitten soon.
-
I recently had my engraved conversions at a gunsmith because the triggers were getting too light, and I don't trust myself to work on sears. But honestly, for competition this past year I now slip-hammer, or "trap-the-trigger" for all my pistol shots, so the light triggers wouldn't be an issue. But still...nicer to have a proper pull.